EAC: We're doing a good job!

[skepticalbip]

I live in the Bible Belt and no one has proselytized me in years. The last time was a street preacher who happened to go into an elevator with me. Wasn’t much. Just asked me if I loved Jesus. I’ve lived in my neighborhood for 20+ years and not a single doorbell ringing evangelist.

SLD

Actually, I love Jesus. I think He was a nice guy who was fucked over by bad press.

But he couldn't swim and was too vain to admit it so he hid it by walking on the water.

Which reminds me of a bad joke:
A priest, a rabbi, and a Baptist preacher were fishing. The priest said, "damn, every time I get near water it makes me need to piss". He then stepped out of the boat and walked to the shore to take a leak. When he got back the rabbi said, "now you have made me needing to take a piss". He then stepped out of the boat and walked to the shore and did his business. After he returned to the boat the Baptist preacher said, "OK, now I gotta go to" and with that, he stepped out of the boat and sank. After he resurfaced gasping for air, the rabbi said to him, "you should have walked along rocks on this side of the boat".

 

[Learner]

However, his beliefs His expressed beliefs (Learner) are apparently based on a couple sayings attributed to Jesus but reject other sayings of Jesus'and the overwhelming majority of the Bible . He reminds me of a Buddhist who believes in a god - sorta a contradiction.

Personally, I tend toward Humanism myself but see no reason to believe that there is a god.

You are mistaken and got me wrong again (in bold). You won't find that in any of my previous posts.

 

[Learner]

You got me wrong. The Ten Commandments STILL STAND!! This IS what we will be Judged by! GOD cannot take-back or break any covenant or agreement made with man. We will fall-short of the commandments of course, henceforth ... we need ... a SAVIOR!

We will fall short because the standards are impossible to achieve for humans that were created broken by Biblegod. We will even be judged for the thought crime of coveting things, our neighbors' cattle, their slaves, their wives and so on.

Its difficult to give up worldly things, or control ones own strong emotions giving into harmful desires. Mostly (if not all) they are forgivable! Besides it's good from the POV that the most darkest of thoughts get seen, in manner of speaking. No real nasties gets to hide.

And the only way out of a doomed afterlife is to submit to this god, mind and spirit, and spend our lives as slaves. The game was rigged from the start.

I disagree with the slaves and rigged-from-the-start contextual bit. Overall, biblically (and sounding arrogant) as according to scripture... Them's the Rules!

 

[Keith&Co.]

I disagree with ...rigged-from-the-start contextual bit. Overall

At the end of Noah's Flood, god realizes that Mankind is just wicked by nature.
Everything he was trying to erase by drowning every man, woman, child, toddler, baby, fetus, and blastocyst is just part of the way mankind was made. So the Flood was without effect or purpose.
Mankind minus (all wicked mankind (except 8)) = wicked Mankind, still.

So, yeah, rigged from the start. That's what the Bible fucking says.

 

[Learner]

So when God says for example : HE regrets creating man with a sorrowful heart when man became corrupted and so on. Does that still mean its rigged? I dinae think so. Not forgetting, there were NO commandments or Covenants at the very begininng, only AFTER the flood, starting first with Enoch, the rest is (biblical) history.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So when God says for example : HE regrets creating man with a sorrowful heart when man became corrupted and so on. Does that still mean its rigged?

Depends. Are we still being held accountable for things that are not in our control? For our nature?

Whether it's wickedness or sexual preference or whatever, if God put it there AND uses it as a pretext for eternal damnation, then yes, the fix is in.

I dinae think so. Not forgetting, there were NO commandments or Covenants at the very begininng, only AFTER the flood,

God's listed justification for the Flood was not 'Damn it, they're not keeping the Covenant' or 'Shit, they're disobeying my word.'
It just says they were wicked. The verse right before 'God repented making the little fuckers.'

And in the after-party, god took a couple hits of sacrificial smoke and realized man just IS wicked.

All the commandments do is quantify how we're wicked. Doesn't make wickedness any less a part of our nature, doesn't offer any loopholes for not being damned by wickedness that's inherent to being human.

 

[skepticalbip]

However, his beliefs His expressed beliefs (Learner) are apparently based on a couple sayings attributed to Jesus but reject other sayings of Jesus'and the overwhelming majority of the Bible . He reminds me of a Buddhist who believes in a god - sorta a contradiction.

Personally, I tend toward Humanism myself but see no reason to believe that there is a god.

You are mistaken and got me wrong again (in bold). You won't find that in any of my previous posts.

