Discrimination -- the reality

[Jimmy Higgins]

My observation is that in my state, white people cannot do enough to prove how not racist they are ....with regards to black people who immigrated from Africa and their children. You know: the ones who came here the 'right' way. Not the ones who descended from enslaved people.

Alternately, there's a difference in the two populations.

Hint: Immigrants tend to be above average. Slaves have no such benefit.

WTF Loren. WTactual Fuck. NO BODY has been a slave in this country (legally) for over 150 years.

I can't even......

That's factually untrue. Slavery of prisoners is legal (and used) in two states, and most states take advantage of the Constitutional exemption around slavery to justify severely "underpaying" (read: often less than a dollar an hour) their prisoners. No, that is nnot directly relevant to Metaphor's repugnant and incorrect claim, but I don't like to let it go unchallenged. Too few Americans are aware (or care) about the extent to which the possibility legal enslavement is still being wielded as a weapon against black men in this country.

You are correct, of course. And yes, it is too easy to forget about how many people are imprisoned and exploited for their labor in the US, disproportionately black men. I actually knew that and responded to Loren's comment out of emotion because I find his views so absolutely repugnant.

Not as repugnant and horrific as the prison system in some places, although attitudes such as the ones expressed by Loren are partly the reason we have such a corrupt prison system in the US. We badly need reforms up and down.

Michael Cohen can break all sorts of laws... and he gets to go home for his prison sentence.

Some poor guy gets a drug conviction, and they are stuck in prison... possibly naked during wash days. But having those people serve time at home would be bad for the private prison industry... and they provide jobs for America.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The war shouldn't have ended until we lay the smack down on every last remnant of the confederacy sympathizers.

Which would have been impossible short of genocide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All in how you write the headline, isn't it? "Only 16% of hiring managers report ever having been asked to prioritize non-white applicants" doesn't have quite the same ring.

How about "16% of hiring managers have been asked to avoid hiring blacks". Acceptable?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One of the lessons that was pounded into us at Emperor Training School was, "never give an order you do not expect to be obeyed." That goes along with another lesson, "Don't prescribe a cure worse than the disease."

The reason we are discussing this is because racism is now seen as a societal evil and thus unacceptable. In the colored only water fountain days, it was considered a rational way of thinking. It was supported by science and the law. That kind of thing has lost the support of science and law, but if reason could solve society's problems, life would have reached perfection a long time ago.

Which is exactly what I see the current situation as--the "cure" is not only worse than the current disease, but actually causes the disease.

 

[JohnG]

2 personal anecdotes (FWIW) - my company is considering its next hiring to be female, because we are, at present, 100% white dudes. HR thinks it would be a good idea. The staff are uneasy about this.

My facility turned away an Iranian applicant because about 6 years ago they hired an Iranian employee and it didn't work out. That was the reason they stated to us as to why they didn't hire him.

so yes, discrimination is a real thing

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Metaphor has found some remarks on-line and twisted them to serve his political agenda. Were enslaved uneducated blacks stooping in the fields less productive, on average, than free white laborers? Sure. Slightly. Did the semi-feudal Southern society inhibit some types of technological or organizational progress? You betcha!

But Metaphor writes "makes everyone poorer." Does he think Jefferson's slaves made Jefferson poorer?

Men are taller than women. That does not mean every man is taller than every woman. "Making everyone poorer" is a statement about the total wealth available. The total wealth available was less.

Disagree. Make everyone poorer would require no individual didn't lose money.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think they're pretty telling. If these people could demonstrate materially that whites are targets of institutional discrimination, they would present that data, rather than the much weaker argument that whites feel discriminated against despite being wealthier, healthier, and better compensated than their non-white counterparts as measured by any objective criterion.

Yeah, they'd have charts showing black employment was higher than white employment. Black college enrollment was higher than white college enrollment. Black pay was higher than white pay. Of course, none of this is actually happening. So, no charts... just feelings.

As always, the idea that disparate outcome is proof of discrimination.

And note that for young, childless, degreed women we've reached that point--they're outearning their male counterparts even without controlling for profession.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Let's say an organisation did have a policy of favouring non-white candidates, and sometimes ruled out hiring a white man for a position. Do you think that would be a problematic practice, or an acceptable one?

