Disaster for Ukraine. Rebels route Ukrainian forces at Donetsk

[dystopian]

Dutch is a noun too.

No, it's not.

Edit: To be more precise; you can not say "a dutch"- this is only possible with nationalities that end in -an (American, Austrian, etc); with nationalities that follow a different pattern, you can't. You can't say "He's a Swedish" or "He's a Dutch"; that's grammatically incorrect. The word 'Dutch' is an adjective.

 

[arkirk]

I think the problems in the Ukraine are the result of outside forces drawing maps and telling people what country they must live in. When the Soviet Union dissolved, western allies (NATO) immediately started encroaching on the old Warsaw Pact countries annexing them. There was an agreement that NATO and western capitalist enterprise felt completely free to undermine and indeed even create a coups in Ukraine. Nobody should be sanctioning anybody else in this matter and nobody should be arming factions in Ukraine. They need to instead do what they can to help the disparate factions in that country settle their differences even if it results in several countries instead of just one called Ukraine. I feel that NATO is a dangerous concept and should be disbanded...just like the Warsaw Pact.

 

[thief of fire]

This is a fundamental point. You've been arguing that it wasn't an invasion, but you've yet to come up with a single reason why it wouldn't be an invasion.

Again, it is worth remembering that for Barbos and Thief of Fire, if Russia does it, it is never, ever wrong.

That's a silly thing to say. Russia does plenty wrong, but not here.
Russia was supplying Ukraine with cheap gas. Europe had to pay the real price. In fact Ukraine wasn't even paying their gas bill.

But with winter approaching things are going to get very tough, But what do 'Mericans care. Most 'Mericans couldn't even find Ukraine on a map. You have fucked that poor country, you know that don't you? You have plunged it into civil war.
.Obama-Sanctions & Ukraianian Ceasefire

The people of Kiev are caught in the middle. Their government has been taken over by the West – stuffed with politicians the people are told if they revolt against them, they will receive no support. Their government tells them they must have patience for they will see reform after the war. Meanwhile, the people of Kiev are really pawns. The heating system and hot water are old style communist. You do not have a hot water heater in each home. It is provided by the government from a central plant. They have no hot water and have to use stingers (electric rods that heat the water) and the government told the people they would not turn on the heat until there were 3 consecutive days of frigid weather. Now they are turning off electricity for a few hours during the day.

As I pointed out in a recent post, Wikileaks shows us that the Russians were asking America not to meddle back in 2008. They pointed out that Ukraine could easily be divided and end up in civil war.


Ukraine: One ‘Regime Change’ Too Many?

Exclusive: Russia’s parliament has approved President Putin’s request for the use of force inside neighboring Ukraine, as the latest neocon-approved “regime change” spins out of control and threatens to inflict grave damage on international relations, ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern explains

Just like in Iraq you are leaving others to clean up the mess you make.

 

[barbos]

Dutch is a noun too.

No, it's not.

Edit: To be more precise; you can not say "a dutch"- this is only possible with nationalities that end in -an (American, Austrian, etc); with nationalities that follow a different pattern, you can't. You can't say "He's a Swedish" or "He's a Dutch"; that's grammatically incorrect. The word 'Dutch' is an adjective.

Dictionary disagrees with you.

 

[dystopian]

Dictionary disagrees with you.

The dictionary does *not* tell you that you can say "A Dutch" to refer to someone from the Netherlands. While the word can be used as a noun (really only to refer to the language or to *the* dutch as a people; nothing else afaik), in the example of your 'insult'; it needs to be used as an adjective. You can not put "A" in front of 'Dutch' in your 'insult'.

 

[barbos]

Dictionary disagrees with you.

The dictionary does *not* tell you that you can say "A Dutch" to refer to someone from the Netherlands. While the word can be used as a noun (really only to refer to the language or to *the* dutch as a people; nothing else afaik), in the example of your 'insult'; it needs to be used as an adjective. You can not put "A" in front of 'Dutch' in your 'insult'.

You are wrong.

 

[dystopian]

You are wrong.

Alright, have fun looking stupid every time you say it then.

 

[barbos]

You are wrong.

Alright, have fun looking stupid every time you say it then.

