Derail from Feminist Gamer: Catcalling on the Streets

[Axulus]

I agree that the incessant nature of this type of sexual harrassment is a large part of why even the mildest intrusion is still considered offensive. Moreover, when a woman is walking down the street wearing what Jessica Williams at the Daily Show called "bitch face", it means "don't bother me". The men catcalling know this - that's why so many of them comment on her expression. So even the most seemingly innocuous comment is the man telling the woman that his immediately needs/wants/desires are more important to him than her personal autonomy. That is never anything other than harrassment.

But my point in posting the article was not to derail the thread into a discussion about whether it is possible to catcall without being a harassing jackass. It was to point out that the woman in the video starting receiving rape threats just hours after the video was published. Just like #GamerGate. Just like ElevatorGate. Just like so many other situations that haven't received "gate" monikers.

A woman speaks out against sexual harassment, and receives sexual harassment as a response - yet the existence of wide-spread sexual harrassment against women is still denied.

How widespread is it? Do you have data on the number of troublemakers involved here? What percent is that compared to the overall number in the group?

 

[ZiprHead]

The woman walking in New York is an interesting topic. I propose a split.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The woman walking in New York is an interesting topic. I propose a split.

I agree. A split is in order

 

[RavenSky]

But my point in posting the article was not to derail the thread into a discussion about whether it is possible to catcall without being a harassing jackass. It was to point out that the woman in the video starting receiving rape threats just hours after the video was published. Just like #GamerGate. Just like ElevatorGate. Just like so many other situations that haven't received "gate" monikers.

A woman speaks out against sexual harassment, and receives sexual harassment as a response - yet the existence of wide-spread sexual harrassment against women is still denied.

How widespread is it? Do you have data on the number of troublemakers involved here? What percent is that compared to the overall number in the group?

Did you happen to notice the video in the link I posted, the one you have been referring to? They counted over 100 men in 10 hours. That's ten per hour. Ten men every hour who don't give a flying crap about the woman they are harassing. Is that widespread enough for YOU to give a shit?

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The woman walking in New York is an interesting topic. I propose a split.

I agree. A split is in order

Fine by me.

*Going off to change into mod clothes*

 

[bilby]

Harassment in my mind means pressuring someone to do something they don't want to by being overly aggressive or intimidating/threatening them in some way, NOT merely giving someone unwanted attention. Am I being "harassed" under this loose definition when a pan handler says to me "good day, can you spare some change?" There is no good will in his greeting, he just wants some of my change.

I would say no. It does become harassment if he gets up in my face and starts acting threatening or doesn't leave it alone if I say "no" to his question. Are pan handlers annoying? Sometimes, but I would never say the behavior of the vast majority of them rises to the level of harassment.

I think rather than argue over the semantic differential between 'harassent' and 'unwanted attention', for me the issue is 'is it okay to give someone unwanted attention' and 'what is the cumulative effect of many people doing this'.

I get a lot of unwanted attention because of my height, and if I could choose, I'd rather most of those people didn't talk to me. Being told that I am tall is not news to me, and I can't fathom what these people think they're contributing to my life.*

Many of the men portrayed in the video are simply downright uncivil, and don't seem to understand, or at least don't care about, very obvious social signals. (If someone doesn't respond or look at you even though they clearly heard what you said, it means they don't want to interact with you. MOVE ON.)

*I give public permission for hot guys to talk to me, even complete strangers, even if I'm in an elevator in a foreign country. But you better be sure you're hot.

Well there is something of a problem there, because in my experience, people who are sure that they are hot, are like drivers who are sure that they are skilful - usually mistaken, and often very badly mistaken indeed.

 

[ZiprHead]

*Going off to change into mod clothes*

Damn, gurl! You look sexy in that outfit.

 

[Arctish]

*Going off to change into mod clothes*

Damn, gurl! You look sexy in that outfit.

:laughing-smiley-014

 

[Tom Sawyer]

*Going off to change into mod clothes*

Damn, gurl! You look sexy in that outfit.

Stop stare-raping her!!!

 

[ZiprHead]

Been following this subject on another forum (International Skeptics, formerly JREF). Surprising amount of posters just putting it down to boys-being-boys and women should just suck it up, or worse yet, tell the men to screw off. One of the women posted a photograph of her badly bruised face after she did just that.

 

[RavenSky]

*Going off to change into mod clothes*

Damn, gurl! You look sexy in that outfit.

 

[Rhea]

Now? No, that's always been harassment.

"How are you this evening?" or "have a nice evening" has always been harassment? Are you serious?

Is there some sort of unwritten code that talking to strangers in public is off limits harassment that I've completely missed?

There's a guy in my town that leans over and waves and says, "hello!" and waits for you to respond. Pretty much everyone responds politely. Why? Because he says "hello," to EVERY SINGLE HUMAN HE SEES.

These people are not saying hello to other humans. They are saying hello to marks, to scores, to prey. That's what makes it harassment. The number of greetings a woman would get on those streets from people who are actually "just greeting" can be counted on the toes of one hand.

