Drag Shows

[Gospel]

.. which is weird when one considers that no pedophiles or groomers have been reported at those events but gun toting protesters have been showing up regularly:

At the risk of drag*ging posters back to the OP...

I find drag icky. But not a problem for kids. Even exposure to rather bawdy drag isn't a big deal.

A much bigger deal is children's exposure to violence. "La Cage aux Folles" isn't nearly the problem of "Fast and Furious" or action hero movies. A dude in a dress isn't nearly the problem as a dude with a gun(however legal).

Frankly, I'd care less about the effects on children of a guy wearing a dress (or his junk hanging out of his zipper) than a guy walking around with a gun on his belt.
Tom

*pun intended

 

[Toni]

Context is everything, in both cases. Drag shows rarely display penises on stage nor guns. Most gun shows do not display penises, assuming one is willing to disconnect the symbolism there.

Overly sexualized content is a huge problem when targeted towards children. So is violence, especially when targeted at children.

 

[thebeave]

I don't have much of an opinion about drag shows, one way or another. Not my thing, really and I doubt I'll ever go out of my way or fork over money to see one, but...hey, whatever floats your boat, I say. I think most people are probably in agreement with me there. That said, what is supposed to be the goal of having young kids watch a drag show? I get that kids need a break occasionally from the flash cards, times tables and cheezy 16 mm movies, so I don't have a problem with a little diversion once in a while. But, are they funny (for kids, that is)? Educational? What? Seems to me a field trip to a local museum, nature preserve, play or even a magic act might be more entertaining for kids. Maybe if someone makes a case for why it is important for kids to be exposed to drag shows, I'll be more receptive to the idea and not think this all mostly a ploy to "own" and annoy the Repubtards.

 

[Toni]

I’m not convinced there are drag shows for children or that taking children to drag shows is a thing, outside of the rage machine.

 

[TomC]

That said, what is supposed to be the goal of having young kids watch a drag show?

That's a complex question.

What kids? What show? What circumstances?

Speaking for myself,
I grew up in an astonishingly homogeneous world. It was a loving, secure home. I wish all kids had such a nurturing environment to grow up in. But diversity wasn't a thing, except for the feminism in the 70s. That was unusual.

I never met gay person or a black person or someone from a seriously different culture until I was in my 20s. The world I lived in was overwhelmingly white, Christian, upper middle class, heterosexual, gender normative, everything.

It was solid, but wasn't ideal. I wish that, as a child, I'd been exposed to more diversity. Realized that humans aren't all like "decent folk", as defined by my family. Gotten used to the fact that not everyone important resembles my parents.

It's important that children be exposed to human diversity. Drag is just one little corner.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Overly sexualized content is a huge problem when targeted towards children. So is violence, especially when targeted at children.

Is overly sexualized content that they simply can observe actually a harm, though? Won't it basically be ignored?

(Where I do think there's a big problem is when they're made part of it--child beauty pageants are vile!)

 

[bilby]

Overly sexualized content is a huge problem when targeted towards children.

Is it? Children exposed to adult sexual issues tend to either find them boring, funny, or yucky. (Sexual assault of a minor is obviously something completely different, I'm talking here about children observing normal adult sexual behaviour either incidentally, or as part of a movie or TV show). Children find adult responses to their exposure to sex traumatic, but the exposure itself seems to be simply uninteresting, unless it's associated with adults freaking out about the child's exposure.

Children exposed to violence, particularly the kinds of consequence-free violence portrayed on TV, tend to find it exciting, interesting, and to want to reenact the violence in their games, or even in reality.

Of the two, violence is clearly a real problem; Sex is apparently only a problem in societies that desperately want it to be a problem.

 

[ZiprHead]

Families lived in single room cabins/homes for hundreds of years. Nudity and sex in the presence of children was common.

 

[Bomb#20]

What men in this thread are doing is asking us to ignore all of the safety measures women take as a matter of course and to do it when we are naked.

#notallmen

Can we just take it as read that #notallmen? Seriously, it's not like either Toni or I are dumb or unable to read, and we've both already specified #notallmen multiple times. Can we just get on with it, without us being required to add caveats and disclaimers to every post?