Trust me dutch, it is you who is looking stupid.

 

[thief of fire]

"Why yes, I am indeed Dutch. By the way, having a decent grasp of the English language; as most us Dutch people do;

I think you mean "most of us Dutch people do". Typo I'm sure

 

[dystopian]

"Why yes, I am indeed Dutch. By the way, having a decent grasp of the English language; as most us Dutch people do;

I think you mean "most of us Dutch people do". Typo I'm sure

Saying "As most us Dutch people do" is just as grammatically correct as saying "most of..."

 

[thief of fire]

Alright, have fun looking stupid every time you say it then.

Trust me dutch, it is you who is looking stupid.

I thought "such a dutch" had a good ring to it. It could catch on."
I think the Nedelander is right though. AFAIK.

 

[thief of fire]

I think you mean "most of us Dutch people do". Typo I'm sure

Saying "As most us Dutch people do" is just as grammatically correct as saying "most of..."

I don't think so. You'd either say "as most" or "as most of us".
I'd be interested if you could find an example of your way though.

Added in edit:

Just as an example there are 111,000 hits on google for "most of us Dutch"

But only one result, your post, comes up with "most us Dutch"

 

[Togo]

Why not? Good motives on Russia's part don't make it any less of an invasion.

. It's the circumstances that matter more than motives

How do 'circumstances' make it any less of an invasion?

This is a fundamental point. You've been arguing that it wasn't an invasion, but you've yet to come up with a single reason why it wouldn't be an invasion.

I've listed several which you don't like...

No, you haven't. You've made several points, but you can't link any of them to the invasion 'not being an invasion'.

It's just a basic failure of logic. Something doesn't stop being an invasion just because you think it's a just cause. Even the western media you despise don't make that mistake.

But there wasn't. That's the bit that was disputed, that's the point that Sabine made, backed up with supporting evidence. You can't just assume the cornerstone of your case.

To be clear, you've not demonstrated that:
1) The government as a whole was illegal
2) That the government being illegal would somehow justify* a treaty signatory invading the country and helping itself to territory. (*As in make it not an invasion)

it's easy to make a legal case against what you are saying

Then why can't you do it?

 

[thief of fire]

Something doesn't stop being an invasion just because you think it's a just cause.

I have never mentioned "just cause".

 

[Togo]

Ok. Can you tell me if you're willing to answer the question or not?

 

[dystopian]

I don't think so. You'd either say "as most" or "as most of us".
I'd be interested if you could find an example of your way though.

I don't have to, the way I used it is perfectly correct. It's true that strictly speaking saying "as most of us..." is grammatically more appropriate; however, the way I said it is not incorrect English and a perfectly acceptable form in ordinary colloquial conversation (which incidentally, is why you're not going to find it in formal writing). Don't believe me? Go ask your English professor. Foregoing the 'of' would be more common in a phrase such as "As most us engineers know" (one lacking an adjective); but adding an adjective there doesn't invalidate the grammar. "As most us knowledgeable engineers know" is just as correct, even if you'd be more inclined to add an 'of' in there as you would in the preceding example.

Leaving synctatic elements out of a sentence isn't always incorrect (and is actually more common in American-English); consider "I'll start school monday." versus; "I'll start school on monday." Both are correct. The former, though, likely sounds less correct to someone who'se grasp of the language is derived from formal training. I'd guess that either English isn't your native language, or you're assuming that the rules which you were taught are universal for the language. That, or you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[Melange_Thief]

I don't think so. You'd either say "as most" or "as most of us".
I'd be interested if you could find an example of your way though.

I don't have to, the way I used it is perfectly correct. It's true that strictly speaking saying "as most of us..." is grammatically more appropriate; however, the way I said it is not incorrect English and a perfectly acceptable form in ordinary colloquial conversation (which incidentally, is why you're not going to find it in formal writing). Don't believe me? Go ask your English professor. Foregoing the 'of' would be more common in a phrase such as "As most us engineers know" (one lacking an adjective); but adding an adjective there doesn't invalidate the grammar. "As most us knowledgeable engineers know" is just as correct, even if you'd be more inclined to add an 'of' in there as you would in the preceding example.

