DeSantis signs bill requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state

[Bomb#20]

From the PBS article:

...
Barbara Segal, a high school government teacher in Fort Lauderdale, recently took a three-day training session on Florida's new civics standards. ...

Some of the most jarring material seemed to downplay the role of slavery in the country's founding, including one that stated that only 4 percent of enslaved people from Africa came to the colonies.

"Which means," Segal concluded, "we're not that bad."

Nope, no indoctrination there.

Hang on. It says Segal concluded it means, "we're not that bad." Did the material conclude "we're not that bad", or was that just a gloss Segal read into it? If it's a fact that only 4 percent of enslaved people from Africa came to the colonies, surely you aren't objecting to teaching the history of slavery?

What would the point of giving the estimated percentage of enslaved people from Africa?

What do you think the point is? The point is to provide context that paints an overall picture more to the liking of Koch, Hillsdale and DeSantis, and less to the liking of Segal, ZiprHead, and, I'm guessing, you. And the curious phenomenon that the three of you all seem to think presenting facts and context to children is somehow problematic because of its potential impact on which subculture's narrative the children end up internalizing gives the lie...

It is unexpected that parents prefer schools teach the usual academics rather than indoctrinate their children in a political ideology. Stupid parents.

Teaching the history of slavery and discrimination this country committed against minorities is political ideology now?

You see, teaching American history is indoctrinating children. Teaching evolution in school science classes is indoctrinating children.

... to the unceasing left-wing mantra that their captured public school systems are only telling children the facts of history, and the parents and legislatures pushing back against them are trying to stop children from knowing the facts. This isn't about one side wanting to reveal facts and the other side wanting to conceal them, but about two sides' competing political agendas benefiting from children being exposed to different selections from the infinite range of facts they could potentially be told about, and you all bloody well know it.

"School is built on indoctrination."

- laughing dog​

So how about the whole lot of you lay off the gaslighting?

Assuming that's a gloss Segal read into it, why did she find it so jarring? Did she want to teach her students we are that bad?

Desantis and Trump would be soooo proud of you.

You know that's an ad hominem argument, don't you?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I am down here in oh so red Texas. Thanks to the vast hordes of MAGAt voters, we have some far righr members sitting on the Texas board of edu ation. Exery year we have fierce fights to stop the creationists on that board from gutting science education. To water down biology text books teaching the facts of education.

And battling attempts to gut history teaching. We had one right wing approved textbook shot down for its Latino racist dog whistle language. We have to battle efforts to saddle Texas education system with textbooks by David "Idiot Boy" Barton.
We had far right members of TSBOE mandaing Texas text books to cut back on teaching about Thomas Jefferson and add material instead lauding Phylis Schlafly.

DO NOT LECTURE ME ABOUT INDOCTRINATING SCHOOL CHILDREN!

We down here in Texas fight the reactionary right wingers tooth and nail each and every year to keep them from turning Texas education in schools to right winged tommyrot.

 

[Bomb#20]

... I do think it is important that the transatlantic slave trade in its totality be understood, and the differences of scale between the US and the Caribbean states like Haiti and Cuba (that we later made attempts to colonize, let's note very clearly) are significant points in that history. It is true that in both quantitative scale and cruelty, our slave markets paled in comparison to those of Brazil and many parts of the Caribbean, and that is a significant fact even for understanding just US history; we were still part of and frequently party to those other projects of mass enslavement, certainly by economic connection and often direct politics as well. ...

Do you really think the point of that statistic was to give an overview of the global transatlantic slave trade? Whether or not the US had 40%, 4%, 0.4% or 0.04% of the transatlantic slave trade says nothing about the institution of slavery and its effects in the USA.

Actually it says a great deal about the institution of slavery and its effects in the USA. Not in the simplistic way that both sides' ideologues imagine, though. The historical fact that American slavers enslaved far fewer people overall and treated slaves enormously better than Brazilian slavers did needs to be understood in the context of the transatlantic slave trade in its totality, or else the message children take away will be either the right's message that leftists just want them to think white Americans suck, or the left's message that rightists just want them to think what white Americans did to Africans wasn't that big a deal.

Children need to be shown maps like this and see for themselves the salient fact all the rhetoric about 40%, 4%, or 0.4% neglects: how much closer West Africa is to Brazil than to the U.S.

Brazilian slavers didn't treat Africans worse than American slavers because Brazilian slavers were worse human beings than American slavers. Brazilian slavers treated Africans worse than American slavers because kidnapping an African and bringing him to Brazil was a whole lot cheaper than kidnapping an African and bringing him to the U.S. American slavers valued slaves more than Brazilian slavers because a slave cost more in America than in Brazil. In America it was cheaper to keep slaves alive and breed new ones; in Brazil it was cheaper to work slaves to death and kidnap new ones. So if America had been as close to Africa as Brazil is, American slavers would probably have been just as cruel as Brazilian slavers.

