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And luckily we've got this thing called the scientific method that allows us to test the hypotheticals and determine baselines required to ensure competitive fairness in sports.
The male strength difference is much more than just testosterone level. From bone to muscle tissue; men and women are just different. You'd have to go back to the moment of conception to change sex. Otherwise, Nature will not be fooled.


But right now, if an 8 year old boy turn girl goes through treatment, how much of an advantage do they have on the woman's soccer team in college, swim team, fencing, etc...? We don't have the data. We need the data.
So were gonna stop puberty and pump eight-year old boys with estrogen to get the data? Ghastly.
 
And luckily we've got this thing called the scientific method that allows us to test the hypotheticals and determine baselines required to ensure competitive fairness in sports.
The male strength difference is much more than just testosterone level. From bone to muscle tissue; men and women are just different. You'd have to go back to the moment of conception to change sex. Otherwise, Nature will not be fooled.

Indeed, it could turn out that there is no way to even the odds, regardless the sport.
But right now, if an 8 year old boy turn girl goes through treatment, how much of an advantage do they have on the woman's soccer team in college, swim team, fencing, etc...? We don't have the data. We need the data.
So were gonna stop puberty and pump eight-year old boys with estrogen to get the data? Ghastly.
You are doing that 'posting shit people didn't actually say' thing again.
 
I'm glad they're tightening up the rules... but no amount of hormone therapy is going to change a male physique into a female one. And even after years of hormone therapy, transwomen still retain a significant male advantage in athletics.
Puberty blockers reduce that difference significantly, as I understand.
So... sort of? Maybe?

Bear with me, this is going to get a little long.

Puberty blockers work by suppressing sex-specific hormone production. They are colloquially called "puberty blockers" because they have been FDA approved and used to treat precocious puberty. Puberty in humans is a multi-part system. There are two major components: pituitary driven and adrenal driven.

The adrenal gland is responsible for the lengthening of the long bones, development of fine body hair and fine pubic hair. Toward the end of the pubertal window, the adrenal is also responsible for closing the growth plates. The adrenal triggers multiple times in a child's life, it's predominantly responsible for "growth spurts". But the largest and longest occurs during the pubertal window.

The pituitary gland is responsible for the production of sex hormones and also prompts the development of secondary sex characteristics. In males it drives the descent of the testes, lengthening of the penis, deepening voice, production of active sperm, increased muscle density throughout the body, growth of facial and chest hair, and significant thickening of arm and leg hair. In females it drives the development of lactation glands and increase of fat deposits in breast tissue, widening and tilting of the pubic bone, and the onset of menarche. In both males and females it drives thickening of the pubic hair and importantly - accretion of density in the bones.

In cases of precocious puberty, the pituitary process triggers too soon, well before the adrenal process triggers. Doctors use blockers to halt that precocious puberty, then let it resume when the adrenal process starts. It's important that the two processes happen in sync, because they work together.

When it comes to using blockers to interrupt a normally occurring puberty, however, there are some problems. First off is that puberty is a time-bound process. While the specific ages vary from person to person, it normally happens within a particular window, and in specific phases. You can look into Tanner Stages if you want to. The key point here is that there are distinct phases of development, that differ for each sex. The really screwy part here is that there's a window of time during which this can occur. If normal puberty is artificially delayed, the entirety of the window doesn't increase, it just moves the start date, not the end date.

This means that while blockers are useful for precocious puberty, they present a risk in a normal puberty. For example, let's say that the normal pubertal range is from age 12 to age 15 (yes, there are some lingering maturation after that, but the overwhelming majority of physical changes occurs in this time, and several of the remaining elements aren't directly tied to the pituitary process). In someone with precocious puberty, perhaps those changes start at age 8. That's a problem, for two reasons. First is that the adrenal isn't doing it's thing, so stuff is out of whack - it's not good to accrete bone density when the bones aren't actively lengthening. Secondly is that the process won't stop until around 15. So instead of 3 years of intense pubertal changes, there are 7. With a normal puberty, however, delaying the process reduces the stages of development that the child goes through. If used for too long, it can effectively eliminate puberty altogether... which is very bad. For an idea of the problems that an absent puberty can cause, look into Kallman Syndrome.

