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Early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

Keith&Co.

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Allah is Ar-Rahman : The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful in Essence, The Compassionate, The Most Gracious

And yet all he wants from humans is a form of slavery: And I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me… (Quran, 51:56-58)


:)
explain to me how allah want human to be slave?
Pretty clear, really.
If he's all-powerful, and all-knowing, he'd have known a way to get humans to civilize without needing a phase with slavery, and it would have been within his power to do so.

If he tolerated slavery, he must have wanted it.
OR, he's not all-powerful and all-knowing.

You do want God to be all-powerful and all-knowing, right, Syed?
Then he must have had a reason for making slavery necessary, and standing by with his thumb up his ineffable ass while people practiced it. Esp. after money was invented.
 

Syed

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Isn't it amazing how religious people claim that atheists are immoral, yet all their moral arguments eventually reduce to 'might makes right?'

Slavery does one thing and one thing only: bestow wealth and power upon the slave owners. It may be that a warrior, supported by slaves, might be better armed and better trained than the ones a free society can produce. In that way, slavery would spread. That doesn't mean it is right, or necessary.

tell us how would roman, egypt and greek would have built their civilization without slavery?
 

Syed

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Allah is Ar-Rahman : The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful in Essence, The Compassionate, The Most Gracious

And yet all he wants from humans is a form of slavery: And I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me… (Quran, 51:56-58)


:)
explain to me how allah want human to be slave?
Pretty clear, really.
If he's all-powerful, and all-knowing, he'd have known a way to get humans to civilize without needing a phase with slavery, and it would have been within his power to do so.

If he tolerated slavery, he must have wanted it.
OR, he's not all-powerful and all-knowing.

You do want God to be all-powerful and all-knowing, right, Syed?
Then he must have had a reason for making slavery necessary, and standing by with his thumb up his ineffable ass while people practiced it. Esp. after money was invented.
let say there is no god and every one is atheists and money have not been invented by human and no one work for other for free

what would you do to create commercial civilization then?
 

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I acknowledged that slave societies might have been more powerful than non slave societies.

You are claiming ALLAH couldn't build a civilization without slavery. Why not?
 

Syed

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

I just want you to know what my take home message is on this post, Syed. I want you to know what you've said to me.

You've reaffirmed for me that religion is evil. It can suspend people's logical thinking and moral sense to an almost unlimited degree. It can suspend them to such an extreme degree that they say things as disgusting as your opening post.
lol

No, it upsets you to know that your best efforts to promote your religion have no effect other than to inspire disgust, so you're doing your best to upset me in turn.

It's about as effective as your best efforts to spread your religion: The notion of your pain is vaguely pleasing.
why cant you argue about my OP?
 

Syed

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let say there is no god and every one is atheists and money have not been invented by human and no one work for other for free

what would you do to create commercial civilization then?

First thing, invent money. Duh.
how would you invent money when you dont even have civil society, no paper , no iron, no governing body, no home, human are living in cave?

slavery started when human still living in caves
 

Syed

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I acknowledged that slave societies might have been more powerful than non slave societies.

You are claiming ALLAH couldn't build a civilization without slavery. Why not?

allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization

- - - Updated - - -

I acknowledged that slave societies might have been more powerful than non slave societies.

You are claiming ALLAH couldn't build a civilization without slavery. Why not?

again

tell us how would roman, egypt and greek would have built their civilization without slavery?
 

Keith&Co.

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If he tolerated slavery, he must have wanted it.
OR, he's not all-powerful and all-knowing.
let say there is no god
How about we say that Syed is once again refusing to explore the logical consequences of his bare assertions by deflecting the topic.
COULD GOD have created human civilization without slavery, Syed?
If so, why didn't he?
If not, why do you call him all-powerful?
 

Mageth

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let say there is no god and every one is atheists and money have not been invented by human and no one work for other for free

what would you do to create commercial civilization then?

First thing, invent money. Duh.
how would you invent money when you dont even have civil society, no paper , no iron, no governing body, no home, human are living in cave?

"You invent moving goalpost, OOG!!!"

Ever heard of the barter system? It's not far from there to using pretty shiny things (seashells, etc.) as tokens...or currency.

slavery started when human still living in caves

No evidence of record to support this assertion. In any case, I'd wager bartering came first.
 

Keith&Co.

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allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization
Okay. Allah didn't need slavery. Got it.
Humans needed slavery. Allah allowed them to own slaves.
Allah must have wanted human slavery to exist.
Why did Allah want human slavery to exist, Syed?
 

The Paul

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

I just want you to know what my take home message is on this post, Syed. I want you to know what you've said to me.