If Ms. Segal is worried that her charges will take away the message "we're not that bad", then she should embrace the instruction to tell them only 4 percent of enslaved people from Africa came to the colonies, and also make sure to tell them why it was only 4%.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Google Virginia, happy slave text book.

 

[Bomb#20]

DO NOT LECTURE ME ABOUT INDOCTRINATING SCHOOL CHILDREN!

Tell you what. How about first you exhibit some sign that you object to indoctrination and know how to recognize indoctrination, as opposed to merely objecting to indoctrination by your political opponents and knowing how to recognize indoctrination by your political opponents, and then I'll stop lecturing you about indoctrinating school children.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Did YOU READ MY POST? Yes, I object to indoctrination. We here in Texas fight right wing efforts to indoctrinate our children with right wing BS! Texas long had a statewide system of recommended school Text books. Meanin Textbook companies were very eager to make the important list of Texas allowable textbooks. Which resulted in them creating textbooks that were available nation wide. Thus the right wing was VERY eager in influencing content of Texas textbooks. So in Texas we have traditionally had to fight right wingers on this textbook issue. It got so bad, text book companies starting losing sales when some states starting to refuse to buy Texas approved bad text books. Some years ago after ousting a right winged chairman of the Texas SBOE we finally managed to tighten up text book review committee members, who now must have and advanced degree in the subject being reviewed. Not for example a creationist dentist with a creationist agenda! Yes, we had one of those. We here in Texas have been battling reactionary indoctination attempts for decades! We are VERY familiar with school indoctrination. Very familiar indeed!

Meanwhile, in Maryland, the right winged Lt. Governor is running for election. He wants to ban all science and history teaching for 1st to 5th graders in Maryland. You want to talk about indoctrination?

 

[Jarhyn]

...

Meanwhile, in Maryland, the right winged Lt. Governor is running for election. He wants to ban all science and history teaching for 1st to 5th graders in Maryland. You want to talk about indoctrination?

What?!?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Between 1492 and 1820, about 2.6 million Europeans immigrated to the Americas. At the same time, at least 8.8 million enslaved Africans were brought here.
So no, we weren’t THAT bad, we only owned about three darkies per person.

Yes, we were that bad. But the wee-uns must never know.

Which three did you own?

To clear things up, the 1820 census states that of the 9.6 million US population (can't use the word citizen really), 1.5 million were slaves, or about 16% (1 in 6).

I think Bomb#20 brings up some good points, but also lacks remembering there is only so much time in US History, to be teaching broader World History... of which there is generally a class for that too, where global slave trade can become a valuable thing. Were slaves in the US treated better than in Haiti. Most certainly yes. How important is this though? Bomb#20 wants to go deep on slave trade economics when there is limited time to actually get that deep into subjects. We didn't really even delve into that level of minutia in US History AP, and that class delved much deeper than the regular standard level US History class.

Effectively, alt-right'ers want to teach the Civil War wasn't just fought over slavery. And Bomb#20 is complaining that liberals aren't going deep enough into the minutia of global slave trade economics.

 

[Playball40]

How are Floridians not storming the castle??

Because they agree with him. DeSantis is more popular than ever.

NO, they don't. MOST Floridians absolutely oppose this BS.

 

[Jarhyn]

How are Floridians not storming the castle??

Because they agree with him. DeSantis is more popular than ever.

NO, they don't. MOST Floridians absolutely oppose this BS.

The problem is that no, they don't actually oppose it. They pay lipservice to opposition, but the opposition itself is absent. If they opposed it, actually opposed it, then it wouldn't be happening, because an army of the people would be deposing the people doing it against their authorization as the people

 

[Playball40]

How are Floridians not storming the castle??

Because they agree with him. DeSantis is more popular than ever.

It is unexpected that parents prefer schools teach the usual academics rather than indoctrinate their children in a political ideology. Stupid parents.

As a parent of SIX children and one grandchild (still in public school in FL) that went through the FL public school system, you are wrong. I think what DeSantis has done to Florida schools/curriculum and teachers is abhorrent. I'm only grateful that my TG son has graduated and won't continue to be the TARGET of this frightening movement.

 

[Playball40]

How are Floridians not storming the castle??

Because they agree with him. DeSantis is more popular than ever.

NO, they don't. MOST Floridians absolutely oppose this BS.

