Europe submits voluntarily

[maxparrish]

The Irish example is also unpersuasive because German, English, Irish, or Scot - all Christians from the same European culture.

What. The "same" European culture? What? Do you not understand how Europe works? These are all vastly different cultures that until very recently were at each other's throats. ...

Modern Europe will be lucky to make it another century.

Oh fuck off. I'm getting tired of people being oh so dramatic about all this. People have expressed this exact same sentiment for more than a thousand years, and they have been wrong for just as long. You're not even European, and have no real comprehension of what is actually happening here. But as is so often the case, the ignorant don't know how wrong they really are, and therefore can be confident when they spout their nonsense. I'd rather have another muslim immigrant move into my neighborhood than someone like yourself. Every muslim adult I've known has been nothing but polite and respectful; far more so than the average native; and if they have objectionable political views then at least they don't bother me with them.

Perhaps you can better understand many people's fear and concern IF the debate were properly grounded in reality. The concern is what happens to "us" and "them" in the present day. Telling "us" how great it will be after we are dead is irrelevant to our current well being, as the future generations "benefits" were equally irrelevant to those who suffered from the Irish and then Sicilian diaspora.

The same sentiment 'for over a thousand years' was often (usually?) right for that person's generation.

 

[Jokodo]

Those are not comparable situations - those leaders invited foreign armies, or invited a knightly caste giving them land complete with peasants to rule over, immediately establishing an alternate power base. An apples to apples comparison needs to look at examples of civilian mass immigration into the lower and middle ranks of a society. There are plenty of such examples, and they don't show what you want them to show. When "hordes" of Huguenots were admitted in Britain, the Netherlands, or the Protestant states of Germany, they didn't turn their new homes into a France 2.0. When Poland-Lithuania admitted a "flood" of Jews fleeing persecution in Western Europe, it didn't loose it's Catholic nature.

Oh, but Muslim immigrants are different, they refuse to assimilate and always kick up a fuss? Guess what - that's what they said about the Irish. So tell me more about those Catholic no-go areas all along the East Coast!

(via https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Joseph_F._Keppler_-_Uncle_Sam's_lodging-house.jpg. The caption reads: "Look here, you, everybody else is quiet and peaceable, and you're all the time a-kicking up a row!")

I don't know why you would use the Huguenots in trying to make a point. Huguenots were Protestants. That they assimilated in Protestant countries should not be surprising.

They were a different brand of Protestants from the Anglicans, Lutherans, and Calvinists predominant in the regions where the settled. Different brands of Christianity were sufficient triggers for wars that lasted 30 years and longer in those days.

(If, instead, the Huguenots had gone to Catholic Spain and prospered, that would be a relevant to your argument.)

So the examples of Irish Americans and Jews in Poland are relevant.

The Irish example is also unpersuasive because German, English, Irish, or Scot - all Christians from the same European culture.

Just before you said it would be relevant if the Huguenots (protestants) had successfully integrated in (Catholic) Spain, and now you're saying the (Catholic) Irish' successful integration in (Protestant) North America is not relevant because they're all the same anyway? Do you remember your arguments from one sentence to the next?

You can spare us your tirade about the Roman empire. I've already said why that's not a relevant comparison. If you didn't understand, you can ask for clarification.

 

[dystopian]

Perhaps you can better understand many people's fear and concern IF the debate were properly grounded in reality. The concern is what happens to "us" and "them" in the present day. Telling "us" how great it will be after we are dead is irrelevant to our current well being, as the future generations "benefits" were equally irrelevant to those who suffered from the Irish and then Sicilian diaspora.

No, you don't get it. I don't fucking care what *Americans* think about the situation: it is not your place to tell us who we can and can't let into Europe. We already have to deal with European xenophobes who don't know what they're talking about, we don't need American ones on top of that too. Who cares what your fears and concerns are? You live on the opposite side of the fucking planet and it doesn't affect you.

The same sentiment 'for over a thousand years' was often (usually?) right for that person's generation.

No, it wasn't.

