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How is pointing out gross errors of fact even remotely able to be characterised as "clutching at straws"?

You are wrong on pretty much every factual point you have attempted in this thread. Clearly and demonstrably wrong. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you; people have provided evidence to show where and how you are wrong. Yet you continue to make utterly false claims that have no bearing in reality; and now you are making meta-errors - you are saying demonstrably false things about the nature of the arguments used to rebut your nonsense.

Right now, your only smart move would be to shut up; every post you make simply adds to the vast pile of evidence in this thread that you don't care about the truth, and only care about pushing your unevidenced and fallacious opinions.

I am just grateful that I am not on the same side of this debate as you; those who agree with your conclusions must cringe when you post yet another easily refuted claim, that serves only to weaken your argument.
Refute my claims that islam has grown not by people voluntarily converting to the death cult, but by the sword?
That in Saudi Arabia where this death cult originated from, hasn't got one xtian, Jew, or any other kafir left. That Egypt and most of North Africa, the Middle East, Iraq, and any other moslem majority country except Saudi Arabia where Kafirs either had to convert to islam or suffer the consequences, are either close to extinction or already dead. Islam has no tolerance of any other religion except it's own death cult. Even then, you have Sunni fighting Shia muslims.

Wikipedia said:
There are believed to be over 1.5 million Christians living in the country.

The bored with this now. You make the claims; YOU have the burden of proving them. Disproving them is incredibly easy, but it's not my job to do your fucking homework. I've proven you to be factually wrong on far more than enough occasions that it is no longer worthwhile to bother. Even if one percent of what you said was correct, the other 99% says that no sane person should agree with you - any randomly selected assertion from you in this thread is more likely wrong than right.

Presenting so many false claims that others get bored with rebutting them is a pathetic tactic that is beloved of those with no real basis for their position; it is disappointing, but not surprising, that you chose this tack.

Stop making bald assertions, and start presenting EVIDENCE. Nobody who has followed the thread this far has any reason to believe you without it. You have exhausted any presumption of honesty or accuracy; You have made it abundantly clear that your statements on this subject are completely untrustworthy.

Present evidence, or shut up.
 
No, just optimism.

I explained why it happened in the past; I assume that when we know why something bad happened in the past, we might take steps to prevent it from happening in the future. Without chucking the baby out with the bath water.

If lots of single vehicle crashes occur on a particular section of road, and it is known that this is due to people not being aware of a hazard at that spot, closing the road entirely is a poor solution. Once the cause is known, you can either remove the hazard, or add a warning sign; it is stupid and unnecessary to close the road - even if that would achieve the immediate goal of eliminating the crashes.
I see. So which are you saying?

Are you saying (a) that if the European countries importing large numbers of Muslims put up "Caution: Road Hazard Ahead"-like signs reading "Caution: Don't be racist against Muslims", this will cause the locals to stop discriminating against Muslims, and that will cause Muslim children to grow up feeling accepted, which will immunize them against the Islamist radicals trying to persuade children to become Islamist radicals?

Or are you saying (b) that when you wrote "That's some seriously presumptuous paranoia", what you meant to say was "That's some seriously fact-based pessimism."?

[/sarcasm]

The circumstance that you are an incurable optimist is not a particularly confidence-inspiring qualification for being a good judge of whether another person is a paranoid or merely a realist.

You do this over and over again. First you convince yourself of something counterintuitive. Then you post an argument for it that is unbelievably lame. Then you take it as a premise that your argument is not only correct but is so intuitively obviously correct that explaining why someone else doesn't agree with you is a psychological puzzle to be solved. And from that premise you derive a conclusion that's an ad hominem attack on people who disagree with you.

I'm not saying either of the things you present in your false dichotomy.

I do find it faintly amusing that you are able to rationalise your inability to follow my arguments as ad hominem attacks by me on you.
 
The Islamists have no hope of getting what they want voted in.

I'm glad we agree on that. This also brings some necessary perspective to how we should perceive the threat of Islam in Europe: Europe is not about to be Islamised, not any time soon.

Saying it won't be voted in doesn't mean they won't try to impose it by force.
 
I'm not saying either of the things you present in your false dichotomy.
:facepalm:
Exactly which part of "[/sarcasm]" didn't you understand? The dichotomy I presented was the two alternative ways your paranoia claim could theoretically have been justified. Of course you are not saying either. Duh! That was my point. The fact that you are not saying either means your accusation was not justified.