Really? I get from your posts that the most important lesson is to be kind, caring, generous, etc. However, if we go by Christian and Jesus' teachings, then people like Ghandi and the Dali Lama are condemned to hell (they don't accept Jesus as the only way) while someone who was real evil ass hole for seventy years will get a first class ticket to heaven if he repents and accepts Jesus as divine on his death bed, never having done anything to help or care for others.

 

[Learner]

Depends. Are we still being held accountable for things that are not in our control? For our nature?

Like murder, rape, abusing chidren and other victims, stealing and robbing from others? Do you stop yourself from doing them?

These are intelligent decisive thoughts for intention, influenced by practises perhaps, from other people seen or heard about, through generations of bad habits, and satan. Animals and beasts in the wild, apparently are not known to do these things naturally. (Im not righteous myself)

Whether it's wickedness or sexual preference or whatever, if God put it there AND uses it as a pretext for eternal damnation, then yes, the fix is in.

God's listed justification for the Flood was not 'Damn it, they're not keeping the Covenant' or 'Shit, they're disobeying my word.'
It just says they were wicked. The verse right before 'God repented making the little fuckers.'

And in the after-party, god took a couple hits of sacrificial smoke and realized man just IS wicked.

God regrets / repents.....as I read it: there was no intention for evil to overun the world. This world was meant to be perfect. Knowledge of "how to" be wicked is all credited to satan and fallen angels (taking wives etc.etc..).

All the commandments do is quantify how we're wicked. Doesn't make wickedness any less a part of our nature, doesn't offer any loopholes for not being damned by wickedness that's inherent to being human.

These are the rules, as the Gospels go... we need a saviour. Wickedness and sinning varies by weight across the scale, as I understand it, and obviously in this faith - it is individually a case by case basis. Most, if not all sins, can be forgiven.

 

[Learner]

You are mistaken and got me wrong again (in bold). You won't find that in any of my previous posts.

Really? I get from your posts that the most important lesson is to be kind, caring, generous, etc. However, if we go by Christian and Jesus' teachings, then people like Ghandi and the Dali Lama are condemned to hell (they don't accept Jesus as the only way) while someone who was real evil ass hole for seventy years will get a first class ticket to heaven if he repents and accepts Jesus as divine on his death bed, never having done anything to help or care for others.

I knew you misunderstood. Its not about me rejecting any part of the bible by picking and choosing but rather ... a disagreement with your conceptual context:

Humans/Christians are to be kind to everyone. It is God that judges every aspect of their lives, and who HE decides to get the ticket, as you put it.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Like murder, rape, abusing chidren and other victims, stealing and robbing from others?

The bible doesn't specify the wickedness that God thought was worth destroying all life minus 8, 4 and 14 of every species. Just wickedness and flights of unlimited imagination. So, gay, perhaps. Do you think gays go to Hell for being gay?
Do you think lusting after a woman in your heart is a sin? hard to control that initial reaction. And by some religious traditions, those thoughts condemn us. That whole 'fight, flight, or fuck' response occurs in milliseconds, below our conscious mind. Do we suffer afterlife consequences for those thoughts? Does anyone go to hell for uncontrollable lust in their hearts?

I have a questioning mind. I sought God for a long, long time, trying to find actual evidence of the god i believed in, rather than platitudes and fairy tales and people that got upset i questioned their traditional responses. One day, i realized i had become an atheist. It wasn't a choice i made, just questions that were never answered. I cannot just will myself to believe one of the thousands of offered gods. Am i hellbent for that?

Do you stop yourself from doing them? These are intelligent decisive thoughts for intention, influenced by practises perhaps, from other people seen or heard about, through generations of bad habits, and satan.

Buuuuut, God doesn't say that man's nature is to be susceptible to Satan. Just that we're inherently wicked-whatever-that-is.

God regrets / repents.....as I read it: there was no intention for evil to overun the world. This world was meant to be perfect. Knowledge of "how to" be wicked is all credited to satan and fallen angels (taking wives etc.etc..).

A cite would be really handy right here.
Where does it say that we were born wicked, but didn't know how to wicked until evil beings were allowed to teach us?

All the commandments do is quantify how we're wicked. Doesn't make wickedness any less a part of our nature, doesn't offer any loopholes for not being damned by wickedness that's inherent to being human.

These are the rules, as the Gospels go... we need a saviour.

But why? If we break the rules just by the fact that we're born, and follow the nature that develops, why are we held accountable for those rules?