 

[maxparrish]

No, you don't get it. I don't fucking care what *Americans* think about the situation: it is not your place to tell us who we can and can't let into Europe. We already have to deal with European xenophobes who don't know what they're talking about, we don't need American ones on top of that too. Who cares what your fears and concerns are? You live on the opposite side of the fucking planet and it doesn't affect you.

So much for advocates of tolerance, diversity, and multiculturalism.

 

[TSwizzle]

I heard on ABC radio this morning that the Arab Emirates have refused to take any refugees.

I'm sure they will be picking up the slack in other ways. Like funding the building of mosques in Europe.

 

[dystopian]

So much for advocates of tolerance, diversity, and multiculturalism.

Advocating tolerance, diversity, and multiculturalism doesn't mean I have to value the opinions of someone who doesn't know what the situation in Europe is actually like, doesn't understand European history except through incorrect stereotypes, and who has absolutely no personal stake in the matter whatsoever. Your voice isn't particularly important so long as you're not a European citizen and live far, far away from everything that's happening.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Then instead just take the example of the hordes of Jews that fled persecution to go to the Netherlands from all over.

The Irish example is also unpersuasive because German, English, Irish, or Scot - all Christians from the same European culture.

What. The "same" European culture? What? Do you not understand how Europe works? These are all vastly different cultures that until very recently were at each other's throats.

Their differences were ethnic, not religious.

Whether people despise immigrants because they're from the wrong ethnicity/culture or the wrong religion is rather irrelevant.

It is to be remembered that Syria, as well as all of North Africa, Egypt, and the Middle East, were once all Christian. Now that Muslims have demographically displaced them, how are Christians (or non-theists) treated? In which predominately Muslim country can a Christian build a new Church unmolested?

Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Indonesia, to name but a few.

Modern Europe will be lucky to make it another century.

Oh fuck off. I'm getting tired of people being oh so dramatic about all this. People have expressed this exact same sentiment for more than a thousand years, and they have been wrong for just as long. You're not even European, and have no real comprehension of what is actually happening here. But as is so often the case, the ignorant don't know how wrong they really are, and therefore can be confident when they spout their nonsense. I'd rather have another muslim immigrant move into my neighborhood than someone like yourself. Every muslim adult I've known has been nothing but polite and respectful; far more so than the average native; and if they have objectionable political views then at least they don't bother me with them.

Now who's the Drama Queen. The problem is the volume. The amount of people pouring in (oh sorry entering) Europe is unprecedented amounts. True though. I work for an Islamic company. I have Palestinian friends. Muslims are generally very hospitable.

 

[barbos]

So much for advocates of tolerance, diversity, and multiculturalism.

Advocating tolerance, diversity, and multiculturalism doesn't mean I have to value the opinions of someone who doesn't know what the situation in Europe is actually like, doesn't understand European history except through incorrect stereotypes, and who has absolutely no personal stake in the matter whatsoever. Your voice isn't particularly important so long as you're not a European citizen and live far, far away from everything that's happening.

Yeah, you Europeans did a great job first half of the last century.

 

[maxparrish]

Let's be honest, Europe is in the process of massive transformation...and it won't be pretty. Generations from now the "South African" pluralist model of community islands will be complete. The white population will be hybridized and color graded, divided as much by the differing racial sub-population IQs as it will be by religion and blood. It is approaching "the end of the beginning" of this process.

The Greek welfare state is broke, the European economies chronically ill, and the "One Europe" hopes fading. National histories, heroes, and cultures are under assault, the elites perplexed as to why the mass have no desire to fix bayonets under the banner of a European Commission.

NATO is a paper tiger, a collection of freeloaders without heart or head. A few, such as the Poles and Estonians, understand their precariousness and are willing to spend to defend their sovereignty the remainder disheartened or apathetic.

At one time one could walk from Cairo to Cape Town, without leaving British territory. Today they are a small island, a part of a continent of weak states being invaded by the hordes they once ruled. So they gave them their independence and their states, now these failed children of failed sub-Sahara and the Middle-Eastern states are coming to occupy mother's house.