You've reaffirmed for me that religion is evil. It can suspend people's logical thinking and moral sense to an almost unlimited degree. It can suspend them to such an extreme degree that they say things as disgusting as your opening post.
lol

No, it upsets you to know that your best efforts to promote your religion have no effect other than to inspire disgust, so you're doing your best to upset me in turn.

It's about as effective as your best efforts to spread your religion: The notion of your pain is vaguely pleasing.
why cant you argue about my OP?

Because it's an embodiment of the core evil of religion from which all the other evils spring.

I could go into detail, in the same sense that I could recover a marble after my dog swallows it.
 

Sarpedon

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You just don't get it. The reason that slavery was universal was that slave societies were stronger than non slave societies, back in the day. You ASSUME that it is impossible for a non-slave society to develop a civilization. That is nonsense. If slave societies conquer non slave societies, there's no telling what the non slave societies could have accomplished if they had been let alone. You assume that because something happened one way, it MUST have happened that way. That is what we take issue with.
 

Syed

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

I just want you to know what my take home message is on this post, Syed. I want you to know what you've said to me.

You've reaffirmed for me that religion is evil. It can suspend people's logical thinking and moral sense to an almost unlimited degree. It can suspend them to such an extreme degree that they say things as disgusting as your opening post.
lol

No, it upsets you to know that your best efforts to promote your religion have no effect other than to inspire disgust, so you're doing your best to upset me in turn.

It's about as effective as your best efforts to spread your religion: The notion of your pain is vaguely pleasing.
why cant you argue about my OP?

Because it's an embodiment of the core evil of religion from which all the other evils spring.

I could go into detail, in the same sense that I could recover a marble after my dog swallows it.

so what do you want to talk in general religions forum?
 

Keith&Co.

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so what do you want to talk in general religions forum?
Why ask?
You only want to talk about your assertions until they're questioned, then you want to talk about deflections, derails and a major shift of the burden of goalposts onto your readers.

Why did God tolerate slavery after money was invented, Syed?
 

Syed

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allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization
Okay. Allah didn't need slavery. Got it.
Humans needed slavery. Allah allowed them to own slaves.
Allah must have wanted human slavery to exist.
Why did Allah want human slavery to exist, Syed?

allah didnt want human slavery to exist but he accepted this is the only way human will makes progress
 

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allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization
Okay. Allah didn't need slavery. Got it.
Humans needed slavery. Allah allowed them to own slaves.
Allah must have wanted human slavery to exist.
Why did Allah want human slavery to exist, Syed?

allah didnt want human slavery to exist but he accepted this is the only way human will makes progress
which begs the question "is slavery progress?"
 

Syed

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so what do you want to talk in general religions forum?
Why ask?
You only want to talk about your assertions until they're questioned, then you want to talk about deflections, derails and a major shift of the burden of goalposts onto your readers.

Why did God tolerate slavery after money was invented, Syed?
1) paul can answer that question he dont need your help

2) he said to free slave

- - - Updated - - -

allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization
Okay. Allah didn't need slavery. Got it.
Humans needed slavery. Allah allowed them to own slaves.
Allah must have wanted human slavery to exist.
Why did Allah want human slavery to exist, Syed?

allah didnt want human slavery to exist but he accepted this is the only way human will makes progress
which begs the question "is slavery progress?"
human made progress because of slavery
 

braces_for_impact

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

I just want you to know what my take home message is on this post, Syed. I want you to know what you've said to me.

You've reaffirmed for me that religion is evil. It can suspend people's logical thinking and moral sense to an almost unlimited degree. It can suspend them to such an extreme degree that they say things as disgusting as your opening post.

At least he admits it was slavery, with regards to Christians and the bible, most won't even admit that the bible supports the practice.
 

The Paul

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

I just want you to know what my take home message is on this post, Syed. I want you to know what you've said to me.

You've reaffirmed for me that religion is evil. It can suspend people's logical thinking and moral sense to an almost unlimited degree. It can suspend them to such an extreme degree that they say things as disgusting as your opening post.
lol

No, it upsets you to know that your best efforts to promote your religion have no effect other than to inspire disgust, so you're doing your best to upset me in turn.

It's about as effective as your best efforts to spread your religion: The notion of your pain is vaguely pleasing.
why cant you argue about my OP?

Because it's an embodiment of the core evil of religion from which all the other evils spring.

I could go into detail, in the same sense that I could recover a marble after my dog swallows it.

so what do you want to talk in general religions forum?

This forum is for discussion religion. Your religiously motivated beliefs fill me with loathing. That is a thing about religion that I am saying. It's in line with the purpose of this forum.
 

braces_for_impact

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allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization
Okay. Allah didn't need slavery. Got it.
Humans needed slavery. Allah allowed them to own slaves.
Allah must have wanted human slavery to exist.
Why did Allah want human slavery to exist, Syed?

allah didnt want human slavery to exist but he accepted this is the only way human will makes progress

Really now Syed? That's the ONLY way? Do you ever think anything through in any detail at all? Question for you, how do you buy a slave if there is no money? Could that method also be used to pay someone for their services? Could people just volunteer?
 

