EAC: We're doing a good job!

[T.G.G. Moogly]

As an historical artifact the bible is something useful, it's like fossilized bones. But as a guide as to how to live one's life it is useless without ignoring large contradictory parts. It's like my stating that all the books at my library are my guide to how I live my life. Clearly many are not.

The bible is a little condensed library that very, very few christians ever bother to read or read to their children. They just see it as some kind of symbol.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Yes, indeed. What I wish to know: where are the sermons being preached on...
all the tribes that deserved to be exterminated? (DEUT 7)
the requirement to execute anyone who teaches you to worship a different god (DEUT 13)
how to beat your slaves to death legally (EX 21)
the foolproof way to use muddy water to catch your wife in adultery (NUM 5)
the requirement to pay your taxes and not resist them (ROMANS 13)
Wherever that church is, I'll attend. It'd be cheaper than buying Adam Sandler DVDs.

 

[Politesse]

Maybe you missed that the topic is the Bible. If we were discussing zucchini would you think I was obsessed with zucchini?

I wouldn't support treating any book that way, I value books far more than religions.

You would make for a piss poor parent if you would tell your kids to use a how-to book that had sections that you knew would result in harm to them. A good parent would tear out or blacken those sections of an otherwise helpful guide before directing their children to follow it.

I see we do not agree on parenting any more than we do on literary theory. Which is unsurprising given your conservative tendencies. My child and I would have a discussion about why I felt the instructions were in error, but I would not go ripping up books for them.

I said you were obsessing about the Bible because you were establishing special rules for it. But apparently not. You're an equal opportunity book ripper.

 

[skepticalbip]

Maybe you missed that the topic is the Bible. If we were discussing zucchini would you think I was obsessed with zucchini?

I wouldn't support treating any book that way, I value books far more than religions.

You would make for a piss poor parent if you would tell your kids to use a how-to book that had sections that you knew would result in harm to them. A good parent would tear out or blacken those sections of an otherwise helpful guide before directing their children to follow it.

I see we do not agree on parenting any more than we do on literary theory. Which is unsurprising given your conservative tendencies. My child and I would have a discussion about why I felt the instructions were in error, but I would not go ripping up books for them.

I said you were obsessing about the Bible because you were establishing special rules for it. But apparently not. You're an equal opportunity book ripper.

"Book ripper"? Bull shit.

If you went through the how-to book with your kid pointing out the errors and having him strike them out or make bold error notations in the book so he wouldn't forget and mistakenly follow bad instructions later then that is the same result as you striking them out.

I see books as useful for a few different and independent purposes.
... As pure entertainment.
... Learning the views of others.
... Learning history.
... Learning how things work.
... How-to books as learning the best procedure for accomplishing a desired goal.
... etc.

A book that has egregious errors and heinous lessons should not be presented as a guide to "a proper life" to those who's minds are being shaped... especially if the one presenting it knows of the errors.

As ideologyhunter posted above, show me a church that has sermons pointing out to the congregation all the absurdities in the Bible and you will have a fan. Unfortunately, church leaders present the Bible as the infallible word of god even though they know better if they attended seminary.

 

[Politesse]

There is a huge difference between education and censorship. With education, we are empowered to make rational choices in what we encounter or conclude. With censorship, we are disempowered, the choice having been made "for our own good" by someone else.

There are, of course, many such churches. As before in this very discussion, when atheists encounter such Christians, rather than learning anything from the exchange, they say "well you are not a REAL Christian then" or "Well those are not the Christians I was talking about" and ignore whatever has just been pointed out, not even bothering to remember that they ever met a liberal before.

 

[skepticalbip]

There is a huge difference between education and censorship. With education, we are empowered to make rational choices in what we encounter or conclude. With censorship, we are disempowered, the choice having been made "for our own good" by someone else.

It is well known that kids in their teens believe they are invincible. They take extraordinary risks even though their parents have 'educated' them on the dangers. It is the parents' responsibility to try to protect them. For instance, I personally wouldn't want them reading about and learning ingenious methods of defeating safety devices on something like power tools even though I would encourage them to learn the proper use of those tools. Many kids, even though they were 'educated' to follow safety procedures, will bypass them if they know how and think it makes the work easier. "I told him not to do that" does not replace a missing arm.

There are, of course, many such churches. As before in this very discussion, when atheists encounter such Christians, rather than learning anything from the exchange, they say "well you are not a REAL Christian then" or "Well those are not the Christians I was talking about" and ignore whatever has just been pointed out, not even bothering to remember that they ever met a liberal before.

Logical error. You are mixing general and specific.

I know and have known several Christians who are not fundamentalists, but who acknowledge the absurdities in the Bible. My criticism is those who refuse to admit (or maybe are ignorant) of them.

 

[atrib]

So we would be more "true" if we... censored books??