The EU is paralyzed, unable to reject the waves, lacking the courage to say "enough, no more".

The demographics are conclusive: the native born are aging, dying. and shrinking. Even after the mass slaughter of WWII, Europe had twice the population of Africa. Today, the statistic is reversed. And millions of invading Third-World peoples are still coming, many of them from a people of deeply ingrained Muslim hostility to the West.

And while Merkel has admitted that multiculturalism has failed, she welcomes 800,000 more. More to house, more to feed, more taxation of Germans to pay for non-German well-being.

Let us hope that U.K. Independence Party and National Front in France mitigates this disaster, but I doubt they can.

 

[dystopian]

Yeah, you Europeans did a great job first half of the last century.

It's amusing how you don't seem to realize that the things you've been saying in this thread fit exactly with the sentiments of the people responsible for doing that "great" job in the first half of the 20th century.

 

[dystopian]

Now who's the Drama Queen. The problem is the volume. The amount of people pouring in (oh sorry entering) Europe is unprecedented amounts.

You are. You are still the drama queen. Have you already forgotten the posts in which it was demonstrated how the amount of people entering Europe is not at all problematic? Of course you have; reality is a real bitch to work with when it gets in the way of your personal paranoid delusions, after all. Better to just forget about the facts that are pointed out to you.

 

[atrib]

Europeans are suckers.

No, they are human beings, with empathy for their fellow human beings in distress. Yeah, that could be a difficult to understand for those who are unable to think beyond their immediate tribe.

 

[Trausti]

Europeans are suckers.

No, they are human beings, with empathy for their fellow human beings in distress. Yeah, that could be a difficult to understand for those who are unable to think beyond their immediate tribe.

What distress? They aren't fleeing persecution, they're seeking out benefits paid by the suicidal guilt overtaking Europe. 72% are men.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html

How many are even from Syria?

A Pakistani identity card in the bushes, a Bangladeshi one in a cornfield. A torn Iraqi driver's license bearing the photo of a man with a Saddam-style mustache, another one with a scarfed woman displaying a shy smile.

Documents scattered only meters from Serbia's border with Hungary provide evidence that many of the migrants flooding Europe to escape war or poverty are scrapping their true nationalities and likely assuming new ones, just as they enter the European Union.

Many of those travelers believe that using a fake document — or having none at all — gives them a better of chance of receiving asylum in Germany and other western European states. That's because the surest route to asylum is to be a refugee from war and not an economic migrant fleeing poverty. That fact has led to a huge influx of people claiming to be Syrian.

Serbian border police say that 90 percent of those arriving from Macedonia, some 3,000 a day, claim they are Syrian, although they have no documents to prove it.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/449f176b96e543d8b73428f9b0abf85c/migrants-balkans-everyone-wants-be-syrian

Being self-righteous while others take advantage of you does not make you morally superior. It makes you an idiot.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

There's always a free rider problem in any situation. Ignoring the plight of these refugees because there are some scammers amongst them is about as sensible as wanting to discontinue foodstamps for the needy population as a whole because of a few welfare queens with fake Social Security cards getting a few hundred extra bucks a month.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Now who's the Drama Queen. The problem is the volume. The amount of people pouring in (oh sorry entering) Europe is unprecedented amounts.

You are. You are still the drama queen. Have you already forgotten the posts in which it was demonstrated how the amount of people entering Europe is not at all problematic? Of course you have; reality is a real bitch to work with when it gets in the way of your personal paranoid delusions, after all. Better to just forget about the facts that are pointed out to you.

Oh no you are. I shall throw my red nail polish all over your latest drag outfit.. The vast majority of people coming into Europe are economic migrants. There are very few refugees. The countries like Somalia, Eritrea, Nigeria, Mali and Pakistan may not be that pleasant to live in but they do not qualify for asylum. They pay money to Criminals to ship them over. Each time people die, Europe is to blame. How is Italy going to sustain the migrants when it has 12% unemployment and its debt alone is more than one year's GDP?

Perhaps Italy can print more money to give to the new people coming over.

- - - Updated - - -

Europeans are suckers.