That wasn't a request for Toni to add a caveat and a disclaimer; it was a request for her to look more deeply at the pattern of who was and who wasn't asking women to ignore sensible safety measures. The division wasn't along sex lines.

If you pay attention to the overall pattern of which men in the thread are asking you to ignore all of the safety measures women take as a matter of course and to do it when you are naked, and which men are not asking you to, you can see the malfunction that causes some men to think this way is not testosterone poisoning, but religious poisoning.

Bingo. They have sacrificed rationality on the altar of ideological purity.

I'm going with "their mommas didn't raise them right"

Their daddies didn’t raise them right.

None of this has a damn thing to do with religion.

It has everything to do with religion. If by these men's mommas/daddies "didn't raise them right", you mean they didn't raise them to respect and value women, I don't think that's what the evidence shows. They do respect and value women; they simply prioritize the interests of trans people over the interests of women. That's a religion problem -- they've been taught to make moral judgments by dividing people into groups and ranking a person's interests according to how badly his or her group is oppressed, much the way Christians have been taught to make moral judgments by noting whether the Bible expresses approval or disapproval of some action. But yes, if these men's mommas and daddies had raised them right they'd have been mentally vaccinated against falling for recruitment into the oppression-Olympics cult.

 

[Oleg]

They do respect and value women; they simply prioritize the interests of trans people over the interests of women. That's a religion problem -- they've been taught to make moral judgments by dividing people into groups and ranking a person's interests according to how badly his or her group is oppressed,

German anti-discrimination official under fire for omitting Jews on Holocaust Remembrance

Ferda Ataman, the anti-discrimination commissioner for the German federal government, only acknowledged LGBT+ victims of the holocaust.

www.jpost.com

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't have much of an opinion about drag shows, one way or another. Not my thing, really and I doubt I'll ever go out of my way or fork over money to see one, but...hey, whatever floats your boat, I say. I think most people are probably in agreement with me there. That said, what is supposed to be the goal of having young kids watch a drag show? I get that kids need a break occasionally from the flash cards, times tables and cheezy 16 mm movies, so I don't have a problem with a little diversion once in a while. But, are they funny (for kids, that is)? Educational? What? Seems to me a field trip to a local museum, nature preserve, play or even a magic act might be more entertaining for kids. Maybe if someone makes a case for why it is important for kids to be exposed to drag shows, I'll be more receptive to the idea and not think this all mostly a ploy to "own" and annoy the Repubtards.

From what I've read, children aren't watching drag shows. Sometimes a drag artist reads to children in a library or some other venue. I think it's probably fun and interesting for children to be exposed to people who are a little different from the mainstream. I don't see how that could possibly be harmful. It's just that conservatives, mostly Christians, don't want their children to know anything about people who are gay, trans, or transvestites etc. It's better for children to understand that it's okay to be different. At least that's my perspective on all of this. All one has to do is follow what's going on in Florida to realize how much hate still is still common.

I was raised by white conservatives Christians in an all white neighborhood in NJ, just outside of New York City. I never knew a Black person until I met a few Black girls in high school. Back in those days, gay people were in the closet and we never knew about things like trans folks or drag queens etc. Things are a lot different now, and children should be taught to be tolerant and kind to everyone regardless of race, beliefs, or sexual orientation etc.

 

[thebeave]

I don't have much of an opinion about drag shows, one way or another. Not my thing, really and I doubt I'll ever go out of my way or fork over money to see one, but...hey, whatever floats your boat, I say. I think most people are probably in agreement with me there. That said, what is supposed to be the goal of having young kids watch a drag show? I get that kids need a break occasionally from the flash cards, times tables and cheezy 16 mm movies, so I don't have a problem with a little diversion once in a while. But, are they funny (for kids, that is)? Educational? What? Seems to me a field trip to a local museum, nature preserve, play or even a magic act might be more entertaining for kids. Maybe if someone makes a case for why it is important for kids to be exposed to drag shows, I'll be more receptive to the idea and not think this all mostly a ploy to "own" and annoy the Repubtards.