Axulus, "complimenting a good looking woman" that is a complete stranger to you is fucking creepy. It always has been. It has always been a sign of your targeting her as prey. That's harassment of her under the assumption that she's there for you to enjoy. And she isn't.

It's always been creepy. It's always been harassment. It has always been scary. It is not lighthearted, it is not jovial, it is not friendly when delivered as these were.

If you want to be "just greeting" then the fact that she's good looking is not part of the equation. The second you mind decides that her good looks are what deserve a greeting rather than her humanity - you become a creeper.

We're not here for you.

 

[Axulus]

"How are you this evening?" or "have a nice evening" has always been harassment? Are you serious?

Is there some sort of unwritten code that talking to strangers in public is off limits harassment that I've completely missed?

There's a guy in my town that leans over and waves and says, "hello!" and waits for you to respond. Pretty much everyone responds politely. Why? Because he says "hello," to EVERY SINGLE HUMAN HE SEES.

These people are not saying hello to other humans. They are saying hello to marks, to scores, to prey. That's what makes it harassment. The number of greetings a woman would get on those streets from people who are actually "just greeting" can be counted on the toes of one hand.

Axulus, "complimenting a good looking woman" that is a complete stranger to you is fucking creepy. It always has been. It has always been a sign of your targeting her as prey. That's harassment of her under the assumption that she's there for you to enjoy. And she isn't.

It's always been creepy. It's always been harassment. It has always been scary. It is not lighthearted, it is not jovial, it is not friendly when delivered as these were.

If you want to be "just greeting" then the fact that she's good looking is not part of the equation. The second you mind decides that her good looks are what deserve a greeting rather than her humanity - you become a creeper.

We're not here for you.

In my mind, they are trying to get her attention. Some are complete jerks and creepers, no question. The others just desperately want to be noticed by her. They want her to stop and start a conversation with them, on the off chance he might be able to get to know her a little bit and get her number. I never knew this was interpreted as predatory behavior when done in a polite, not overly aggressive manner by offering a greeting or compliment and then going along your way when she doesn't respond. If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

In any event, I'm an introvert, so I don't typically say anything to strangers anyway, and my social skills are probably in the bottom 10% of the population, so my ignorance on this subject is probably apparent.

 

[bigfield]

In my mind, they are trying to get her attention. Some are complete jerks and creepers, no question. The others just desperately want to be noticed by her. They want her to stop and start a conversation with them, on the off chance he might be able to get to know her a little bit and get her number.

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

I never knew this was interpreted as predatory behavior when done in a polite, not overly aggressive manner by offering a greeting or compliment and then going along your way when she doesn't respond.

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

 

[Axulus]

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

I never knew this was interpreted as predatory behavior when done in a polite, not overly aggressive manner by offering a greeting or compliment and then going along your way when she doesn't respond.

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

 

[Rhea]

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

 

[Rhea]

An interesting thing about the comments elsewhere in the media is some claim that they "edited out all of the white people." I have no idea if that is true or if circumstances just made them not be in this version. But interestingly, I never noticed that all of the callers were black. I think that is because it was completely expected by me for them to be male, and that is what I noticed. My experience of this is from white males, so it did not strike me as these men acted any different than any group of men, so their race did not register at all. It happens all over, the color of the men doesn't change a thing.

 

[thebeave]

Us white males with our privilege have to put up with the same thing. Rather than fight it, we embrace it.

[video]http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/8aeb78deb2/10-hours-of-walking-in-nyc-as-a-man[/video]

 

[Rhea]

Us white males with our privilege have to put up with the same thing. Rather than fight it, we embrace it.

LOL.

That brings up an interesting thought, though.

**IF** these people (in the original video) were just nice guys saying good morning, then men would experience it all the time, right? 'Cause those nice men would say it to guys, too. 'Cause they aren't actually predators stalking and harassing, they're just polite happy people saying hello, right?

So guys get catcalls of "good day" all the time, right?

 

[Derec]

What planet are you from? The harassement lies in you never knowing how far these guys go. A pan handler that assaults you? Not common. A guy raping women? Just too common. There is the harassement.

Imagining a worst case scenario doesn't make magically make an innocuous interaction into harassment. Also you are mistaken on how common rape is. According to FBI, forcible rape rate in the US was 27 per 100,000, meaning that it is 9 times less frequent than aggravated assault and 4 times less frequent than robbery. All the feminist hysteria over "rape culture" has sadly led to total overestimation of how common rape is among many people.

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"Just take a look for a few seconds to admire the beauty"?

This is exactly the problem: you dont realize that eyeing someone out also is a signal that you are interested. That your body language are saying: i wanna fuck you.

So?

 

[Derec]

And you do realize that in many places, panhandling is illegal, right? That asking people for money, female or male, is seen as disturbing the peace, as a form of harassment, and can get you a free ride in a police car?

You do realize that such laws are vociferously opposed by the very same political faction (the Left) that now wants to define any interaction - determined in hindsight as unwanted - initiated by a male toward a female as "harassment". Quite a hypocrisy.