Dem Post Mortem

[Jarhyn]

The GOP is just so damn good at lying to the people.

Take heart. They’re also really good at fucking things up. This will be a master class in that.

10,000+ US soilders were killed or maimed in Iraq, over 100,000 Iraqis died, millions permanently displaced. Our derivatives fuck-up dragged the global economy into the shitter. The MAGA wing took Covid so poorly, it helped kill hundreds of thousand more people. I've seen how expansive their fuck ups can be. I don't want to wait five years for everything to collapse, just so the Democrats can regain power, kind of get things back in line and then the GOP given back power because of fucking pronouns that some people just can seem to manage.

Right, which is a really good argument for blue-state secession.

No... it isn't.

I don’t want to wait five years either. Nowhere is it set in stone that this nation must always be one nation. Also, almost one in four Americans, mostly in the red states, favor secession, according to a poll referenced by Counterpunch. The Civil War secessionists seceded for a despicable reason, but dating almost to the founding of the republic those favoring secession for any reason have pointed to the 10th amendment as justification for it, and I think regardless of the reason people invoke for secession, whether that reason is good or bad, the 10th amendment argument is a good one.

Our national economy is too intertwined to secede.

Well then, fine. Watch everything blow up for the next four years and pray a Democrat can be elected from the carnage, then rinse and repeat for a few more decades. This nation is dysfunctional, and the reason for the dysfunction is that it is two separate nations being held together by the band aid of addiction to an outmoded unionism.

I have a friend who argued something very salient to me some time ago: the US is simply too big and disparate to efficiently or effectively govern: too many people must agree on too many things to too great of an extent for anything to actually get done except the occasional back-slide at this point.

It would be different if instead more cohesive regions would form smaller regional unions.

The problem is that letting significant regions of the country to fall into third world shitholes would wreck more than just those regions.

 

[Emily Lake]

It does not matter what you or I or anyone thinks. It matters what the evidence shows. PZ has the evidence and the explanation. I, personally, don’t care if science alienates a bunch of hillbillies.

Per PZ...

Self-image is part of one’s biology. If it’s in our brains, how can it not be a reflection of biological reality?

This suggests that a person who has a self-image of themselves as an angel also has the biological reality of being an actual fucking angel... therefore angels and gods are real. A person who has a self-image of themselves as overweight also has the biological reality of being actually overweight, therefore anorexics should be on severe diets. A person who has a self-image of themselves as Joan of Arc reincarnated has the biological reality of being Joan of Arc. After all, it's in their brains, right? And brains can't possibly be wrong about self-image or belief...

Do people who are temporally binary, with gender fluctuating over time, change sex each time they change gender?

Sure, why not? Why can’t both sex and gender be fluid?

This is beyond stupid. PZ needs to smoke less crack or something. Seriously. You can't possibly be taking this seriously, can you? Because the implication of THIS being true is that if Joe wakes up on Sunday and feels that his fluctuating gender has changed, and Joe is now Jenny... that Jenny has now spontaneously developed a uterus, fallopian tubes, cervix, and a complete rearrangement of his internal organs, and his penis, testicals, prostate, etc. have magically atrophied overnight and disappeared.

PZ's "explanation" is magical thinking on a scale that should make Tolkein proud. It's damned near biblical.

 

[Emily Lake]

A straw man fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone misrepresents an opponent's argument by exaggerating, oversimplifying, or creating a distorted version of it. The arguer then attacks this distorted version of the argument, instead of the opponent's actual position.

Fits Emily's posts to a T.

Bullshit. Here's the interaction:

Since conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education

What leads you to believe that conservatives hate mexicans, or hate trans people, or hate college education?

Exactly what did I exaggerate, oversimplify, or distort? Not a single fucking thing.

 

[Emily Lake]

Because some people here seem to be incapable of understanding this concept:

Consider the word chair. Most people would tell you "chair" is a category of object types. This is a naive interpretation of the word. Most people would as a result say to the person who said "there is not really such a thing as a chair" is crazy. But there is no such thing all the same.

This is because while chair SEEMS like a category of object shapes it is not, strictly; rather, "chair" is a description of what someone needs an object FOR, and because there are many intents someone could have in asking for a "chair", there is no one meaning.

Really, people use the word "chair" as a placeholder because they either do not understand their intent clearly enough to speak it, or doing so would require too many words that are generally unnecessary for the context, or in some cases because stating their explicit intent would reveal their intent as inappropriate as an attempted end run around respect of privacy.

Of course this has come up time and again in any discussion where someone puts some ignorance on display, but here we are yet again trying to say words like "chair" refer to a fixed physical property when they refer to a wide and varying range of intents.

The inability to separate literal from figurative language is going to be the downfall of humanity.

Seriously, this is a critical capability. It's inherent in being able to separate fact from fiction. Being able to understand that chairs are literal things that do actually fucking exist in the real world while also being able to understand that "chair" has a figurative meaning related to temporary usage is a fundamental necessity for complex thought.

 

[Elixir]

The GOP is just so damn good at lying to the people.

Take heart. They’re also really good at fucking things up. This will be a master class in that.