The problem is that no, they don't actually oppose it. They pay lipservice to opposition, but the opposition itself is absent. If they opposed it, actually opposed it, then it wouldn't be happening, because an army of the people would be deposing the people doing it against their authorization as the people

MANY of us were out there fighting and protesting against the Don't Say Gay bullshit. The problem in Florida is the LOCAL districts are so gerrymandered, we are not represented where we need to be.

 

[lostone]

Did YOU READ MY POST? Yes, I object to indoctrination. We here in Texas fight right wing efforts to indoctrinate our children with right wing BS! Texas long had a statewide system of recommended school Text books. Meanin Textbook companies were very eager to make the important list of Texas allowable textbooks. Which resulted in them creating textbooks that were available nation wide. Thus the right wing was VERY eager in influencing content of Texas textbooks. So in Texas we have traditionally had to fight right wingers on this textbook issue. It got so bad, text book companies starting losing sales when some states starting to refuse to buy Texas approved bad text books. Some years ago after ousting a right winged chairman of the Texas SBOE we finally managed to tighten up text book review committee members, who now must have and advanced degree in the subject being reviewed. Not for example a creationist dentist with a creationist agenda! Yes, we had one of those. We here in Texas have been battling reactionary indoctination attempts for decades! We are VERY familiar with school indoctrination. Very familiar indeed!

Meanwhile, in Maryland, the right winged Lt. Governor is running for election. He wants to ban all science and history teaching for 1st to 5th graders in Maryland. You want to talk about indoctrination?

The guy in Maryland is not likely to win

 

[Jarhyn]

Did YOU READ MY POST? Yes, I object to indoctrination. We here in Texas fight right wing efforts to indoctrinate our children with right wing BS! Texas long had a statewide system of recommended school Text books. Meanin Textbook companies were very eager to make the important list of Texas allowable textbooks. Which resulted in them creating textbooks that were available nation wide. Thus the right wing was VERY eager in influencing content of Texas textbooks. So in Texas we have traditionally had to fight right wingers on this textbook issue. It got so bad, text book companies starting losing sales when some states starting to refuse to buy Texas approved bad text books. Some years ago after ousting a right winged chairman of the Texas SBOE we finally managed to tighten up text book review committee members, who now must have and advanced degree in the subject being reviewed. Not for example a creationist dentist with a creationist agenda! Yes, we had one of those. We here in Texas have been battling reactionary indoctination attempts for decades! We are VERY familiar with school indoctrination. Very familiar indeed!

Meanwhile, in Maryland, the right winged Lt. Governor is running for election. He wants to ban all science and history teaching for 1st to 5th graders in Maryland. You want to talk about indoctrination?

The guy in Maryland is not likely to win

One thing I tend to bring up from time to time when the situation bears it is the Tinkerbell Effect and Reverse Tinkerbell Effect.

These are, respectively, the effect wherein belief drives momentum towards the outcome (self fulfilling prophecy), and the effect wherein belief drives momentum against the outcome.

I would enjoin anyone who has an interest in the guy in Maryland losing (or any interest in defeating an opponent) to not ever actually say that the interest is so resolved.

Believing that something is resolved when it is not actually literally "done and in the past" opens effect wherein belief drives momentum against the outcome, via relaxation in effort.

It is not impossible to frame such without the vulnerability:

"The guy in Maryland is not likely to win, provided we keep doing the work to make absolutely sure he loses."

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Did YOU READ MY POST? Yes, I object to indoctrination. We here in Texas fight right wing efforts to indoctrinate our children with right wing BS! Texas long had a statewide system of recommended school Text books. Meanin Textbook companies were very eager to make the important list of Texas allowable textbooks. Which resulted in them creating textbooks that were available nation wide. Thus the right wing was VERY eager in influencing content of Texas textbooks. So in Texas we have traditionally had to fight right wingers on this textbook issue. It got so bad, text book companies starting losing sales when some states starting to refuse to buy Texas approved bad text books. Some years ago after ousting a right winged chairman of the Texas SBOE we finally managed to tighten up text book review committee members, who now must have and advanced degree in the subject being reviewed. Not for example a creationist dentist with a creationist agenda! Yes, we had one of those. We here in Texas have been battling reactionary indoctination attempts for decades! We are VERY familiar with school indoctrination. Very familiar indeed!

Meanwhile, in Maryland, the right winged Lt. Governor is running for election. He wants to ban all science and history teaching for 1st to 5th graders in Maryland. You want to talk about indoctrination?