When a transgender child is given puberty blockers, they're being prevented from attaining full maturation. The effects can vary from permanently low bone density, to sterility, to cognitive impacts, and several others.

Applying a hormone suppressant and cross-sex hormones does NOT cause a child to have the "other" puberty. Testosterone in a female will prompt facial and leg hair, increased muscle mass, and accretion of bone density... but it will NOT cause a penis and testicles to appear out of thin air, nor will that female child ever have nocturnal ejaculations. Additionally, the testosterone substitution during puberty prevents the uterus from enlarging to an adult size, prevents the maturation of lactation glands, and depending on the timing it can prevent the pelvis from shifting to a mature position. In a male, substitution of estrogen will cause fat deposits to occur in more female-typical locations (hips and butt, and breast area), but it doesn't create additional lactation glands out of nothing, nor will it make a penis and testes go away. Look into what happened with Jazz Jennings for additional information - that poor child didn't develop a female body, but also didn't develop an adult male body, they were locked into a child's body, complete with a child-sized penis that was too small to create a neovagina from, as well as a permanent inability to experience sexual pleasure.

Circling back to the specific comment: Do puberty blockers reduce the difference in physicality between males and females?

Sort of, but not completely. Blockers don't necessarily result in a child attaining less height. A male child that would normally end up being 6 feet tall is still going to experience the lengthening of the long bones that will get them to that height. If they don't reach full height, it's probably due to low bone density. Blockers don't change the shape of the pelvis - which means they don't affect the difference in gait between males and females, they don't change the different angle of the femur or how it attaches to the pelvis. Blockers don't change the attachment points of ligaments and tendons throughout the shoulders. They won't reduce the size of a male heart, nor will they reduce the volume of male lungs.

Blockers used during puberty will reduce muscle mass... but only so long as some form of suppressant continues to be used. As soon as a male begins to experience the normal production of testosterone, they'll gain muscle density to more male-normal levels.

A male child who is given puberty blockers follow by testosterone suppressants and exogenous estrogen will not end up having the physicality of a typical female. They'll have a male stature, with male structures, male organs... and they'll just be weaker than most males and have lower muscle density.

An underdeveloped male is still not a female.
 
And luckily we've got this thing called the scientific method that allows us to test the hypotheticals and determine baselines required to ensure competitive fairness in sports.
The male strength difference is much more than just testosterone level. From bone to muscle tissue; men and women are just different. You'd have to go back to the moment of conception to change sex. Otherwise, Nature will not be fooled.

Indeed, it could turn out that there is no way to even the odds, regardless the sport.
But right now, if an 8 year old boy turn girl goes through treatment, how much of an advantage do they have on the woman's soccer team in college, swim team, fencing, etc...? We don't have the data. We need the data.
So were gonna stop puberty and pump eight-year old boys with estrogen to get the data? Ghastly.
You are doing that 'posting shit people didn't actually say' thing again.
Well, you did write that we need the data. No we don't.
 
#notallmen
Can we just take it as read that #notallmen? Seriously, it's not like either Toni or I are dumb or unable to read, and we've both already specified #notallmen multiple times. Can we just get on with it, without us being required to add caveats and disclaimers to every post?

If you pay attention to the overall pattern of which men in the thread are asking you to ignore all of the safety measures women take as a matter of course and to do it when you are naked, and which men are not asking you to, you can see the malfunction that causes some men to think this way is not testosterone poisoning, but religious poisoning.

Bingo. They have sacrificed rationality on the altar of ideological purity.
I'm going with "their mommas didn't raise them right"
 
But right now, if an 8 year old boy turn girl goes through treatment, how much of an advantage do they have on the woman's soccer team in college, swim team, fencing, etc...? We don't have the data. We need the data.
So were gonna stop puberty and pump eight-year old boys with estrogen to get the data? Ghastly.
You are doing that 'posting shit people didn't actually say' thing again.
:confused: What do YOU think you meant by "an 8 year old boy going through treatment"? Because I'm pretty sure that means puberty blockers followed by testosterone suppressants and estrogen. Because that's what is considered "treatment" in this context.

If you mean something else, it's on you to clarify.
 