Leaving synctatic elements out of a sentence isn't always incorrect (and is actually more common in American-English); consider "I'll start school monday." versus; "I'll start school on monday." Both are correct. The former, though, likely sounds less correct to someone who'se grasp of the language is derived from formal training. I'd guess that either English isn't your native language, or you're assuming that the rules which you were taught are universal for the language. That, or you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It could be a matter of dialectal variation. In my dialect (Pacific Northwest English) we wouldn't use the construction "most us [NOUN]", and it sounds ungrammatical to me. In my case, this isn't a matter of the so-called "grammar rules" we were taught in English class, it's the syntax of the dialect I acquired when I was acquiring my native language. It may be the case that you speak a dialect which allows this construction, while thief of fire speaks a dialect which disallows this and he hasn't seen the construction before.

 

[bilby]

I don't have to, the way I used it is perfectly correct. It's true that strictly speaking saying "as most of us..." is grammatically more appropriate; however, the way I said it is not incorrect English and a perfectly acceptable form in ordinary colloquial conversation (which incidentally, is why you're not going to find it in formal writing). Don't believe me? Go ask your English professor. Foregoing the 'of' would be more common in a phrase such as "As most us engineers know" (one lacking an adjective); but adding an adjective there doesn't invalidate the grammar. "As most us knowledgeable engineers know" is just as correct, even if you'd be more inclined to add an 'of' in there as you would in the preceding example.

Leaving synctatic elements out of a sentence isn't always incorrect (and is actually more common in American-English); consider "I'll start school monday." versus; "I'll start school on monday." Both are correct. The former, though, likely sounds less correct to someone who'se grasp of the language is derived from formal training. I'd guess that either English isn't your native language, or you're assuming that the rules which you were taught are universal for the language. That, or you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It could be a matter of dialectal variation. In my dialect (Pacific Northwest English) we wouldn't use the construction "most us [NOUN]", and it sounds ungrammatical to me. In my case, this isn't a matter of the so-called "grammar rules" we were taught in English class, it's the syntax of the dialect I acquired when I was acquiring my native language. It may be the case that you speak a dialect which allows this construction, while thief of fire speaks a dialect which disallows this and he hasn't seen the construction before.

It is definitely wrong to say "as most us engineers know" without the 'of' in all of England and Australia; and I don't recall ever hearing it from an American either.

As a native English speaker with a love of my language's linguistic oddities, I would say that omitting the 'of' is definitely wrong - although it may possibly be done in some obscure dialects, it is assuredly not correct in most of the English speaking world.

 

[dystopian]

It could be a matter of dialectal variation. In my dialect (Pacific Northwest English) we wouldn't use the construction "most us [NOUN]", and it sounds ungrammatical to me. In my case, this isn't a matter of the so-called "grammar rules" we were taught in English class, it's the syntax of the dialect I acquired when I was acquiring my native language. It may be the case that you speak a dialect which allows this construction, while thief of fire speaks a dialect which disallows this and he hasn't seen the construction before.

Oh, it's most definitely a dialect issue. I'm just pointing out that strictly speaking, it isn't grammatically incorrect; even though "most OF us" is clearly, on a formal level, *more* correct, hence why it might not sound grammatically correct to people who are used to a either a dialect that disallows it or whose grasp of the language is derived from formal training. As for which dialect the 'most us...x' I'm deriving my use from, I honestly can't say; my grasp of the language is fluent, but it isn't derived from a single source and it's difficult to keep the various influences straight. If I'd have to guess, I might've picked it up from some British sources.

It is definitely wrong to say "as most us engineers know" without the 'of' in all of England and Australia; and I don't recall ever hearing it from an American either.

I could swear I've picked it up from a British source though, although I suppose it could've been an American one too. At the very least I know with certainty that I've heard said use more than once from people who speak the language as true natives. It definitely can't be an example of 'dunglish' (literally translating dutch to english), since you'd never omit 'van' (of) in a similar dutch sentence, so I must've picked it up from somewhere else back when I first learned the language, and it'd just gotten stuck.

...now I'm obsessed with figuring this out.

 

[barbos]

speaking of looking stupid.