I do find it faintly amusing that you are able to rationalise your inability to follow my arguments as ad hominem attacks by me on you.
:facepalm:
Exactly where do you imagine you saw a claim of an ad hominem attack by you on me? You made an ad hominem attack on JayJay. You accused him of paranoia. Your grounds were that he's afraid people who haven't been born yet will grow up to behave in ways that anybody can foresee, at least anybody who doesn't share your peculiar optimism that the environment that currently socializes young European Muslims in the way you yourself described is going to stop doing that sometime soon. That was not a reasonable thing for you to do.
 
I'm glad we agree on that. This also brings some necessary perspective to how we should perceive the threat of Islam in Europe: Europe is not about to be Islamised, not any time soon.

Saying it won't be voted in doesn't mean they won't try to impose it by force.

Are you now afraid of a Muslim coup d'etat? This is becoming more and more outlandish.
 
Sounds a lot like the old "guns don't kill people, people do" argument. Just replace "guns" with "religion". Doesn't convince me that religion isn't a huge part of the problem though.

Sounds like somebody can't make a distinction between a lifeless object and humans being used by other humans.
Religion is a tool, same as a gun. If gun control is a viable solution to reducing gun violence, then "religion control" should be a viable solution to reduce religious violence.
 
Sounds like somebody can't make a distinction between a lifeless object and humans being used by other humans.
Religion is a tool, same as a gun. If gun control is a viable solution to reducing gun violence, then "religion control" should be a viable solution to reduce religious violence.

People who have been indoctrinated to religion can be used as tools, but they act as free agents.

You can't ask the gun to go blow itself up, but you can ask the fool lost in religious delusion.
 
This is pleasant:


and I like this comment:
Clearly, these are the people we should let run our media and academic institutions, forming hundreds of organizations to promote the mass non-white invasion of the West and destroying anyone who fights back as a "racist," while they build walls and drop white phosphorus on people. I'm so glad they control our Congress and the mind of every "anti-racist."
 
Refute my claims that islam has grown not by people voluntarily converting to the death cult, but by the sword?
That in Saudi Arabia where this death cult originated from, hasn't got one xtian, Jew, or any other kafir left. That Egypt and most of North Africa, the Middle East, Iraq, and any other moslem majority country except Saudi Arabia where Kafirs either had to convert to islam or suffer the consequences, are either close to extinction or already dead. Islam has no tolerance of any other religion except it's own death cult. Even then, you have Sunni fighting Shia muslims.

Wikipedia said:
There are believed to be over 1.5 million Christians living in the country.

The bored with this now. You make the claims; YOU have the burden of proving them. Disproving them is incredibly easy, but it's not my job to do your fucking homework. I've proven you to be factually wrong on far more than enough occasions that it is no longer worthwhile to bother. Even if one percent of what you said was correct, the other 99% says that no sane person should agree with you - any randomly selected assertion from you in this thread is more likely wrong than right.

Presenting so many false claims that others get bored with rebutting them is a pathetic tactic that is beloved of those with no real basis for their position; it is disappointing, but not surprising, that you chose this tack.

Stop making bald assertions, and start presenting EVIDENCE. Nobody who has followed the thread this far has any reason to believe you without it. You have exhausted any presumption of honesty or accuracy; You have made it abundantly clear that your statements on this subject are completely untrustworthy.

Present evidence, or shut up.
Oh, okay. I'm not correct in asserting there are fuck all christians left in Saudi Arabia, around 5% in Turkey, a once xtian country, millions of coptic xtians and other religions still living in Egypt, North Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. That islam is not a supreme mono-cultural political system. That it's a tolerant peaceful religion, something like the Jesus People once were. If that's so, WTF happened to the Buddhist culture of Afghanistan, the Berber culture of North Africa, the xtian culture of iraq, the Zoroastrian culture of of Iran? Etc etc! I know, it was the wicked corrupted regimes of the West who annihilated them!!!
 
Oh, okay. I'm not correct in asserting there are fuck all christians left in Saudi Arabia, around 5% in Turkey, a once xtian country, millions of coptic xtians and other religions still living in Egypt, North Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. That islam is not a supreme mono-cultural political system. That it's a tolerant peaceful religion, something like the Jesus People once were. If that's so, WTF happened to the Buddhist culture of Afghanistan, the Berber culture of North Africa, the xtian culture of iraq, the Zoroastrian culture of of Iran? Etc etc! I know, it was the wicked corrupted regimes of the West who annihilated them!!!

There are in fact millions of Copts living in Egypt. Bilby is right, you say stuff without basic fact checking.
 