I would be concerned if there were tangible evidence of hiring discrimination, in a way that consistently hurt white applicants.

And what would you consider tangible evidence?

A written policy. A settled legal case. Data showing that whites are disproportionately under-empoloyed, unhoused, under-educated, or under-paid relative to other demographic groupings.

Even this survey data would be more interesting, if it matched the claims you're making rather than contradicting them.

A written policy?? They're not that stupid.

And the rest of it is once again the idea that disparate impact is proof of discrimination.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My observation is that in my state, white people cannot do enough to prove how not racist they are ....with regards to black people who immigrated from Africa and their children. You know: the ones who came here the 'right' way. Not the ones who descended from enslaved people.

Alternately, there's a difference in the two populations.

Hint: Immigrants tend to be above average. Slaves have no such benefit.

WTF Loren. WTactual Fuck. NO BODY has been a slave in this country (legally) for over 150 years.

I can't even......

I don't see what your problem is.

Immigrants in general are self-selected to be superior.

Slaves and refugees are not.

Genetics exists.

Thus slaves and refugees and their descendants would be expected to be average, and thus perform below immigrants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm getting vilified here for not accepting all the racism apologies that are going on in this thread..

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My observation is that in my state, white people cannot do enough to prove how not racist they are ....with regards to black people who immigrated from Africa and their children. You know: the ones who came here the 'right' way. Not the ones who descended from enslaved people.

Alternately, there's a difference in the two populations.

Hint: Immigrants tend to be above average. Slaves have no such benefit.

WTF Loren. WTactual Fuck. NO BODY has been a slave in this country (legally) for over 150 years.

I can't even......

I don't see what your problem is.

Immigrants in general are self-selected to be superior.

Slaves and refugees are not.

Genetics exists.

Yes, and they aren't exactly a great predictor on success. The term "black sheep" exists for a reason... and it isn't related to race.

Thus slaves and refugees and their descendants would be expected to be average, and thus perform below immigrants.

I think what you mean is that immigrants that are accepted into the US are likely to be more successful already, where as refugees would be all over the map.

 

[Toni]

My observation is that in my state, white people cannot do enough to prove how not racist they are ....with regards to black people who immigrated from Africa and their children. You know: the ones who came here the 'right' way. Not the ones who descended from enslaved people.

Alternately, there's a difference in the two populations.

Hint: Immigrants tend to be above average. Slaves have no such benefit.

WTF Loren. WTactual Fuck. NO BODY has been a slave in this country (legally) for over 150 years.

I can't even......

I don't see what your problem is.

Immigrants in general are self-selected to be superior.

Slaves and refugees are not.

Genetics exists.

Thus slaves and refugees and their descendants would be expected to be average, and thus perform below immigrants.

Can you explain to me how being kidnapped/taken prisoner and forced into the hull of a ship and sailed across oceans to be sold/resold into slavery...changes genetics? Are you under the impression that only 'lesser' individuals from West Central Africa were sold into slavery? And their 'genetic betters' managed to avoid being so captured and sold (or sold the 'lesser' individuals) and now those who managed not to be enslaved have decided to immigrate, their genetics are somehow better?

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think they're pretty telling. If these people could demonstrate materially that whites are targets of institutional discrimination, they would present that data, rather than the much weaker argument that whites feel discriminated against despite being wealthier, healthier, and better compensated than their non-white counterparts as measured by any objective criterion.

Yeah, they'd have charts showing black employment was higher than white employment. Black college enrollment was higher than white college enrollment. Black pay was higher than white pay. Of course, none of this is actually happening. So, no charts... just feelings.

As always, the idea that disparate outcome is proof of discrimination.

And you have yet to really respond to my posts on this topic without slashing down the context, much like ignoring deforestation because you see one tree standing. You keep trying to address this issue one technicality at a time, instead of looking at it from a much broader perspective, where the technicalities start adding up. Full blown discrimination is typically not seen these days, but the impact of previous discrimination and the inertia of it in systems, there is still an impact.