An underdeveloped male is still not a female.
Seems like an awful lot of damage to the child on the hope that gender dysphoria is not a phase.
It is. It's a huge amount of damage, and it's not reversible. It turns a child into a permanent medical paitent, locked into a child's body, with impacts to sterility, ability to experience sexual pleasure, bone density problems, and increased risk of several ailments.

And that's not even touching on the cognitive aspect of pubertal development. I know that it is also tied to the pituitary and adrenal processes, but I don't know much about it at all.

My god-daughter has Kallman Syndrome. All of the things that are cause by puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones during the pubertal window are things that her specialists and endocrinologists have taken immense pains to avoid happening to her - because without medical intervention, she wouldn't have experienced puberty properly, her pituitary gland is broken. As it is, even taking hormone supplements on a regular basis, she's highly likely to be infertile.
 
It is disgusting to insist that asserting a woman’s right to privacy is equivalent to Jim Crow.
I cannot get over the number of males in this thread telling females that our boundaries and our insistence upon consent is bigotry against males who want to violate our boundaries and disregard our consent.
And what about all of those telling you you can't exclude black people from white spaces?
Are you under the assumption that non-white women want random naked men in the gym shower?
I said "white" and "black", not "men" and "women". It's the same reasoning.
No it isn't. Sex and race are two wildly different categories. Or is this where we're headed?

FnLKkXqagAMzAtk
 
#notallmen
Can we just take it as read that #notallmen? Seriously, it's not like either Toni or I are dumb or unable to read, and we've both already specified #notallmen multiple times. Can we just get on with it, without us being required to add caveats and disclaimers to every post?

If you pay attention to the overall pattern of which men in the thread are asking you to ignore all of the safety measures women take as a matter of course and to do it when you are naked, and which men are not asking you to, you can see the malfunction that causes some men to think this way is not testosterone poisoning, but religious poisoning.

Bingo. They have sacrificed rationality on the altar of ideological purity.
I'm going with "their mommas didn't raise them right"
Their daddies didn’t raise them right.

None of this has a damn thing to do with religion.
 
And luckily we've got this thing called the scientific method that allows us to test the hypotheticals and determine baselines required to ensure competitive fairness in sports. Likely the issue will be how early transgendered treatment occurs (assuming we don't get to the mental facilities for them part of the fascist track out nation is in right now).

The type of sport might also make a bigger difference on the baseline as well. Swimming, for instance, has clear physical benefits of body length and shoulder build. Where as other sports might not have such significant off the top advantages.

But what I read in your posts in clear conclusions and obvious fact. Yes, is Usain Bolt were to wear a wig and compete with women... it'd be an unfair advantage. But right now, if an 8 year old boy turn girl goes through treatment, how much of an advantage do they have on the woman's soccer team in college, swim team, fencing, etc...? We don't have the data. We need the data. It is going to be something that needs to be observed and policies updated with the data.

Do you understand that your "solution" is essentially fuck the girls, we need to try it and measure it for a while and see. Then, after the fact, if someone decides that "too much" harm has been done to girls... then maybe we might adjust it a little bit until the amount of harm done to girls is something that is decided is an acceptable amount of harm to push onto the girls.
Or if the prelim data weighs heavy in favor of Trans, we just stop it and physical gender at birth holds for athletics.
Your solution very happily and blithely sacrifices girls and women so you can try this experiment.
It won't be sacrificing a ton as the number of Trans in sports isn't large at all. But I figured knowing the truth meant more than permanent exclusion of Trans from their identified athletics side.
 
OMG! Someone made a sign. Someone with a POV has a radical POV... (maybe, if they aren't there trolling) therefore all trans are just like that!
 
No, not religion, it lacks a deity. But it is a level of ideological adherence that approaches religiosity.
Religions do not need a deity. They need core beliefs that are taken on faith.

Buddism is clearly a religion. Buddha is not a deity, he is an ideal to which adherents aspire to emulate.
 
OMG! Someone made a sign. Someone with a POV has a radical POV... (maybe, if they aren't there trolling) therefore all trans are just like that!
It's more the fact that two well known Scottish MPs - ones who have been instrumental in demolishing women's rights in Scotland in their effort to protect the vulnerable transwoman - are standing directly in front of those signs and seem quite happy to be high-profile politicians who support threats against women.
 
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