Wickedness and sinning varies by weight across the scale, as I understand it, and obviously in this faith - it is individually a case by case basis. Most, not all sins, can be forgiven.

Yes, but why are they even sins in the first place?
How many kids suffered in school for being left-handed? Just because left is the 'sinister' side?

Makes about as much sense.

 

[Learner]

BB in a little while.

 

[skepticalbip]

You are mistaken and got me wrong again (in bold). You won't find that in any of my previous posts.

Really? I get from your posts that the most important lesson is to be kind, caring, generous, etc. However, if we go by Christian and Jesus' teachings, then people like Ghandi and the Dali Lama are condemned to hell (they don't accept Jesus as the only way) while someone who was real evil ass hole for seventy years will get a first class ticket to heaven if he repents and accepts Jesus as divine on his death bed, never having done anything to help or care for others.

I knew you misunderstood. Its not about me rejecting any part of the bible by picking and choosing but rather ... a disagreement with your conceptual context:

Humans/Christians are to be kind to everyone. It is God that judges every aspect of their lives, and who HE decides to get the ticket, as you put it.

Not according to Jesus. The sinner who repents and accepts him goes ahead of others who have not sinned. No one, regardless of how worthy they were, gets in unless they have accepted Jesus.

By Jesus' teachings, Gandhi and the Dali Lama are condemned to hell (they didn't accept him as the only way) so their good life carries no weight in the judgement. Apparently, once past this first hurdle and only after that hurdle, then the life is judged.

ETA:
It looks like this scheme was a recruiting tool by those who wrote the Bible. The pagan couldn't say that they couldn't get into heaven because they had already lived a life condemned by Christians so it would serve no purpose joining. The recruiters could tell them, "No, no. Since you are a non-believing sinner, if you accept Jesus then you will go ahead of the other Christians."

 

[Worldtraveller]

If Learner of all people isn't a true Christian, there must not be very many true Christians.

okay...

I would say Poli finally got something right.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Yes, but when you meet someone who isn't in fact wagging a book, or just isn't wagging a book in the way you're most familiar with, you're like "Well you're not a REAL Christian then." If Learner of all people isn't a true Christian, there must not be very many true Christians.

Agreed. I think Learner has been extremely polite and forthcoming all along. Gentle and tolerant as well.

I agree that Learner is "extremely polite and forthcoming". However, his beliefs as he expresses them would be of a Humanist who assumes there is a Humanist god, not as a Christian. His expressed beliefs are apparently based on a couple sayings attributed to Jesus but reject other sayings of Jesus' and the overwhelming majority of the Bible. He reminds me of a Buddhist who believes in a god - sorta a contradiction.

Personally, I tend toward Humanism myself but see no reason to believe that there is a god.

Learner's beliefs also seem wildly contradictory and conflicting, so yeah, true xian!

 

[Learner]

I knew you misunderstood. Its not about me rejecting any part of the bible by picking and choosing but rather ... a disagreement with your conceptual context:

Humans/Christians are to be kind to everyone. It is God that judges every aspect of their lives, and who HE decides to get the ticket, as you put it.

Not according to Jesus. The sinner who repents and accepts him goes ahead of others who have not sinned. No one, regardless of how worthy they were, gets in unless they have accepted Jesus.

Thats true for those who believe as according to Jesus... and if Gandhi or the Dalai Lama accepts HIM, it would be an automatic pass...

By Jesus' teachings, Gandhi and the Dali Lama are condemned to hell (they didn't accept him as the only way) so their good life carries no weight in the judgement. Apparently, once past this first hurdle and only after that hurdle, then the life is judged.

ETA:
It looks like this scheme was a recruiting tool by those who wrote the Bible. The pagan couldn't say that they couldn't get into heaven because they had already lived a life condemned by Christians so it would serve no purpose joining. The recruiters could tell them, "No, no. Since you are a non-believing sinner, if you accept Jesus then you will go ahead of the other Christians."

.. Not accepting Jesus it's then all up to God from this point (Ghandi and Dalai lama), but as you rightly said, according to the gospel, Hell does look the more obvious so far.

 

[Learner]

Learner's beliefs also seem wildly contradictory and conflicting, so yeah, true xian!

This we could discuss, but anyhow, you maybe onto sumink. It could be that I'm a light-weight-knowlegeable Christian compared to others out there.

 

[skepticalbip]

Thats true for those who believe as according to Jesus... and if Gandhi or the Dalai Lama accepts HIM, it would be an automatic pass...

