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Defunding the Police?

Yep, it does. Possibly more than a bit.

But you know what they say; aim for the stars and you might hit the moon.
Very unlikely. The moon covers 0.000531% of the celestial sphere. If you aim at a random piece of sky, you have about that chance to hit the Moon. :tonguea:

In other words, if there is open discussion of and calls for defunding, disbandment and abolishing, then more reasonable reforms that would otherwise be labelled drastic will not seem (or indeed be) so drastic and maybe stand a better chance of actually being implemented.
The danger being that even more reasonable proposals get lumped in with the crazies. For an example of the crazies, former Democratic GA gubernatorial candidate and a possible Veep candidate Stacey Abrams now basically wants police to let perps shoot them with a taser and not be allowed to shoot the perp.

To my mind reforms are needed, and it seems to me that in the past they have been blocked. As such, if calls for unrealistic or too much change lead to more modest reforms that help to dislodge the blockages that’s a good thing.
I agree that some reforms are needed. But a lot of proposals I have seen are either going too far or are going in the entirely wrong direction.

Its like if you go to your boss and you ask for a pay rise. Boss says no way can I afford to pay you what you’re asking but......I’ll give you a lesser pay rise. It can be a sort of win win if handled well by all sides. Compromise in other words.
It's a fine balance to strike. If you go in and demand some outrageous sum, it might backfire. Same goes for "defund and disband".
 
Second, a “safe” world is not one in which the police keep black and other marginalized people in check through threats of arrest, incarceration, violence and death.
They are not threatening "black and other marginalized people" in check through these threats, but criminals.
Kaba is really being racist for equating black people with criminals.

We are not abandoning our communities to violence. We don’t want to just close police departments. We want to make them obsolete.
Yeah right!

We can build other ways of responding to harms in our society. Trained “community care workers” could do mental-health checks if someone needs help. Towns could use restorative-justice models instead of throwing people in prison.
So what would "restorative justice" look like for say murder?
And mental-checks sometimes escalate to violence. Send mental health care workers sure, but they still need police backup in case the crazy has a weapon.

Then she gets into rape and how policing has failed to curb it. She also points out that that is a common form of police misconduct. She doesn't get into alternatives for that and other serious crimes.
Knock me over with a feather! Here I was, fully expecting she solved that problem!


When people, especially white people, consider a world without the police, they envision a society as violent as our current one, merely without law enforcement — and they shudder. As a society, we have been so indoctrinated with the idea that we solve problems by policing and caging people that many cannot imagine anything other than prisons and the police as solutions to violence and harm.
As long as there have been societies there has been the need to deal with people dangerous to said societies. No amount of utopian wishful thinking will change that.

People like me who want to abolish prisons and police, however, have a vision of a different society, built on cooperation instead of individualism,
Individualism is one of the great achievements of Western civilization.

on mutual aid instead of self-preservation. What would the country look like if it had billions of extra dollars to spend on housing, food and education for all?
Money doesn't grow on trees you know. And how will that eliminate crime or the need for punishment?
Even the collectivist communist workers' and peasants' paradises of Eastern Europe and Asia had the need for law enforcement as well as prisons.

This change in society wouldn’t happen immediately, but the protests show that many people are ready to embrace a different vision of safety and justice.
And help themselves to $25k worth of "free" sneakers, or TVs at Target etc.


lpetrich said:
Seems overoptimistic and utopian.
Yes.
 
And for a good reason. Most people do not want to see Wendy's restaurants torched and Interstates blocked every time some idiot attacks the police and gets shot.
Derec, can you describe for us any examples of illegitimate use of police deadly force against a black person? I'm sure that there are some examples, even if they may seem hard to find.
 
Trump on Fox: “The concept of chokehold sounds so innocent, so perfect” - Vox - "Trump’s new Fox interview shows why he’s so terribly unsuited to our moment."
His position, as far as I can tell, seems to be that maybe sometimes individual officers need to use chokeholds, but the more police there are, the less likely it is they’ll need to use one:

TRUMP: I think the concept of chokehold sounds so innocent, so perfect. And then you realize, if it’s a one-on-one. But if it’s two-on-one, that’s a little bit a different story. Depending on the toughness and strength — you know, we’re talking about toughness and strength. There’s a physical thing here too.