10,000+ US soilders were killed or maimed in Iraq, over 100,000 Iraqis died, millions permanently displaced. Our derivatives fuck-up dragged the global economy into the shitter. The MAGA wing took Covid so poorly, it helped kill hundreds of thousand more people. I've seen how expansive their fuck ups can be. I don't want to wait five years for everything to collapse, just so the Democrats can regain power, kind of get things back in line and then the GOP given back power because of fucking pronouns that some people just can seem to manage.

Okay then … perhaps you’d like to choose door #2?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The GOP is just so damn good at lying to the people.

Take heart. They’re also really good at fucking things up. This will be a master class in that.

10,000+ US soilders were killed or maimed in Iraq, over 100,000 Iraqis died, millions permanently displaced. Our derivatives fuck-up dragged the global economy into the shitter. The MAGA wing took Covid so poorly, it helped kill hundreds of thousand more people. I've seen how expansive their fuck ups can be. I don't want to wait five years for everything to collapse, just so the Democrats can regain power, kind of get things back in line and then the GOP given back power because of fucking pronouns that some people just can seem to manage.

Okay then … perhaps you’d like to choose door #2?

I think the electorate already selected #2.

 

[Elixir]

The GOP is just so damn good at lying to the people.

Take heart. They’re also really good at fucking things up. This will be a master class in that.

10,000+ US soilders were killed or maimed in Iraq, over 100,000 Iraqis died, millions permanently displaced. Our derivatives fuck-up dragged the global economy into the shitter. The MAGA wing took Covid so poorly, it helped kill hundreds of thousand more people. I've seen how expansive their fuck ups can be. I don't want to wait five years for everything to collapse, just so the Democrats can regain power, kind of get things back in line and then the GOP given back power because of fucking pronouns that some people just can seem to manage.

Okay then … perhaps you’d like to choose door #2?

I think the electorate already selected #2.

Oh? Door #2 must be a lot like door #1 then. The electorate seems content with waiting five years to see how fucked up Trump and his suckers can make this Country.

 

[Emily Lake]

Gender identity is fluid. If all the hillbillies in America believe otherwise, they are wrong, and no one should pander to their stupidity just to get their votes.

It's just as real as astrological cusps, who vary between Aries and Taurus day by day, and who present their personalities as inconsistent interpretations of how those signs rule their lives.

Look, I don't give a crap at all if someone sometimes feels more masculine or more feminine. I don't care if someone wants to wear trousers one day and a skirt the next - that's window dressing, and it matters not at all to anyone other than them.

But a person's feelings about themselves does not obligate anyone else on the planet to warp their perceptions or to pretend that when Ellen Page puts on a suit and cuts her hair, that somehow she is indistinguishable from any other Hollywood man, and if put in a line-up among Jason Momoa, Chris Evans, and Danny Devito, nobody would be able to easily and accurately identify her as female.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The GOP is just so damn good at lying to the people.

Take heart. They’re also really good at fucking things up. This will be a master class in that.

10,000+ US soilders were killed or maimed in Iraq, over 100,000 Iraqis died, millions permanently displaced. Our derivatives fuck-up dragged the global economy into the shitter. The MAGA wing took Covid so poorly, it helped kill hundreds of thousand more people. I've seen how expansive their fuck ups can be. I don't want to wait five years for everything to collapse, just so the Democrats can regain power, kind of get things back in line and then the GOP given back power because of fucking pronouns that some people just can seem to manage.

Okay then … perhaps you’d like to choose door #2?

I think the electorate already selected #2.

Oh? Door #2 must be a lot like door #1 then. The electorate seems content with waiting five years to see how fucked up Trump and his suckers can make this Country.

The electorate trusts the GOP with the economy. The same thing that they baked in the ingredients that would crash the global economy (and signed off on by President Clinton). They just trust them, in general. They seem to mistake lower taxes means good economy.

 

[Jarhyn]

The GOP is just so damn good at lying to the people.

Take heart. They’re also really good at fucking things up. This will be a master class in that.

10,000+ US soilders were killed or maimed in Iraq, over 100,000 Iraqis died, millions permanently displaced. Our derivatives fuck-up dragged the global economy into the shitter. The MAGA wing took Covid so poorly, it helped kill hundreds of thousand more people. I've seen how expansive their fuck ups can be. I don't want to wait five years for everything to collapse, just so the Democrats can regain power, kind of get things back in line and then the GOP given back power because of fucking pronouns that some people just can seem to manage.

Okay then … perhaps you’d like to choose door #2?

I think the electorate already selected #2.

Oh? Door #2 must be a lot like door #1 then. The electorate seems content with waiting five years to see how fucked up Trump and his suckers can make this Country.

The electorate trusts the GOP with the economy. The same thing that they baked in the ingredients that would crash the global economy (and signed off on by President Clinton). They just trust them, in general. They seem to mistake lower taxes means good economy.

Except it isn't lower taxes except for a vanishing minority. They just take someone else's word on what their tax bill is.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think the electorate already selected #2.

Oh? Door #2 must be a lot like door #1 then. The electorate seems content with waiting five years to see how fucked up Trump and his suckers can make this Country.