How do you get from:
"I don't agree with certain parts of the Bible and I removed those portions from my copy"
to:
"The book should be censored before it is distributed to the public"?

 

[Politesse]

So we would be more "true" if we... censored books??

How do you get from:
"I don't agree with certain parts of the Bible and I removed those portions from my copy"
to:
"The book should be censored before it is distributed to the public"?

What would be the point of removing portions from just your own personal copy without distributing it or encouraging others to do the same?

I mean, presumably you remember what parts you took out, so I don't see how going wild with a magic marker is supposed to create any sweeping social changes as described above.

Indeed, if no one even knows you did it, how is that functionally different from just not being a fucking literalist in the first place, aside from the one-time thrill of defacing a book?

 

[Rhea]

So your problem isn't the book. It's that other people claim any religious identity at all.

My goodness. How many times in one thread can you utterly misstate my clear point? It can’t be accidental at this point.

I have a problem with the book. It invites oppression. It wouldn’t be a big deal except for how many people wag it around as something “sacred” and important. And that wouldn’t be a problem if the only people wagging it were the ostensibly small group of fanatics. But the fanatics are bolstered in their oppression by the loyalty shown by all the people who claim to be moderate or liberal, but who wag the SAME book, giving cover to the zealots as some kind of majority.

And I know at this point you’ll say, “so you’re saying I don’t know how to read,” or some other absurd straw man, and you’ll pretend you don’t understand what I wrote at all, but I write this clarification not for you, but for the others reading the exchange who are not driven to erect an unrecognizable straw man to avoid facing the relevant point.

 

[Rhea]

You are obsessing over the Bible. I wouldn't support treating any book that way, I value books far more than religions.

I also value books far more than religions. But I sure don’t insist on using the first edition no matter what advances are made in knowledge!

Take for instance the “Bible” of my profession...

The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics is a comprehensive one-volume reference resource for science research, currently in its 100th edition (ISBN 978-1138367296 with 1532 pages, 1000 black-and-white illustrations, June 7, 2019, Editor-in-Chief John R. Rumble). It is sometimes nicknamed the "Rubber Bible" or the "Rubber Book", as CRC originally stood for "Chemical Rubber Company".

One Hundredth edition. 100th.
Hugely valuable. Not uneditable, though. That would be stupid.

 

[Rhea]

I see we do not agree on parenting any more than we do on literary theory. Which is unsurprising given your conservative tendencies. My child and I would have a discussion about why I felt the instructions were in error, but I would not go ripping up books for them.

More hyperbole.
I even have a bible in my house, but I tell the kids, THIS book is full of harmful crap. Read this only as a historical reference to the way brutal people once believed.
Instead, I get a new book that has the good parts and none of the bad parts. And we discuss that one as a way of living.
Also, I wrote them their own book.

I don’t make them mix up good parts and bad parts and try to figure that insanity out.

I CURATE for them.


But even more, I do not wag the nasty book in the faces of others and try to get them to cleave to my view, nor do I wag the nasty book and say, “I agree with chapter 4, but I’m wedded to all the other chapters as so important even though I just tried too say I didn’t agree with them. The book MUST remain as one!” And let the zealots say, “see? He’s one of us.”

 

[Rhea]

There is a huge difference between education and censorship. With education, we are empowered to make rational choices in what we encounter or conclude. With censorship, we are disempowered, the choice having been made "for our own good" by someone else.

Please note: “Censorship” is your game, not mine or anyone else talking here.
Please also note, the 99 subsequent editions of the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics is not “censorship.” That is laughable.


Come on, Politesse, this is comical that you are resorting to the “censorship!!1!” card in a discussion about how the bibles “good parts” don’t need the bad parts so what is the good in keeping them if you keep asserting that you don’t agree with the bad parts and they have no power.


That’s the thing here. As long as you and every other liberal and moderate christian REFUSE to abandon the bad parts, you can’t truthfully claim that you are not promoting them. And that you are giving the bad parts power.

Own it. You are okay promoting the bad parts because getting rid of them and taking away their “sacred” status is too terrifying to contemplate, and so, support them you will. You give them continued power in our society. On purpose. Own it.

 

[Politesse]

But even more, I do not wag the nasty book in the faces of others and try to get them to cleave to my view, nor do I wag the nasty book and say, “I agree with chapter 4, but I’m wedded to all the other chapters as so important even though I just tried too say I didn’t agree with them. The book MUST remain as one!”

No one said that in the first place.

 

[SLD]

Yes, but when you meet someone who isn't in fact wagging a book, or just isn't wagging a book in the way you're most familiar with, you're like "Well you're not a REAL Christian then." If Learner of all people isn't a true Christian, there must not be very many true Christians.

Agreed. I think Learner has been extremely polite and forthcoming all along. Gentle and tolerant as well.