By Jesus' teachings, Gandhi and the Dali Lama are condemned to hell (they didn't accept him as the only way) so their good life carries no weight in the judgement. Apparently, once past this first hurdle and only after that hurdle, then the life is judged.

ETA:
It looks like this scheme was a recruiting tool by those who wrote the Bible. The pagan couldn't say that they couldn't get into heaven because they had already lived a life condemned by Christians so it would serve no purpose joining. The recruiters could tell them, "No, no. Since you are a non-believing sinner, if you accept Jesus then you will go ahead of the other Christians."

.. Not accepting Jesus it's then all up to God from this point (Ghandi and Dalai lama), but as you rightly said, according to the gospel, Hell does look the more obvious so far.

You seem to be back to demonstrating what I said. You accept the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Bible that you like but reject the ones attributed to him that you don't like. So, as I said, you seem to be creating your own religion and only call yourself Christian because it sounds good to you.

I tend to be Humanist too so I like how you describe how humans should be, but it's not the way Christians and the Bible teach. People should be nice to each other and help each other because they are humans, not to buy themselves a seat in some heaven.

 

[Rhea]

Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
Depends. Are we still being held accountable for things that are not in our control? For our nature?

Like murder, rape, abusing chidren and other victims, stealing and robbing from others? Do you stop yourself from doing them?

You know he was not talking about those. Why did you decide to dodge the question?
He’s talking about ones like believing, which can’t be forced or pretended. Or feelings of lust or covetousness.

These are intelligent decisive thoughts for intention, influenced by practises perhaps, from other people seen or heard about, through generations of bad habits, and satan. Animals and beasts in the wild, apparently are not known to do these things naturally.

What? Who told you that?
Animals murder, rape and steal. All the time. They also fail to believe in a god, and they never respect the sabbath. They also do the gay.

You need to get your money back for your schoolin’.

God regrets / repents.....as I read it: there was no intention for evil to overun the world. This world was meant to be perfect.

But your god couldn’t do it right, eh? Weak loser god? And you pay the price?

Knowledge of "how to" be wicked is all credited to satan and fallen angels (taking wives etc.etc..).

Can you remind me why god create satan and fallen angels, again?
I never did figure out how a character who supposedly knew everything before it happened got stuck in such a nonsensical plot device.
But there you have it. The god knew in advance that the satan character was going to destroy the rest of the characters, and he made satan anyway. It’s hard to suspend disbelief in a novel with such a swiss cheese story arc, you know?

But yeah. Why did god make satan?

 

[Politesse]

Thats true for those who believe as according to Jesus... and if Gandhi or the Dalai Lama accepts HIM, it would be an automatic pass...

By Jesus' teachings, Gandhi and the Dali Lama are condemned to hell (they didn't accept him as the only way) so their good life carries no weight in the judgement. Apparently, once past this first hurdle and only after that hurdle, then the life is judged.

ETA:
It looks like this scheme was a recruiting tool by those who wrote the Bible. The pagan couldn't say that they couldn't get into heaven because they had already lived a life condemned by Christians so it would serve no purpose joining. The recruiters could tell them, "No, no. Since you are a non-believing sinner, if you accept Jesus then you will go ahead of the other Christians."

.. Not accepting Jesus it's then all up to God from this point (Ghandi and Dalai lama), but as you rightly said, according to the gospel, Hell does look the more obvious so far.

You seem to be back to demonstrating what I said. You accept the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Bible that you like but reject the ones attributed to him that you don't like. So, as I said, you seem to be creating your own religion and only call yourself Christian because it sounds good to you.

I tend to be Humanist too so I like how you describe how humans should be, but it's not the way Christians and the Bible teach. People should be nice to each other and help each other because they are humans, not to buy themselves a seat in some heaven.

So according to you, a person is only a "true Christian" if they agree with everything attributed to Jesus in the Bible?

 

[skepticalbip]

You seem to be back to demonstrating what I said. You accept the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Bible that you like but reject the ones attributed to him that you don't like. So, as I said, you seem to be creating your own religion and only call yourself Christian because it sounds good to you.

I tend to be Humanist too so I like how you describe how humans should be, but it's not the way Christians and the Bible teach. People should be nice to each other and help each other because they are humans, not to buy themselves a seat in some heaven.

So according to you, a person is only a "true Christian" if they agree with everything attributed to Jesus in the Bible?

It is a matter of definitions... words have meanings. Only Humpty-Dumpty can get away with claiming that words mean exactly what he wants them to mean. (Because Lewis Carol wrote that as satire)