The electorate trusts the GOP with the economy. The same thing that they baked in the ingredients that would crash the global economy (and signed off on by President Clinton). They just trust them, in general. They seem to mistake lower taxes means good economy.

Except it isn't lower taxes except for a vanishing minority. They just take someone else's word on what their tax bill is.

True. They say they are against deficit spending, but want to pay less in taxes. This is a result of 40 years of Reaganomics.

 

[Gospel]

A straw man fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone misrepresents an opponent's argument by exaggerating, oversimplifying, or creating a distorted version of it. The arguer then attacks this distorted version of the argument, instead of the opponent's actual position.

Fits Emily's posts to a T.

Bullshit. Here's the interaction:

Since conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education

What leads you to believe that conservatives hate Mexicans, or hate trans people, or hate college education?

Exactly what did I exaggerate, oversimplify, or distort? Not a single fucking thing.

That wasn’t the post Zipr was referring to. It was actually these:

Why do you believe that Trump's view is representative of all conservatives?

What leads you to feel that the ads for a single specific candidate represent the views of all conservatives?

What mockery did Fox push that specified college educations? Why do you assume that infotainment has the beliefs of all conservatives nailed?

Why do you always argue using strawmen?

Maybe you made an honest mistake, but shifting the reference to:

What leads you to believe that conservatives hate Mexicans, or hate trans people, or hate college education?

is, a straw man.

 

[Elixir]

is, a straw man.

I don’t think providing examples is effective.
It has been done before, to no effect.
It’s like asking who benefits from abortion bans.

 

[Gospel]

It's actually using a strawman to deny using a strawman. Don’t think I’ve seen that one before. So maybe this time it will be different? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[pood]

Gender identity is fluid. If all the hillbillies in America believe otherwise, they are wrong, and no one should pander to their stupidity just to get their votes.

It's just as real as astrological cusps, who vary between Aries and Taurus day by day, and who present their personalities as inconsistent interpretations of how those signs rule their lives.

No, it not the same as astrology at all. Transgender and gender fluid are real people in the real world whether you like it or not.

 

[Emily Lake]

Gender identity is fluid. If all the hillbillies in America believe otherwise, they are wrong, and no one should pander to their stupidity just to get their votes.

It's just as real as astrological cusps, who vary between Aries and Taurus day by day, and who present their personalities as inconsistent interpretations of how those signs rule their lives.

No, it not the same as astrology at all. Transgender and gender fluid are real people in the real world whether you like it or not.

Capricorns and Sagittarians are real people in the real world too.

 

[pood]

Gender identity is fluid. If all the hillbillies in America believe otherwise, they are wrong, and no one should pander to their stupidity just to get their votes.

It's just as real as astrological cusps, who vary between Aries and Taurus day by day, and who present their personalities as inconsistent interpretations of how those signs rule their lives.

No, it not the same as astrology at all. Transgender and gender fluid are real people in the real world whether you like it or not.

Capricorns and Sagittarians are real people in the real world too.

But astrology is not real, even if some think it is. Transgenderism and gender fluidity is real, they are part of real people.

There is a ton of science stuff about this that you can find on the internet. Maybe you should try doing that. Then see how much scientific support you can find for astrology, and compare the two.

 

[Elixir]

Gender identity is fluid. If all the hillbillies in America believe otherwise, they are wrong, and no one should pander to their stupidity just to get their votes.

It's just as real as astrological cusps, who vary between Aries and Taurus day by day, and who present their personalities as inconsistent interpretations of how those signs rule their lives.

No, it not the same as astrology at all. Transgender and gender fluid are real people in the real world whether you like it or not.

Capricorns and Sagittarians are real people in the real world too.

Do you have problems with them like you do with trans and gay people?
What if a Sag tried to pass themself off as a Scorpio or something?
Like if they were born on November 23, but the sun goes into Sagittarius on the 18th this year!???
OMFG someone should look into this! What year were they born? OMFG!

I think if you use a lot lot lot of hairspray, then set it on fire, it will scare away most of the trannies in your vicinity.

 

[ZiprHead]

A straw man fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone misrepresents an opponent's argument by exaggerating, oversimplifying, or creating a distorted version of it. The arguer then attacks this distorted version of the argument, instead of the opponent's actual position.

Fits Emily's posts to a T.

Bullshit. Here's the interaction:

Since conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education

What leads you to believe that conservatives hate mexicans, or hate trans people, or hate college education?

Exactly what did I exaggerate, oversimplify, or distort? Not a single fucking thing.

I did not cite that interaction as a strawman.

 

[pood]

Gender identity is fluid. If all the hillbillies in America believe otherwise, they are wrong, and no one should pander to their stupidity just to get their votes.

It's just as real as astrological cusps, who vary between Aries and Taurus day by day, and who present their personalities as inconsistent interpretations of how those signs rule their lives.

No, it not the same as astrology at all. Transgender and gender fluid are real people in the real world whether you like it or not.

Capricorns and Sagittarians are real people in the real world too.

What does science say about astrology? It’s bullshit.

What does science say about gender fluidity? It’s real.

So, out the window goes your likening gender fluidity to astrology. Duly defenestrated by science.