The guy in Maryland is not likely to win

While I'm happy that is unlikely, the fact that he, with the Governor candidate received over half the vote, continues to scare the heck out of me... that the alt-right voters are everywhere, and worse yet, are the most likely to vote! This isn't a fringe movement, especially when the remaining GOP voters will almost always "hold their nose" to vote for the rotten GOP candidate. It can't win in Maryland, but it certainly shows just how poisoned the voting base for the GOP has become.

 

[Elixir]

Between 1492 and 1820, about 2.6 million Europeans immigrated to the Americas. At the same time, at least 8.8 million enslaved Africans were brought here.
So no, we weren’t THAT bad, we only owned about three darkies per person.

Yes, we were that bad. But the wee-uns must never know.

Which three did you own?

Oh come on, B20 - you know perfectly well that you lib’ruls took ‘em away before I got mine!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is more the lower education level, but generally, the Florida GOP wants to meddle in all public education in Florida.

Sarasota pauses dictionary donation due to Florida Government meddling.

The trouble, it would appear, stems from the fact that the school district where the dictionaries are sent each year has yet to appoint a certified education media specialist, a position that is required by the new law to oversee the selection of books – both purchased and donated – for the school year.

“Each book made available to students through a school district library media center or included in a recommended or assigned school or grade-level reading list must be selected by a school district employee who holds a valid educational media specialist certificate,” the bill in its final form states, noting that this rule holds “regardless of whether the book is purchased, donated, or otherwise made available to students”.

Ponder whether the word "nuance", "compassion", "ignorance" will get the dictionaries banned.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

... I do think it is important that the transatlantic slave trade in its totality be understood, and the differences of scale between the US and the Caribbean states like Haiti and Cuba (that we later made attempts to colonize, let's note very clearly) are significant points in that history. It is true that in both quantitative scale and cruelty, our slave markets paled in comparison to those of Brazil and many parts of the Caribbean, and that is a significant fact even for understanding just US history; we were still part of and frequently party to those other projects of mass enslavement, certainly by economic connection and often direct politics as well. ...

Do you really think the point of that statistic was to give an overview of the global transatlantic slave trade? Whether or not the US had 40%, 4%, 0.4% or 0.04% of the transatlantic slave trade says nothing about the institution of slavery and its effects in the USA.

Actually it says a great deal about the institution of slavery and its effects in the USA. Not in the simplistic way that both sides' ideologues imagine, though. The historical fact that American slavers enslaved far fewer people overall and treated slaves enormously better than Brazilian slavers did needs to be understood in the context of the transatlantic slave trade in its totality, or else the message children take away will be either the right's message that leftists just want them to think white Americans suck, or the left's message that rightists just want them to think what white Americans did to Africans wasn't that big a deal.

Children need to be shown maps like this and see for themselves the salient fact all the rhetoric about 40%, 4%, or 0.4% neglects: how much closer West Africa is to Brazil than to the U.S.

Brazilian slavers didn't treat Africans worse than American slavers because Brazilian slavers were worse human beings than American slavers. Brazilian slavers treated Africans worse than American slavers because kidnapping an African and bringing him to Brazil was a whole lot cheaper than kidnapping an African and bringing him to the U.S. American slavers valued slaves more than Brazilian slavers because a slave cost more in America than in Brazil. In America it was cheaper to keep slaves alive and breed new ones; in Brazil it was cheaper to work slaves to death and kidnap new ones. So if America had been as close to Africa as Brazil is, American slavers would probably have been just as cruel as Brazilian slavers.

If Ms. Segal is worried that her charges will take away the message "we're not that bad", then she should embrace the instruction to tell them only 4 percent of enslaved people from Africa came to the colonies, and also make sure to tell them why it was only 4%.

Dear Teacher Bomb#20,

Congratulations, you just got fired. You are not allowed to discuss forced breeding programs. That is anti-American and age inappropriate.

Have a nice day.

 

[Politesse]

That's not realistic.

Because they never say "fired", either. Too honest. But they might be served notice that their services will not be required in the upcoming term, in a notice that then notes as though in an aside that there have been "many parent and community concerns about the content of their lectures" that they should take into consideration should their services ever be needed again in the future. Especially if they fight the charge.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

That's not realistic.

Because they never say "fired", either. Too honest. But they might be served notice that their services will not be required in the upcoming term, in a notice that then notes as though in an aside that there have been "many parent and community concerns about the content of their lectures" that they should take into consideration should their services ever be needed again in the future. Especially if they fight the charge.

My post wasn't meant to be that realistic, more instead about the behavior, intent and direction of the Reich-wing. A major hurdle is the teachers' union in that regard, but those safeguards like a union and the left are also things Bomb#20 screams about while being too dismissive of draconian move after draconian move by GOP policy and legislation. So I think the post is a fair expression.