From what I've read, children aren't watching drag shows. Sometimes a drag artist reads to children in a library or some other venue. I think it's probably fun and interesting for children to be exposed to people who are a little different from the mainstream. I don't see how that could possibly be harmful. It's just that conservatives, mostly Christians, don't want their children to know anything about people who are gay, trans, or transvestites etc. It's better for children to understand that it's okay to be different. At least that's my perspective on all of this. All one has to do is follow what's going on in Florida to realize how much hate still is still common.

I was raised by white conservatives Christians in an all white neighborhood in NJ, just outside of New York City. I never knew a Black person until I met a few Black girls in high school. Back in those days, gay people were in the closet and we never knew about things like trans folks or drag queens etc. Things are a lot different now, and children should be taught to be tolerant and kind to everyone regardless of race, beliefs, or sexual orientation etc.

I guess the definition of a drag show is somewhat subjective, but Wikipedia defines it as:

A drag show is a piece of entertainment consisting of a variety of songs, monologues or skits featuring either single performers or groups of performers in drag meant to entertain an audience.

Seems to me the Drag Queen Story Hour qualifies as a drag show. I don't see why it wouldn't. Here is an example:



Honestly, I think those young kids in the video probably can't really absorb what's going on and what its all about. In fact, in the beginning the drag queen asks who wants to be a drag queen when they grow up, and several kids raise their hands. A drag queen is a performance artist (who can be straight, gay or trans) and the kids probably think of him as just a funny clown or something. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the kids come out of that show thinking gay and/or trans people are like drag queens, when the vast majority are just everyday, average people with 9 to 5 jobs who just want to live their lives the way they want and be respected. Kids should definitely be taught by their schools and parents to be respectful of others different from them, but drag shows don't strike me as the ideal venue for getting that point across. Particularly at those young ages.

 

[TomC]

I was raised by white conservatives Christians in an all white neighborhood in NJ, just outside of New York City. I never knew a Black person until I met a few Black girls in high school. Back in those days, gay people were in the closet and we never knew about things like trans folks or drag queens etc. Things are a lot different now, and children should be taught to be tolerant and kind to everyone regardless of race, beliefs, or sexual orientation etc.

Exactly this^^^^

I grew up in a "diversity free" world. It was a loving and secure world, I wish all kids had parents and family as solid as mine.

But I had to learn that people aren't all the same on my own. I had to learn to value and respect human diversity on my own as an adult. I was lucky, I'd never been taught hate. However, I wish I'd been exposed to more human diversity than I was at the time. When I was an impressionable youth. It would have been easier, for me, to recognize the humanity of people who weren't straight white heterosexual middle-class Catholics from the suburbs.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

427 posts on access to gendered spaces split to: https://iidb.org/threads/gendered-spaces-split-from-drag-shows.26989/

Obviously, with a split this big (broke the software!) I would be surprised if I was 100% accurate in deciding what to split. I did move the posts on menstruation products as that spun from the bathroom issue in the first place. If you think I moved something I shouldn't have, or didn't move something I should please report it.

 

[Rhea]

Thanks for doing the massive work of the split, Loren!

 

[Gospel]

What men in this thread are doing is asking us to ignore all of the safety measures women take as a matter of course and to do it when we are naked.

#notallmen

Can we just take it as read that #notallmen? Seriously, it's not like either Toni or I are dumb or unable to read, and we've both already specified #notallmen multiple times. Can we just get on with it, without us being required to add caveats and disclaimers to every post?

That wasn't a request for Toni to add a caveat and a disclaimer; it was a request for her to look more deeply at the pattern of who was and who wasn't asking women to ignore sensible safety measures. The division wasn't along sex lines.

If you pay attention to the overall pattern of which men in the thread are asking you to ignore all of the safety measures women take as a matter of course and to do it when you are naked, and which men are not asking you to, you can see the malfunction that causes some men to think this way is not testosterone poisoning, but religious poisoning.

Bingo. They have sacrificed rationality on the altar of ideological purity.

I'm going with "their mommas didn't raise them right"

Their daddies didn’t raise them right.

None of this has a damn thing to do with religion.