FAULKNER: If it’s a one-on-one for the [officer’s] life ...

TRUMP: And that does happen, that does happen. You have to be careful.

The most relevant part here isn’t the president’s views on the details of self-defense tactics, but rather the lack of empathy in the way he talks about the issue. The only world in which police using chokeholds could sound “innocent” or “perfect” is a world in which you don’t think about what happens to people when they’re literally being choked — or one where you assume that it won’t happen to people like you.


Drawing on Decades of Activism, Karen Bass Leads Democrats’ Policing Overhaul - The New York Times - "The California congresswoman, who heads the Congressional Black Caucus and was the first black woman speaker of a state legislature, has navigated internal divides to produce Democrats’ expansive bill."
For Karen Bass, the riots that erupted in Los Angeles in 1992 after the acquittal of four white police officers caught on tape beating an unarmed black man, Rodney King, felt like a personal defeat. Having spent most of her life as an activist against police brutality and fighting violence in her community, seeing her neighborhood flare in fiery unrest made her wonder what years of work had accomplished.

“I just drove around feeling that all of the years of my involvement and all of the things I had tried to do had been a failure,” she recalled in 2011. “I failed the young people because they felt no outlet other than to destroy.”
She's a real leader here, unlike Trump.
 
San Francisco police to stop responding to noncriminal calls - Los Angeles Times
San Francisco police officers will be replaced with trained, unarmed professionals to respond to calls for help on noncriminal matters involving mental health, the homeless, school discipline and neighbor disputes, as part of a new wave of police reforms.

That change and others, which will be implemented over the coming months, are part of a plan by Mayor London Breed to try to reduce police confrontations with the community. Breed unveiled her proposals after weeks of massive protests over the May 25 police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

“San Francisco has made progress reforming our police department, but we know that we still have significant work to do,” Breed said. “We know that a lack of equity in our society overall leads to a lot of the problems that police are being asked to solve.”
Mayor London Breed Announces Roadmap for New Police Reforms | Office of the Mayor - "Additional reforms will focus on eliminating the need for police to be first responders for non-criminal situations and changing hiring, promotional, training, and disciplinary systems"

Great. Good to see that.
 
There’s already an alternative to calling the police — High Country News – Know the West
Mobile, community-based crisis programs employ first responders that are not police to address disturbances where crimes are not being committed. One of the nation’s longest-running examples is CAHOOTS — Crisis Assistance Helping Out On The Streets — in Eugene, Oregon. CAHOOTS has inspired similar programs in other cities in the region, including the Denver Alliance for Street Health Response, Mobile Assistance Community Responders of Oakland and Portland Street Response in Oregon.

Such programs take police out of the equation when someone is going through a mental health crisis, struggling with substance abuse, or experiencing homelessness. When police show up, situations can escalate, and the use of force can be disproportionate, especially towards Black people; a 2016 study estimated that 20% to 50% of fatal encounters with law enforcement involved someone with a mental illness. Advocates say the CAHOOTS model shows those encounters aren’t inevitable: Less than 1% of the calls that CAHOOTS responds to need police assistance. The CAHOOTS system relies on trauma-informed de-escalation and harm reduction, which reduces calls to police, averts harmful arrest-release-repeat cycles, and prevents violent police encounters.
That's very good. I like that. It's good to show that there are alternatives to cops everywhere -- alternatives that work.
 
Ilhan Omar On Police Reform, The Minneapolis Protests, & Talking To Her Kids About Race
Minnesota Representative Ilhan Omar was scrolling through social media when a video of George Floyd’s killing appeared on her feed. “It was like watching a horror movie,” the freshman congresswoman tells Bustle. “You just keep yelling, and you know they can’t hear you.” The video shows former police officer Derek Chauvin, who served Omar’s Minneapolis district, with his knee on Floyd’s neck. “It was like watching a public lynching.”