Syed

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allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization
Okay. Allah didn't need slavery. Got it.
Humans needed slavery. Allah allowed them to own slaves.
Allah must have wanted human slavery to exist.
Why did Allah want human slavery to exist, Syed?

allah didnt want human slavery to exist but he accepted this is the only way human will makes progress

Really now Syed? That's the ONLY way? Do you ever think anything through in any detail at all? Question for you, how do you buy a slave if there is no money? Could that method also be used to pay someone for their services? Could people just volunteer?
slavery started long before money invented, the early human slavery based on strong men bullying neighbor or weak people around them
 

Keith&Co.

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allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization
Okay. Allah didn't need slavery. Got it.
Humans needed slavery. Allah allowed them to own slaves.
Allah must have wanted human slavery to exist.
Why did Allah want human slavery to exist, Syed?

allah didnt want human slavery to exist but he accepted this is the only way human will makes progress

Then why didn't he do anything to stop it once Civilization was established?
When they had, you know, money?
 

Keith&Co.

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1) paul can answer that question he dont need your help
I didn't reply because i thought paul needed help.
I replied because you have a sucky record at replying to questions.
2) he said to free slave
Then why didn't he say to free slaves before slavery started?
Why didn't he just create civilization?
 

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After the domestication of horses, cattle and dogs, slavery is unnecessary.

do you mean horse , cattle and gods able to do human work?

Guided by humans, they provide horsepower. The rest humans can do for a fair salary.

Syed, why is the Quran against usury? Is it not unfair? Isn't slavery working in unfair conditions, working to give all the fruits of your work to another... curiously as in usury, where the person who takes all your earnings for his benefit.
 

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

It's an extreme waste of resources. Those keeping the slaves have to devote themselves entirely to this endeavour. They add nothing of value to the economy. The slaves have zero incentive apart from punishment, to work harder. Slavery is purely a net loss for everyone. Even the slavers. I can't think of anything that hinders progress as much as slavery.

There are theories that the fall of the Roman Empire was due to their slave economy. The barbarians had relatively more egalitarian societies, and therefore greater technological and economic progress. Eventually they overtook Rome.

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people


Early humans were cooperative hunter gatherers that did not enslave each other. Humans transitioned from hunter gatherers to farmers without the need to enslave each other. Due to the extremely financially destructive nature of slavery, it can only exist in already fairly advanced economies. So it's silly to think that slavery is required for it. Only a minor part of a population can be slaves at any one time. So most of the economy will always be a non-slave economy. We have no examples from history that any technological innovation has sprung from the slave part of any slave-economy.

so without man power human could not make progress


Sources?

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers


Today we know that the Egyptian pyramids were built by free paid labourers. The Inca Mit'a was slave labour, but it was only temporary. Like being in army.

Why only focus on the past? Isn't the Koran supposed to be a good guide today, as well? I think the Western civilisation is great, and that isn't built on slaves at all. No slave was involved in building the iPhone.

slavery responsible for civilizing human


I don't think slavery is evidence of civilisation at all. Rather the opposite.

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human


Or more likely Medieval Arabia had a slave economy. If Mohammed would have any hope in converting people he'd have to adapt his message to condone slavery. Otherwise Islam would not have caught on. Now of course when slavery is out of fashion, perhaps it's time to update the Koran?

GOD IS GREAT

Allah is certainly great at being invisible. It's almost like he doesn't even exist... almost.
 

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tell us how would roman, egypt and greek would have built their civilization without slavery?

You keep missing the point. You are arguing that your God wanted ancient civilisations to exist, so he had to let people keep slaves. But that doesn't make any sense alongside the assertion you have made elsewhere that your God is all-powerful and can do anything. If your God is supposed to be powerful and smart enough to create the universe, he's certainly powerful and smart enough to come up with a way to make civilisation develop without slavery.

The basic point is simple: if an all-powerful God exists, then whatever he wants, he gets. That's what all-powerful means. So whatever we observe to be actually the case -- like thousands of years of slavery -- must have been exactly what God wanted.
 

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so without man power human could not make progress


Sources?
So what do you think the odds are that you will get a coherent response to this challenge to his unsubstantiated slave claim? I'm kind of leaning towards inconceivable...which is why I just went for the counter play with the pagan pantheon getting credit (in post #42) for the creation of the great ancient civilizations...
 

Keith&Co.

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More of a petting zoo.
Nothing really dangerous in here, nothing really mind-blowing, and nothing really different from any petting zoo at any fair, zoo, roadside attraction, Sheep & Wool Festival, birthday party.