Oh, okay. I'm not correct in asserting there are fuck all christians left in Saudi Arabia, around 5% in Turkey, a once xtian country, millions of coptic xtians and other religions still living in Egypt, North Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. That islam is not a supreme mono-cultural political system. That it's a tolerant peaceful religion, something like the Jesus People once were. If that's so, WTF happened to the Buddhist culture of Afghanistan, the Berber culture of North Africa, the xtian culture of iraq, the Zoroastrian culture of of Iran? Etc etc! I know, it was the wicked corrupted regimes of the West who annihilated them!!!

There are in fact millions of Copts living in Egypt. Bilby is right, you say stuff without basic fact checking.
The few remaining Coptics are persecuted and killed by the islamics daily. There was a time when there were no moslems anywhere near North Africa. Islam was founded in What is Saudi Arabia by the bloodthirsty, pedophilic war lord terrorist Mohammad around 1400 years ago.
 
Oh, okay. I'm not correct in asserting there are fuck all christians left in Saudi Arabia, around 5% in Turkey, a once xtian country, millions of coptic xtians and other religions still living in Egypt, North Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. That islam is not a supreme mono-cultural political system. That it's a tolerant peaceful religion, something like the Jesus People once were. If that's so, WTF happened to the Buddhist culture of Afghanistan, the Berber culture of North Africa, the xtian culture of iraq, the Zoroastrian culture of of Iran? Etc etc! I know, it was the wicked corrupted regimes of the West who annihilated them!!!

Jesus, how ignorant is it possible to get. There is no religion in history that has used genocide so efficiently and systematically as Christianity. What do you think the Inquisition was about? The Crusades? Nazism and the holocaust? Studying history we learn that there are political reasons for this rather than teachings in the Bible. But the truth is the truth. It did happen. It's hard to find a religion that has been more intolerant than Christianity. This too has historical explanations. When kings try to build empires that cross several religions they have to become tolerant to keep the empire together. And it's not faux toleration. It's real toleration. And they have to enforce the toleration with the army. For geographic reasons European kings have had difficulties building empires. So this evolution of ideas hasn't taken place until really very recently. Only in the last couple of hundred years did Christian nations start building empires. They weren't tolerant at all. No shit western imperialism fell apart about as rapidly as it started. Caliphs managed to keep together multi-faith Caliphates for over a thousand years with little ethnic friction. Islam has a way better track record than Christian rulers has.

It seems just hard for you to grasp the concept of people freely converting to religions. People haven't converted to Islam through mass conversions. Islamic countries have never forced non-muslims to convert. Historically that hasn't happened. It's also forbidden in the Quran. You might argue that they've forced people to convert indirectly. Like having higher taxes for non-Muslims making it financially beneficial to convert. But that's not the same thing as forcing people. Whatever the dominant religion is people have a tendency to convert to it. It's human nature. We often confuse being powerful with being correct.

As for the specifics. Zoroastrianism is alive and well in Iran. Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism are officially recognized by the government, and have reserved seats in the Iranian Parliament. The Iranian government has gone out of their way to prevent persecution of those groups. To make sure they have a say in how Iran is run they get more say than their actual numbers. They have disproportionally more power in Iran than if all Iranian's votes were worth as much. Zoroastrians aren't persecuted in Iran.

The persecution of Copts in Egypt is a very modern development. If I know my history correctly it has it's roots in Nasser's take-over in the 1950'ies and socialism. Nasser made an effort to include Copts into the governement. This had historically been a group that kept mostly to themselves in a separate but equal kind of arrangement. Then the "Islamic awakening" happened in Egypt which was a militant form of Islam with a target to take down the socialist regime. Copts came to be seen (by the Muslims) as complicit and part of the secular and socialist government. Which doesn't really have anything to do with religion at all. It's just politics. Egypt still has this problem. Islam in Egypt is seen as the main force against oppression. Too bad that same political party is also opposed to democracy. They have a view of democracy more in line with Iran than Montesquieu which arguably isn't democracy at all.
 
There are in fact millions of Copts living in Egypt. Bilby is right, you say stuff without basic fact checking.
The few remaining Coptics are persecuted and killed by the islamics daily.

No one has any reason to believe you when you say this. Every post you have made that has been fact checked has been WRONG.

There was a time when there were no moslems anywhere near North Africa. Islam was founded in What is Saudi Arabia by the bloodthirsty, pedophilic war lord terrorist Mohammad around 1400 years ago.

There was a time when there were no Christians anywhere near North Africa. There was a time when there were no Jews anywhere near the Middle East. All existing religions started somewhere, at some time, and spread from there. So fucking what?
 