In late May, Omar had planned on promoting her memoir, This Is What America Looks Like: My Journey From Refugee to Congresswoman, which chronicles her path from Somalia to a Kenyan refugee camp and ultimately to resettlement in Minnesota at age 12. Instead, she’s joined local protests to demand change in law enforcement. Her city has reignited the Black Lives Matter conversation, and activists in more than 750 American cities have joined the call to action. “For too long, Black and marginalized communities have faced violence from the Minneapolis Police Department [MPD],” Omar says. “Our chief himself has sued the department for racism before.”

...
“For my son, he's 14 and will often just blurt out, ‘Mom, that could be me,’” she says. “That's hard, because for him to show up as a Black man [to protests], interactions with the police can be deadly."

Regardless, her children know the power of her platform as a congresswoman. “For them, it's like, ‘Mom, you gotta do something.’”
 
Colorado legislature sends major police reform bill to governor's desk | TheHill
Lawmakers in Colorado passed a bill on Saturday that would introduce a sweeping set of reforms for law enforcement in the state, including a ban on chokeholds and a provision requiring officers to intervene if they see excessive force being used.

The bill, which Gov. Jared Polis (D) has reportedly vowed to sign into law, passed the state Senate on Saturday, according to the Denver Post. The proposal is one of the most wide-reaching plans introduced yet in the wake of protests over the deaths of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and other black Americans during encounters with police.

Among other provisions, the bill would force officers to face criminal charges for not intervening if a fellow officer is violating use of force policies, and also will prevent officers fired for misconduct from being rehired at other departments.
Good.

7 Minneapolis police officers resign amid George Floyd protests | TheHill
At least seven Minneapolis police officers have resigned amid the protests over police brutality and racial inequality, and more than half a dozen are in the process of leaving, department officials told the Minneapolis Star Tribune.

Minneapolis Police Department (MDP) insiders told the newspaper that officers are feeling misunderstood and stuck in the middle of a state probe, protests, city leaders and the media after the death of an unarmed black man, George Floyd, in Minneapolis police custody sparked nationwide protests.
So they feel misunderstood.
 
Colorado legislature sends major police reform bill to governor's desk | TheHill
Lawmakers in Colorado passed a bill on Saturday that would introduce a sweeping set of reforms for law enforcement in the state, including a ban on chokeholds and a provision requiring officers to intervene if they see excessive force being used.

The bill, which Gov. Jared Polis (D) has reportedly vowed to sign into law, passed the state Senate on Saturday, according to the Denver Post. The proposal is one of the most wide-reaching plans introduced yet in the wake of protests over the deaths of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and other black Americans during encounters with police.

Among other provisions, the bill would force officers to face criminal charges for not intervening if a fellow officer is violating use of force policies, and also will prevent officers fired for misconduct from being rehired at other departments.
Good.

7 Minneapolis police officers resign amid George Floyd protests | TheHill
At least seven Minneapolis police officers have resigned amid the protests over police brutality and racial inequality, and more than half a dozen are in the process of leaving, department officials told the Minneapolis Star Tribune.

Minneapolis Police Department (MDP) insiders told the newspaper that officers are feeling misunderstood and stuck in the middle of a state probe, protests, city leaders and the media after the death of an unarmed black man, George Floyd, in Minneapolis police custody sparked nationwide protests.
So they feel misunderstood.
I hope they aren't waiting for someone to beg them to come back! Ten bucks says organized crime turns out to be the backup career plan for at least three of them.
 
And for a good reason. Most people do not want to see Wendy's restaurants torched and Interstates blocked every time some idiot attacks the police and gets shot.
Derec, can you describe for us any examples of illegitimate use of police deadly force against a black person? I'm sure that there are some examples, even if they may seem hard to find.