No, they are human beings, with empathy for their fellow human beings in distress. Yeah, that could be a difficult to understand for those who are unable to think beyond their immediate tribe.

Nice is one thing but where is the money coming from?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'd just like to note that Canada is doing it's part to help out in this crisis.

As of yesterday, we've completed processing the visa applications of nine Syrian refugees and we should be flying them out of Europe and over here any day now.

You're welcome.

 

[dystopian]

Oh no you are.

Do you even understand the term? You've done nothing but fearmongering, practically describing the situation as if it were the end of the world. Whereas all I've done is try and get you to get some relative perspective. How on earth does that qualify *me* as the dramaqueen here?

The vast majority of people coming into Europe are economic migrants. There are very few refugees.

Why are you once again bringing up economic migrants when we're talking about the refugee issue? We've been over this; these are two separate issues.

And who cares if most people coming into Europe are economic migrants? I don't see a problem with that.

The countries like Somalia, Eritrea, Nigeria, Mali and Pakistan may not be that pleasant to live in but they do not qualify for asylum.

Holy shit dude, really? You clearly don't know the first thing about the situation in any of the countries you mentioned if you so broadly declare that those fleeing some of these countries do not qualify for asylum status.

Somalia was in a state of war with Ethiopia just a few years ago, and is *still* in a state of civil war today.

Eritrea is run by a flat out insane regime. Everyone in Eritrea (men and women both) is forced into the military; the average Eritrean is in the military from 18 to 55, army officers have the legal right to rape subordinate females, freedom of movement extremely limited, and punishments so severe that it is considered a harsher regime than n-korea. Eritreans refugees are pretty universally seen as *refugees*, and the overwhelming majority are granted full asylum status wherever they flee to.

Nigeria is experiencing large-scale sectarian violence in its north-east, with Boko Haram having killed and mutilated tens of thousands; and are thus also effectively in a state of civil war.

Mali is *also* experiencing a civil war between the government on one side, Tuareg seperatists on another, and Islamists on another. There is currently an ICC investigation into warcrimes; as several sides are claimed to have engaged in kidnapping, gang rapes, executions, the use of child soldiers, and ethnic targeting.

So of the five countries you mentioned, 3 are experiencing a civil war and one is a human rights hell-hole. The only one that actually fits with what you're saying is Pakistan.

But, like with all your other claims that have been refuted, you will ofcourse deny or ignore everything again.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're not rebutting me.

What you are missing is that the events that radicalized them may not have existed in the first place and may not have happened as originally described.

Consider the flap over the cartoons--the Islamists tried it once and got nowhere. They tried it again using their own versions of the cartoons, not the real ones. The outrage over the cartoons was really an outrage over cartoons drawn by the Islamists, not by what was in that newspaper.

When you have things like Abu Graib you don't really need anything else to see some become radicalized.

They do manufacture plenty of stuff--their photoshops come to light on occasion. They wouldn't be doing that if reality was enough.

 

[Jokodo]

I'd just like to note that Canada is doing it's part to help out in this crisis.

As of yesterday, we've completed processing the visa applications of nine Syrian refugees and we should be flying them out of Europe and over here any day now.

You're welcome.

Wow, nine?

I live within one mile from a train station that processed 4,500 refugees on their way from Hungary to Germany today. Under the (very low) estimate that 20% of them are Syrians, you've admitted 1% of one day's worth of Syrian refugees going through Vienna Western Station. Congratulations.

 

[bilby]

Nice is one thing but where is the money coming from?

From the same place ALL money comes from - People doing useful work.

If you think that having more people is necessarily going to harm this process of wealth generation, then you are fucking crazy.

Countries that received large numbers of migrants in the past have tended to undergo economic booms as a result.

The cost of assimilating a refugee (or an 'economic migrant' for that matter) to the point where they become a net contributor to the wealth of the nation, is FAR lower than the cost of getting a newborn baby to the same point.

Migrants are (on average, and over the medium to long term) far less of a drain on national wealth than native born citizens.

The short term costs are a bloody good investment.