Dem Post Mortem

[Elixir]

But "white privilege" is a thing. Recognizing that isn't about shame, it is about social inertia. I actually haven't heard the term "white people problems".

There’s a whole thread about them:

FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

No, one reason she lost is because modern media is no longer much about facts and reality as click bait and selling advertising.

Lets not forget how she made Orange look like a complete uninformed moron on their one and only debate. The contrast was stark and is why his handlers wouldn't let him debate her again. Not sure how all those males out there perceived his performance. Maybe they loved it.

 

[TomC]

The contrast was stark and is why his handlers wouldn't let him debate her again. Not sure how all those males out there perceived his performance. Maybe they loved it.

Take a look at the election results for a clear understanding of how the males perceived his performance.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But "white privilege" is a thing. Recognizing that isn't about shame, it is about social inertia. I actually haven't heard the term "white people problems".

There’s a whole thread about them:

FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS

That isn't "White People Problems" that is "First World Problems" of which black people are also part of (the first world, not the problems).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The contrast was stark and is why his handlers wouldn't let him debate her again. Not sure how all those males out there perceived his performance. Maybe they loved it.

Take a look at the election results for a clear understanding of how the males perceived his performance.
Tom

I wouldn't say they enjoyed it. It was intended to rile them up. Yes, the immigrants are dirty mongrels! "He's get's it!!!" And as you note, message received.

Harris's tactical error in that debate, and I'll say this with a ton of hindsight, is she shouldn't have smiled. It wasn't a joke. She should have made a plea regarding immigrants. Your disdain for immigrants is nothing new in America. America hated the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, the Japanese too. But those people, they helped build this nation into what we have today. Just as immigrants today are contributing to the well being of our country. And I won't stand by and let you denigrate them like Americans have denigrated immigrants for over a century and a half...

That'd been tough to come with on the fly.

 

[lostone]

Also looking like turnout was weak for Dems. She got 66 million votes as of now. Biden got 81. Trump’s numbers have also dropped a bit to 71 from 74. But he might still reach his old total. But in the end, she failed to motivate people to come out and vote. All that talk about record turnout was crap. So called women’s rights.

I was surprised at how short the voting lines were. People on both sides cared less about this election than they did in 2020.

 

[Tigers!]

If Trump is a poor campaigner he was/is miles ahead of Harris.

You fail to appreciate the level of scientific illiteracy in the U.S.

Scientific illiteracy is irrelevant to how good/bad a campaigner can be. Trump is a/was better campaigner that Harris was.

Trump dakked (pulled down) the Democrats pants and kicked their bum hard.

 

[robnisch]

I can see how the younger men, white/brown, feel they have been overlooked and did not get their slice. tRump's team saw that and exploited it.
As a boomer I never felt that way. All I saw was, work hard and you will do fine.
I never had much ambition, so I never made a ton of money.
But, that's on me and no one else to blame.

 

[Derec]

What "aspersion" are you talking about?

You casually talking about "white bigotry" and at the same time say that voting choices of minorities should not be scrutinized at all.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Scientific illiteracy is irrelevant to how good/bad a campaigner can be. Trump is a/was better campaigner that Harris was.

Depending on your audience.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Take a look at the election results for a clear understanding of how the males perceived his performance.

I agree with Jimmy that in hindsight she could have done much better at calling a spade a spade and not trying to smile him off as a buffoon. I also think if there had been a couple more debates she would have improved her game and made him look a whole lot worse, even to those entitled, frightened, righteous males. She would have become the alpha male by making him look like a scared, humiliated, bullying pansy.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I can see how the younger men, white/brown, feel they have been overlooked and did not get their slice.

I know quite a few of these folks. They're largely misogynistic. It's not what they've decided to be, they just are.

 

[Derec]

I’m not assuming it but I am contemplating it as it could be true.

Are there those who did not vote for her because she is a woman? Surely. Are there those who voted for her because she is a woman? Just as surely. The net effect is most likely very small.
Using the excuse that she lost because of all the racists and sexists out there is letting her off the hook for all the mistakes she made. It will ultimately not help Democrats win back the Congress in 2026 and the White House in 2028.

Trump has bad judgment, poor campaigning and is inauthentic yet he still won.

Trump lost votes compared to 2020. So yes, his wasn't a good campaign either.
But Harris lost a lot more votes compared with Biden 2020. It was a disaster, and Democrats should learn from it, rather than casting blame at the electorate.

 

[Tigers!]

I found this interesting. I've been ranting about it, so I figured I should post some sources. So here ya' go.

Ignore and insult one of the largest voting demographics, and well, this is what you get.

Ignore and insult? Government is built around people like, white men. I still haven't endured this "insulting". I think what is meant is some white people are insulted when they aren't the only people considered when developing policy.

Consider that Gen Z males voted for Trump in much larger numbers than for Harris.

Why do you think that is?

They find the strongman "alpha male" image appeals to them, probably? Also they think of Trump as a business man and stupidly imagine that'll help them economically... this hooked a LOT of men.

I'll agree with that--that to a large degree there is this uneducated delusion that Trump is a good businessman, which is clearly ridiculous.

Very true

The notion that government should be run like a business is an old but stupid concept.

If talking about efficiency and value for money it is not a stupid concept at all.

I also think that a lot of stupid, stupid people believe in the "alpha male" thing, which is yet another idiotic notion.

That said, it can't be possible that all of them based their vote on those false ideas. Overall, men voted overwhelmingly for Trump, which appears to indicate that many men, and not just white men, are put off by the Democratic party. Thus, the question is why.

Good question to be asked. But it is likely to be put in either a) the too hard basket or more likely b) Men are stupid. How do we get a better class of men?