Good luck with that. Derec gets upset when people protest systemic police brutality, but he doesn't even blink an eyelid when police murder black people in cold blood in front of witnesses. Keeping fast food restaurants safe and the roadway open is a much higher priority to Derec than the police routinely killing black people on the street. That is how much he values black lives.
 
Good luck with that. Derec gets upset when people protest systemic police brutality, but he doesn't even blink an eyelid when police murder black people in cold blood in front of witnesses. Keeping fast food restaurants safe and the roadway open is a much higher priority to Derec than the police routinely killing black people on the street. That is how much he values black lives.
Wrong!
I do think actual police brutality should be prosecuted. But it is far rarer than the activists claim. "Police murder[ing] black people in cold blood" is even rarer.
That said, destroying property and blocking highways is important too. Real people's lives are affected. Take the Wendy's that was torched in Atlanta. I know the city, and I am familiar with the neighborhood.
Who do you think lives in the neighborhoods around University Ave.? Who do you think is buying burgers and Frosties at that Wendy's? Who was, until yesterday, getting their much needed paychecks from there? I value black lives. Which also means black police officers. Which also means hardworking black folk who just want to live their lives, get from point A to point B in peace and maybe grab a burger on the way home.
This guy did not deserve to die. He made a momentary lapse of judgment that cost him everything. But that does not mean we should destroy the life of this police officer just to appease an angry mob.
 
Derec, can you describe for us any examples of illegitimate use of police deadly force against a black person? I'm sure that there are some examples, even if they may seem hard to find.
Sure, there are definitely such examples. Walter Scott comes to mind. As does Levar Jones, although he luckily survived.

But activists are hurting their cause by lumping justified with unjustified just to inflate numbers. All they care is the skin color.
Take this example, by frequent offender Shaun "Talcum X" King:
KING: Three unarmed 15 year-old-boys killed by U.S. cops in one month — but only one case saw much-needed coverage

The shooting of Jordan Edwards was indeed wrong, and the police officer in question was convicted of murder.
But King is lumping his case with the other two just because they are all young and not white.
Darius Smith, along with two other teens, tried to rob an off duty customs agent with a realistic-looking replica.
Jayson Negron used a stolen car as a weapon when he struck a police officer before being shot.

You also have clear-cut cases like that of Patrick Kimmons, a "Rolling 66" Crip who shot two people in a parking lot before getting killed by police. Despite the facts, it led to #BLM-style protests in Portland, with slogans like "We love you Pat-Pat" and "Fuck the police".
Again, all that matters to the activists is the skin color of the dead perp.
 
Having a conscience in a police department can be difficult.

A black Buffalo cop stopped another officer’s chokehold. She was fired. | CSNY
In 2006, Cariol Horne, a black Buffalo police officer, intervened when a white officer, Gregory Kwiatkowski, had a black suspect, David Mack, in a chokehold. Horne jumped on Kwiatkowski’s back to prevent him from harming Mack. In 2008, she was fired from the Buffalo Police Department for her intervention in that case and lost her pension.

...
“The police department didn’t believe her story, and they punished her severely,” Brenda McDuffie, president and CEO of the Buffalo Urban League, told City & State. “She lost her livelihood. I mean, which one of us who has any humanity, seeing someone choked to death, just like those officers (in Minneapolis) who should have said, ‘Get off his neck.’ ... Excessive force is something that we’re finally dealing with as a nation. But we had a woman in our community who stood up and she has suffered greatly.”

After she was fired, Horne worked several jobs to make ends meet. “It didn’t just affect me,” Horne told Spectrum News in 2016. “I have three sons that I have to worry about now. The message that they sent was clear: Even as a police officer, you don’t stand up against police brutality.”
 
Having a conscience in a police department can be difficult.

A black Buffalo cop stopped another officer’s chokehold. She was fired. | CSNY
In 2006, Cariol Horne, a black Buffalo police officer, intervened when a white officer, Gregory Kwiatkowski, had a black suspect, David Mack, in a chokehold. Horne jumped on Kwiatkowski’s back to prevent him from harming Mack. In 2008, she was fired from the Buffalo Police Department for her intervention in that case and lost her pension.