And it's just like every other Syed thread.
 

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More of a petting zoo.
Nothing really dangerous in here, nothing really mind-blowing, and nothing really different from any petting zoo at any fair, zoo, roadside attraction, Sheep & Wool Festival, birthday party.

And it's just like every other Syed thread.

I should probably issue a warning against derailing the roller coaster.
 

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none

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syed said:
which begs the question "is slavery progress?"
human made progress because of slavery
back to your main idea that slavery was necessary, slavery could have been theorized it didn't have to be implemented; slavery isn't necessary for progress.
 

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I saw the thread title and presumed a social science study/paper/book was going to be attached discussing the logistics of human societal advances and how slavery played a role in it.

I was disappointed but not surprised.
 

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the logistics of human societal advances and how slavery played a role in it.
I could see THAT, sure, and probably most of us do. Slavery happened during a period when civilizations rose. Syed just happily confuses 'did happen that way' with 'the only possible way that could have happened' and calls it the will of his particular superstition.
 

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the logistics of human societal advances and how slavery played a role in it.
I could see THAT, sure, and probably most of us do. Slavery happened during a period when civilizations rose. Syed just happily confuses 'did happen that way' with 'the only possible way that could have happened' and calls it the will of his particular superstition.
Well that is just RIDICULOUS!!! Paganism is clearly the key component of why and how those great civilizations rose!
 

Syed

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syed said:
which begs the question "is slavery progress?"
human made progress because of slavery
back to your main idea that slavery was necessary, slavery could have been theorized it didn't have to be implemented; slavery isn't necessary for progress.

thats a good idea , just theorized economic that will create millions of jobs
 

Syed

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I didn't reply because i thought paul needed help.
I replied because you have a sucky record at replying to questions.
2) he said to free slave
Then why didn't he say to free slaves before slavery started?
Why didn't he just create civilization?

before slavery started? i want some what you drinking
 

Syed

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allah dont NEED slavery to build a civilization but EARLY human NEEDED slavery to build a civilization
Okay. Allah didn't need slavery. Got it.
Humans needed slavery. Allah allowed them to own slaves.
Allah must have wanted human slavery to exist.
Why did Allah want human slavery to exist, Syed?

allah didnt want human slavery to exist but he accepted this is the only way human will makes progress

Then why didn't he do anything to stop it once Civilization was established?
When they had, you know, money?
he did said to free slave
 

Syed

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After the domestication of horses, cattle and dogs, slavery is unnecessary.

do you mean horse , cattle and gods able to do human work?

Guided by humans, they provide horsepower. The rest humans can do for a fair salary.

.
i already mention that early human did not invented money

- - - Updated - - -

I saw the thread title and presumed a social science study/paper/book was going to be attached discussing the logistics of human societal advances and how slavery played a role in it.

I was disappointed but not surprised.

so you believe slavery was not necessary?
 

Syed

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tell us how would roman, egypt and greek would have built their civilization without slavery?

You keep missing the point. You are arguing that your God wanted ancient civilisations to exist, so he had to let people keep slaves. But that doesn't make any sense alongside the assertion you have made elsewhere that your God is all-powerful and can do anything. If your God is supposed to be powerful and smart enough to create the universe, he's certainly powerful and smart enough to come up with a way to make civilisation develop without slavery.

The basic point is simple: if an all-powerful God exists, then whatever he wants, he gets. That's what all-powerful means. So whatever we observe to be actually the case -- like thousands of years of slavery -- must have been exactly what God wanted.

god created heaven there is no slavery but earth is for human to learn and to be civilized
 

Syed

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Early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

The principles of cooperation, reward and shared benefits works quite well.

early human were uncivilized so they dont know the principles of cooperation, reward and shared benefits
 

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syed said:
which begs the question "is slavery progress?"
human made progress because of slavery
back to your main idea that slavery was necessary, slavery could have been theorized it didn't have to be implemented; slavery isn't necessary for progress.
Syed, did you run out of steam?
I was hoping for a well thought out class A rebuttal.
 

Keith&Co.

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I'm here...
I didn't reply because i thought paul needed help.
I replied because you have a sucky record at replying to questions.
2) he said to free slave
Then why didn't he say to free slaves before slavery started?
Why didn't he just create civilization?

before slavery started? i want some what you drinking
Syed, you have drawn attention to the fact that civilization correlates with slavery.
But you haven't shown that slavery is NECESSARY to civilization.
You have also not shown that an
ALL POWERFUL GOD
could not have just created us, civilized, without any unpleasant steps in teh middle.

You couldn't handle what i'm smoking. Or you could, actually, but God'll get you for having any of my spare ribs.
 
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