It has everything to do with religion. If by these men's mommas/daddies "didn't raise them right", you mean they didn't raise them to respect and value women, I don't think that's what the evidence shows. They do respect and value women; they simply prioritize the interests of trans people over the interests of women. That's a religion problem -- they've been taught to make moral judgments by dividing people into groups and ranking a person's interests according to how badly his or her group is oppressed, much the way Christians have been taught to make moral judgments by noting whether the Bible expresses approval or disapproval of some action. But yes, if these men's mommas and daddies had raised them right they'd have been mentally vaccinated against falling for recruitment into the oppression-Olympics cult.

That's you, getting carried away again.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't have much of an opinion about drag shows, one way or another. Not my thing, really and I doubt I'll ever go out of my way or fork over money to see one, but...hey, whatever floats your boat, I say. I think most people are probably in agreement with me there. That said, what is supposed to be the goal of having young kids watch a drag show? I get that kids need a break occasionally from the flash cards, times tables and cheezy 16 mm movies, so I don't have a problem with a little diversion once in a while. But, are they funny (for kids, that is)? Educational? What? Seems to me a field trip to a local museum, nature preserve, play or even a magic act might be more entertaining for kids. Maybe if someone makes a case for why it is important for kids to be exposed to drag shows, I'll be more receptive to the idea and not think this all mostly a ploy to "own" and annoy the Repubtards.

From what I've read, children aren't watching drag shows. Sometimes a drag artist reads to children in a library or some other venue. I think it's probably fun and interesting for children to be exposed to people who are a little different from the mainstream. I don't see how that could possibly be harmful. It's just that conservatives, mostly Christians, don't want their children to know anything about people who are gay, trans, or transvestites etc. It's better for children to understand that it's okay to be different. At least that's my perspective on all of this. All one has to do is follow what's going on in Florida to realize how much hate still is still common.

I was raised by white conservatives Christians in an all white neighborhood in NJ, just outside of New York City. I never knew a Black person until I met a few Black girls in high school. Back in those days, gay people were in the closet and we never knew about things like trans folks or drag queens etc. Things are a lot different now, and children should be taught to be tolerant and kind to everyone regardless of race, beliefs, or sexual orientation etc.

I guess the definition of a drag show is somewhat subjective, but Wikipedia defines it as:

A drag show is a piece of entertainment consisting of a variety of songs, monologues or skits featuring either single performers or groups of performers in drag meant to entertain an audience.

Seems to me the Drag Queen Story Hour qualifies as a drag show. I don't see why it wouldn't. Here is an example:



Honestly, I think those young kids in the video probably can't really absorb what's going on and what its all about. In fact, in the beginning the drag queen asks who wants to be a drag queen when they grow up, and several kids raise their hands. A drag queen is a performance artist (who can be straight, gay or trans) and the kids probably think of him as just a funny clown or something. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the kids come out of that show thinking gay and/or trans people are like drag queens, when the vast majority are just everyday, average people with 9 to 5 jobs who just want to live their lives the way they want and be respected. Kids should definitely be taught by their schools and parents to be respectful of others different from them, but drag shows don't strike me as the ideal venue for getting that point across. Particularly at those young ages.

I suppose it just exposes children to their existence and humanizes them as people instead of hyperbolic hypotheticals used as foils to obtain political and/or religious power.

I think the more important question is how good of a story teller is the person, not how they are dressed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They do respect and value women; they simply prioritize the interests of trans people over the interests of women. That's a religion problem -- they've been taught to make moral judgments by dividing people into groups and ranking a person's interests according to how badly his or her group is oppressed,

German anti-discrimination official under fire for omitting Jews on Holocaust Remembrance

Ferda Ataman, the anti-discrimination commissioner for the German federal government, only acknowledged LGBT+ victims of the holocaust.

www.jpost.com

Under fire might be an exaggeration. As is the exaggeration of her statement in regards to neglecting the horror of the mass slaughter of the Jewish in the Holocust.

link

The German parliament on Friday dedicated its annual Holocaust commemorations for the first time to people killed for their sexual or gender identity, and acknowledged decades of post-war persecution.

Campaigners worked for more than 20 years to establish an official ceremony for LGBTQ victims of the Nazis, saying their experience had long been belittled or forgotten.

Baerbel Bas, president of the Bundestag lower house, said queer survivors of the so-called Third Reich "long had to fight for recognition" of their suffering.