I also remind you that my post was in reference to whites claiming discrimination against them. You think there is little data that racism has created a gulf, there is a lot less data to support institutionalized discrimination against white people... forget it impacting the whites in any non-negligible manner.

And note that for young, childless, degreed women we've reached that point--they're outearning their male counterparts even without controlling for profession.

So 60 years, they are kind of caught up... as long as they are childless. *balloons*

 

[Toni]

My observation is that in my state, white people cannot do enough to prove how not racist they are ....with regards to black people who immigrated from Africa and their children. You know: the ones who came here the 'right' way. Not the ones who descended from enslaved people.

Alternately, there's a difference in the two populations.

Hint: Immigrants tend to be above average. Slaves have no such benefit.

WTF Loren. WTactual Fuck. NO BODY has been a slave in this country (legally) for over 150 years.

I can't even......

I don't see what your problem is.

Immigrants in general are self-selected to be superior.

Slaves and refugees are not.

Genetics exists.

Thus slaves and refugees and their descendants would be expected to be average, and thus perform below immigrants.

So, does the same apply to refugees from the Potato Famine? From WWI and WWII? Those who immigrated from China to escape a life of poverty are....inferior to those who immigrated to expand their businesses?

Explain to me how motivation affects genetics.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My observation is that in my state, white people cannot do enough to prove how not racist they are ....with regards to black people who immigrated from Africa and their children. You know: the ones who came here the 'right' way. Not the ones who descended from enslaved people.

Alternately, there's a difference in the two populations.

Hint: Immigrants tend to be above average. Slaves have no such benefit.

WTF Loren. WTactual Fuck. NO BODY has been a slave in this country (legally) for over 150 years.

I can't even......

I don't see what your problem is.

Immigrants in general are self-selected to be superior.

Slaves and refugees are not.

Genetics exists.

Thus slaves and refugees and their descendants would be expected to be average, and thus perform below immigrants.

So, does the same apply to refugees from the Potato Famine? From WWI and WWII? Those who immigrated from China to escape a life of poverty are....inferior to those who immigrated to expand their businesses?

Explain to me how motivation affects genetics.

Simple... because it isn't racism*, it has to be genetics and culture.
* - presumed

"If you eliminate what you don't want to believe is true, whatever remains, no matter how improbable or irrational, is therefore the truth." - Sherlock Holmes

 

[RVonse]

I have never been refused a job,... because I was white.

I have. And that was over 30 years ago.

 

[RVonse]

I find it vulgar to discriminate by race.

what do you propose should have been done to level the playing field for African Americans in an environment where the majority didn't want them to succeed?

Everyone needs to have equal opportunity to succeed. I can think of nothing better than capitalism for the job.

You did not make money with bitcoin because of affirmative action. That was freedom and free market capitalism. Build the best mouse trap or improve the most other lives and you will succeed beyond wildest dreams... even in this fucked up country. Capitalism represents non discrimation for everyone.

Nor can the government hope to fix the bad that happened yesterday. And even if you could trust them to do something good (which you can't), what would you have them do first? Fix the Indians that we fucked up first? Ask the native Indians how good their government programs have helped them out? The only thing I can believe government can do to improve equality of opportunity is to make sure no firm gets too big because a monopoly can discriminate even in a free market economy.

 

[TomC]

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Sure.

Most black Americans are the descendants of the Africans who weren't smart, motivated, or quick enough to escape being enslaved by other Africans.

Then the black slavers sold them to EuroColonialists who shipped them to the Americas.

That's the version for the stupid. Nothing about changing the genetics, it's just about the selection process.
Tom

 

[RVonse]

I'd bet a whole packet of chicken flavored Ramen noodles that if the same people complaining about Affirmative action looks around their place of business it's majority white.

When I hired into the Chrysler Corporation over 35 years ago there was affirmative action and it was not all white nor was it all male. While I had absolutely no problem working with other races I did have a big problem working with females who could not or would not do their job (very physical line work) and expecting the rest of us to take up their slack while they got paid the same.

 

[RVonse]

I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.

(Added audio)

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It seems very curious to me that there is any unemployment right now considering that many of the resaurants in my area will not even let you sit down and only have drive up service. They are claiming because of lack of staff and people to hire!