...
“The police department didn’t believe her story, and they punished her severely,” Brenda McDuffie, president and CEO of the Buffalo Urban League, told City & State. “She lost her livelihood. I mean, which one of us who has any humanity, seeing someone choked to death, just like those officers (in Minneapolis) who should have said, ‘Get off his neck.’ ... Excessive force is something that we’re finally dealing with as a nation. But we had a woman in our community who stood up and she has suffered greatly.”

After she was fired, Horne worked several jobs to make ends meet. “It didn’t just affect me,” Horne told Spectrum News in 2016. “I have three sons that I have to worry about now. The message that they sent was clear: Even as a police officer, you don’t stand up against police brutality.”

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdny/pr/former-buffalo-police-lieutenant-sentenced-federal-civil-rights-conviction
 
Ava DuVernay on Twitter: "This is a white woman talking honestly about her experiences and its one of the best threads on the criminalization of Black people that I’ve read lately." / Twitter
noting
Krista Vernoff on Twitter: "When I was 15 ..." / Twitter
When I was 15, I was chased through a mall by police who were yelling “Stop thief!” I had thousands of dollars of stolen merchandise on me. I was caught, booked, sentenced to 6 months of probation, required to see a parole officer weekly. I was never even handcuffed.

THREAD:

When I was 18, I was pulled over for drunk driving. When the Police Officer asked me to blow into the breathalyzer, I pretended to have asthma and insisted I couldn’t blow hard enough to get a reading. The officer laughed then asked my friends to blow and when one of them came up sober enough to drive, he let me move to the passenger seat of my car and go home with just a verbal warning.

When I was 19, I got angry at a girl for flirting with my sister’s boyfriend and drunkenly attacked her in the middle of a party. I swung a gallon jug of water, full force, at her head. The police were never called.

When I was twenty, with all of my strength, I punched a guy in the face -- while we were both standing two feet from a cop. The guy went to the ground and came up bloody and screaming that he wanted me arrested, that he was pressing charges. The cop pulled me aside and said, “You don’t punch people in front of cops,” then laughed and said that if I ever joined the police force he’d like to have me as a partner. I was sent into my apartment and told to stay there.

Between the ages of 11 and 22, my friends and I were chased and/or admonished by police on several occasions for drinking or doing illegal drugs on private property or in public. I have no criminal record.

If I had been shot in the back by police after the shoplifting incident - in which I knowingly and willfully and soberly and in broad daylight RAN FROM THE COPS – would you say I deserved it?

I’m asking the white people reading this to think about the crimes you’ve committed. (Note: You don't call them crimes. You and your parents call them mistakes.) Think of all the mistakes you’ve made that you were allowed to survive.

Defunding the police is not about “living in a lawless society.” It’s about the fact that in this country, we’re not supposed to get shot by police for getting drunk. The system that lets me live and murders Rayshard Brooks is a broken system that must change. Stop defending it. Demand the change. #BlackLivesMatter #WhitePrivilege #DefundPolice
Were the cops too soft on crime about her?
 
Without the police, we get vigilante justice. Yeah karma!



alt


Um, that is with the police. The local police force exits, they were probably just too busy violating someone's civil rights to respond to the call. Or the mostly black locals handled it themselves b/c they knew that calling the cops would likely get one of them or another innocent black man in the area shot.

There's a case against "defunding" the police, but this ain't it. This is a case supporting the need for drastic reform of the police and the lack of trust in police that police brutality creates.
 
Without the police, we get vigilante justice. Yeah karma!



alt


Um, that is with the police. The local police force exits, they were probably just too busy violating someone's civil rights to respond to the call. Or the mostly black locals handled it themselves b/c they knew that calling the cops would likely get one of them or another innocent black man in the area shot.

There's a case against "defunding" the police, but this ain't it. This is a case supporting the need for drastic reform of the police and the lack of trust in police that police brutality creates.


“Help, there’s a man beating a woman”!

“Thank you for your call. A social worker is on her way.”
 
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