She noted that gay men were murdered, castrated or subjected to horrific "medical" experiments in concentration camps where they formed the "bottom rung of the prisoner hierarchy".

Thousands of lesbians, transgender people and sex workers were branded "degenerates" and also imprisoned at the camps under brutal conditions.

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't have much of an opinion about drag shows, one way or another. Not my thing, really and I doubt I'll ever go out of my way or fork over money to see one, but...hey, whatever floats your boat, I say. I think most people are probably in agreement with me there. That said, what is supposed to be the goal of having young kids watch a drag show? I get that kids need a break occasionally from the flash cards, times tables and cheezy 16 mm movies, so I don't have a problem with a little diversion once in a while. But, are they funny (for kids, that is)? Educational? What? Seems to me a field trip to a local museum, nature preserve, play or even a magic act might be more entertaining for kids. Maybe if someone makes a case for why it is important for kids to be exposed to drag shows, I'll be more receptive to the idea and not think this all mostly a ploy to "own" and annoy the Repubtards.

From what I've read, children aren't watching drag shows. Sometimes a drag artist reads to children in a library or some other venue. I think it's probably fun and interesting for children to be exposed to people who are a little different from the mainstream. I don't see how that could possibly be harmful. It's just that conservatives, mostly Christians, don't want their children to know anything about people who are gay, trans, or transvestites etc. It's better for children to understand that it's okay to be different. At least that's my perspective on all of this. All one has to do is follow what's going on in Florida to realize how much hate still is still common.

I was raised by white conservatives Christians in an all white neighborhood in NJ, just outside of New York City. I never knew a Black person until I met a few Black girls in high school. Back in those days, gay people were in the closet and we never knew about things like trans folks or drag queens etc. Things are a lot different now, and children should be taught to be tolerant and kind to everyone regardless of race, beliefs, or sexual orientation etc.

I guess the definition of a drag show is somewhat subjective, but Wikipedia defines it as:

A drag show is a piece of entertainment consisting of a variety of songs, monologues or skits featuring either single performers or groups of performers in drag meant to entertain an audience.

Seems to me the Drag Queen Story Hour qualifies as a drag show. I don't see why it wouldn't. Here is an example:



Honestly, I think those young kids in the video probably can't really absorb what's going on and what its all about. In fact, in the beginning the drag queen asks who wants to be a drag queen when they grow up, and several kids raise their hands. A drag queen is a performance artist (who can be straight, gay or trans) and the kids probably think of him as just a funny clown or something. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the kids come out of that show thinking gay and/or trans people are like drag queens, when the vast majority are just everyday, average people with 9 to 5 jobs who just want to live their lives the way they want and be respected. Kids should definitely be taught by their schools and parents to be respectful of others different from them, but drag shows don't strike me as the ideal venue for getting that point across. Particularly at those young ages.

I suppose it just exposes children to their existence and humanizes them as people instead of hyperbolic hypotheticals used as foils to obtain political and/or religious power.

I think the more important question is how good of a story teller is the person, not how they are dressed.

I didn't see anything harmful about that little show. I've been to one drag queen show many years ago, and I wouldn't call what that drag queen did as the same as how a drag artist performs for adults. I doubt the youngest children even understood what a drag queen is, other than a person wearing a silly costume reading and singing with them. The book and songs were age appropriate. It's all in fun and hopefully helping children to be open minded regarding those who are a bit different from the mainstream. The parents seemed happy with the show and no parent is being forced to bring a child to things like this. I'd be a lot more concerned about young children being exposed to violent movies and news stories than a person in a silly costume reading children's books to them.

 

[TomC]

The parents seemed happy with the show and no parent is being forced to bring a child to things like this. I'd be a lot more concerned about young children being exposed to violent movies and news stories than a person in a silly costume reading children's books to them.

This is the point that keeps being glossed over. There's a huge array of performance that would qualify as drag. Some borders on obscene. Some is utterly kid friendly. Mostly it's a little bawdy, but nothing more shocking than an old cartoon, like Betty Boop or Bugs Bunny.
A man wearing stereotypical women's attire isn't a threat to anyone in any way. It's the material. And exposure to violence is much worse for impressionable younguns.
Tom