We don't need and it's not realistic to suggest that we could get most of them back. 10-15% would be more than sufficient. So then the question becomes how we get them back.

Good questions. Keep going

For the ones that are gettable, it needs to be communicated (somehow) that they're wanted; that the demeaning rhetoric towards them is not what the Democratic party is about. Leftists can cringe all they want at the term "white male bashing", but dammit, it is a factor in driving away this demographic.

Yes indeed. Constantly white men (usually) are told it's all your fault. If they would just shut up and go away then all would be well. Then you complain that they won't listen to us. You can see this gaslighting in a one-to-one setting but cannot see it when you do it to a whole demographic

I cannot put into words how much I despise Trump and what he's done to this nation, but what he has been successful at doing is, in one way or another,

Trump is an excellent campaigner/salesman. Harris is/was not. He is selling trash but he can convince a large number lot to buy it.

communicating to this demographic that they're not the inherently bad people the extremist leftists tell them they are, that they're not automatically privileged, and that their concerns are legitimate.

You have hit the nail on the head.

The reductive idea that someone has it worse than you, so shut the fuck up is insulting and has driven these people away in droves. Communicate to someone that they don't belong and they will go away.

As have have just seen.

Looking on from Aust. I will offer a few notes for free.
1. The Democrat product was poorly packaged, sparse on details. You had a poor sales rep. Whether you like it or not packaging and presentation is very important.
2. Democrats constantly balkanised the electorate. This identity nonsense tripped you up. What is wrong with saying "I am an American". Full stop. Instead of I am an American who is ....... & ........? They tried to please all people and ending up pleasing nowhere near enough.
3. Whilst Harris was not as blatant as Hilary with the notion I get your vote because I am a woman, it still came out too many times. Any presidential candidate is going through a long, arduous job interview. Walking in and saying I deserve the job because I am a particular sex, colour, <insert favourite characteristic here> will rightly get told to close the door behind you as you leave.
4. Stop personalising the contest. It was constantly Trump, Trump, Trump. It was always about more than just Trump. I could have condensed your whole campaign into a few words - "I am not him". Where was your vision, your dreams? These appeared, usually coincidently then replaced by am emphasis on Trump (yet again). The Democrats decided to play on Trump's home ground and he was kicking with a 3 goal wind behind him. I do not know what was expected by constantly calling Trump a fascist, Hitler etc. but you gave him free publicity. Be positive not negative.
5. Your fascination with polls was perplexing. Polls are only barely useful for detecting trends. Nothing more. Polls are only a snapshot in time and, and you do not know, nor can know, if the respondents are being candid or not. Go to the bookies. They will be more accurate as a general rule.

Unfortunately Trump dakked (pulled down the pants) the democrats and then gave them a good kicking on the bum.

And spare me the nonsense that Trump may have got less votes than last time or 2016. Sow what? It is president-elect Trump not president-elect Harris.

 

[Derec]

Derec was claiming she lost because she was a bad candidate, when all the characteristics he attributed to her were demonstrably worse with Trump. the standards are unequal.

I think she was a bad candidate. I think Trump was a bad candidate too. And both lost votes compared to 2020. But Harris lost worst.

Pretending that Kamala Harris was the bestest candidate who ran a great campaign will not help Dems win in the future.

 

[Derec]

And, of course, running against a woman. Trump won two elections for President against women, but lost against a man. That is something to think about.

The sample size is too small to draw any conclusions.
Trump won two elections when he was a challenger, but lost when he was an incumbent.
One could probably come up with a dozen criteria that fit 2016 and 2024, but not 2020. Some (e.g. Pandemic) more salient than others (e.g. year divisible by 10).

 

[Derec]

Yeah. I wonder what these ruinous policies of Biden are. Is it the low unemployment? The low inflation?

I will give you low unemployment, but inflation spiked on his watch - in part also due to too much spending. It only came down because Fed increased interest rates.

As to other policies? How about affirmative action? The Biden administration is staunchly in favor of them. To the point that Biden only considered black women for the SCOTUS seat, just like Newsom only considered black women for Senate.

 

[Derec]

And spare me the nonsense that Trump may have got less votes than last time or 2016. Sow what? It is president-elect Trump not president-elect Harris.

That is important though. Doesn't change the outcome. But it does show that he won not because he was particularly popular, but because she was even less so.

 

[Derec]

im a white male and have suffered from some of the complaints these other white male voters have complained about. in fact i have been told on a few occassions i was not hired for good paying jobs because it was determined by the corprate hr they needed minorities or women to fill those roles

So you recognize that you have been subject to racist and sexist discrimination, and yet you are fine with it?

Go electing a dictator wannabee isnt going to help. if Trump actually tried to put white men back at the top like the 1950s and before we will have to just start all over again when the political winds change towards equal rights.

I support equal rights. But not hiring a white man because he is a white man is the opposite of equal rights. It's gaslighting to suggest that white men should just shut up and not mind being discriminated against and if we complain, it's because we must want to be "back at the top like the 1950s".

And in a fe years time the white men will be a minority and nay face some real repurcussions and payback.

As you showed in the first paragraph, real repurcussions[sic] are already here.

 

[laughing dog]

And, of course, running against a woman. Trump won two elections for President against women, but lost against a man. That is something to think about.

The sample size is too small to draw any conclusions.
Trump won two elections when he was a challenger, but lost when he was an incumbent.
One could probably come up with a dozen criteria that fit 2016 and 2024, but 2020. Some (e.g. Pandemic) more salient than others (e.g. year divisible by 10).

Just pointing out relevant facts to think about.