I agree that Learner is "extremely polite and forthcoming". However, his beliefs as he expresses them would be of a Humanist who assumes there is a Humanist god, not as a Christian. His expressed beliefs are apparently based on a couple sayings attributed to Jesus but reject other sayings of Jesus' and the overwhelming majority of the Bible. He reminds me of a Buddhist who believes in a god - sorta a contradiction.

Personally, I tend toward Humanism myself but see no reason to believe that there is a god.

I sat through many a church sermon that I would consider Humanist. I think for that reason it took me longer to come to freeethought.

Maybe both of you worship the same thing? What you and I call Nature, he calls God. Maybe the only difference between us are our rituals. We both study "God's" law, but use different books. Frankly, I really don’t care as long as one side doesn’t try to force others to use their books exclusively.

SLD

 

[steve_bank]

When I was in Memphis early 70s it was common to be approached on the street.

Here in Seattle I have been handed pamphlets getting into a car/

Evangelicals have a saying, convert the world one person at a time.

I'd have to look up chapter and verse, Christians believe they are ordained and commissioned by Jesus to prostheetize.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

When I was in Memphis early 70s it was common to be approached on the street.

Here in Seattle I have been handed pamphlets getting into a car/

Evangelicals have a saying, convert the world one person at a time.

I'd have to look up chapter and verse, Christians believe they are ordained and commissioned by Jesus to prostheetize.

I had a colleague who would from time to time call me up ask me If I found Jesus Christ. I would Just reply, I didn;t know he was missing.....

I also like when the people come to my door to give me the word of God. I tell them I have plenty of toilet paper.......

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

When I was in Memphis early 70s it was common to be approached on the street.

Here in Seattle I have been handed pamphlets getting into a car/

Evangelicals have a saying, convert the world one person at a time.

I'd have to look up chapter and verse, Christians believe they are ordained and commissioned by Jesus to prostheetize.

Mark 16
¹⁵ And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
¹⁶ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 28
¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


These are the verses that many evangelists believe mandate them to proselytize to one and all.

 

[SLD]

When I was in Memphis early 70s it was common to be approached on the street.

Here in Seattle I have been handed pamphlets getting into a car/

Evangelicals have a saying, convert the world one person at a time.

I'd have to look up chapter and verse, Christians believe they are ordained and commissioned by Jesus to prostheetize.

Mark 16
¹⁵ And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
¹⁶ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 28
¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


These are the verses that many evangelists believe mandate them to proselytize to one and all.

I live in the Bible Belt and no one has proselytized me in years. The last time was a street preacher who happened to go into an elevator with me. Wasn’t much. Just asked me if I loved Jesus. I’ve lived in my neighborhood for 20+ years and not a single doorbell ringing evangelist.

SLD

 

[southernhybrid]

When I was in Memphis early 70s it was common to be approached on the street.

Here in Seattle I have been handed pamphlets getting into a car/

Evangelicals have a saying, convert the world one person at a time.

I'd have to look up chapter and verse, Christians believe they are ordained and commissioned by Jesus to prostheetize.

Mark 16
¹⁵ And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
¹⁶ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 28
¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


These are the verses that many evangelists believe mandate them to proselytize to one and all.

I live in the Bible Belt and no one has proselytized me in years. The last time was a street preacher who happened to go into an elevator with me. Wasn’t much. Just asked me if I loved Jesus. I’ve lived in my neighborhood for 20+ years and not a single doorbell ringing evangelist.

SLD

Same here. The last time somebody tried to "save" me was at least 15 years ago. The Mormons don't even come around anymore. I figure since the vast majority of residents here are Christians, they probably assume that all of us are Christians. Plus, who hasn't heard of the nutty Christian message by now?. They've had over 2000 years to preach it. We have well over 50 churches in a town of about 30,000 people. I live within walking distance of four churches. One is on the corner of my very residential street. We have store front churches all over the place, a church in what was once a movie theatre, and one that was previously a restaurant. They are everywhere!

 

[WAB]

When I was in Memphis early 70s it was common to be approached on the street.

Here in Seattle I have been handed pamphlets getting into a car/

Evangelicals have a saying, convert the world one person at a time.

I'd have to look up chapter and verse, Christians believe they are ordained and commissioned by Jesus to prostheetize.

Mark 16
¹⁵ And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
¹⁶ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 28
¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


These are the verses that many evangelists believe mandate them to proselytize to one and all.

I live in the Bible Belt and no one has proselytized me in years. The last time was a street preacher who happened to go into an elevator with me. Wasn’t much. Just asked me if I loved Jesus. I’ve lived in my neighborhood for 20+ years and not a single doorbell ringing evangelist.

SLD

Actually, I love Jesus. I think He was a nice guy who was fucked over by bad press.