Oh, okay. I'm not correct in asserting there are fuck all christians left in Saudi Arabia, around 5% in Turkey, a once xtian country, millions of coptic xtians and other religions still living in Egypt, North Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. That islam is not a supreme mono-cultural political system. That it's a tolerant peaceful religion, something like the Jesus People once were. If that's so, WTF happened to the Buddhist culture of Afghanistan, the Berber culture of North Africa, the xtian culture of iraq, the Zoroastrian culture of of Iran? Etc etc! I know, it was the wicked corrupted regimes of the West who annihilated them!!!

Jesus, how ignorant is it possible to get. There is no religion in history that has used genocide so efficiently and systematically as Christianity. What do you think the Inquisition was about? The Crusades? Nazism and the holocaust? Studying history we learn that there are political reasons for this rather than teachings in the Bible. But the truth is the truth. It did happen. It's hard to find a religion that has been more intolerant than Christianity. This too has historical explanations. When kings try to build empires that cross several religions they have to become tolerant to keep the empire together. And it's not faux toleration. It's real toleration. And they have to enforce the toleration with the army. For geographic reasons European kings have had difficulties building empires. So this evolution of ideas hasn't taken place until really very recently. Only in the last couple of hundred years did Christian nations start building empires. They weren't tolerant at all. No shit western imperialism fell apart about as rapidly as it started. Caliphs managed to keep together multi-faith Caliphates for over a thousand years with little ethnic friction. Islam has a way better track record than Christian rulers has.

It seems just hard for you to grasp the concept of people freely converting to religions. People haven't converted to Islam through mass conversions. Islamic countries have never forced non-muslims to convert. Historically that hasn't happened. It's also forbidden in the Quran. You might argue that they've forced people to convert indirectly. Like having higher taxes for non-Muslims making it financially beneficial to convert. But that's not the same thing as forcing people. Whatever the dominant religion is people have a tendency to convert to it. It's human nature. We often confuse being powerful with being correct.

As for the specifics. Zoroastrianism is alive and well in Iran. Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism are officially recognized by the government, and have reserved seats in the Iranian Parliament. The Iranian government has gone out of their way to prevent persecution of those groups. To make sure they have a say in how Iran is run they get more say than their actual numbers. They have disproportionally more power in Iran than if all Iranian's votes were worth as much. Zoroastrians aren't persecuted in Iran.

The persecution of Copts in Egypt is a very modern development. If I know my history correctly it has it's roots in Nasser's take-over in the 1950'ies and socialism. Nasser made an effort to include Copts into the governement. This had historically been a group that kept mostly to themselves in a separate but equal kind of arrangement. Then the "Islamic awakening" happened in Egypt which was a militant form of Islam with a target to take down the socialist regime. Copts came to be seen (by the Muslims) as complicit and part of the secular and socialist government. Which doesn't really have anything to do with religion at all. It's just politics. Egypt still has this problem. Islam in Egypt is seen as the main force against oppression. Too bad that same political party is also opposed to democracy. They have a view of democracy more in line with Iran than Montesquieu which arguably isn't democracy at all.

If we look at Christianity a few hundred years ago what you say is correct Iran as you say has MPs from minorities, though the Jewish community has slowly been declining.
As Europe's route to Islam has been accelerated by unprecedented amounts pouring into Europe, we can hope that once we are Islamic (possibly in 100 years) the predominant religion treats minorities as we do today (or even better).
 
Jesus, how ignorant is it possible to get. There is no religion in history that has used genocide so efficiently and systematically as Christianity. What do you think the Inquisition was about? The Crusades? Nazism and the holocaust? Studying history we learn that there are political reasons for this rather than teachings in the Bible. But the truth is the truth. It did happen. It's hard to find a religion that has been more intolerant than Christianity. This too has historical explanations. When kings try to build empires that cross several religions they have to become tolerant to keep the empire together. And it's not faux toleration. It's real toleration. And they have to enforce the toleration with the army. For geographic reasons European kings have had difficulties building empires. So this evolution of ideas hasn't taken place until really very recently. Only in the last couple of hundred years did Christian nations start building empires. They weren't tolerant at all. No shit western imperialism fell apart about as rapidly as it started. Caliphs managed to keep together multi-faith Caliphates for over a thousand years with little ethnic friction. Islam has a way better track record than Christian rulers has.

It seems just hard for you to grasp the concept of people freely converting to religions. People haven't converted to Islam through mass conversions. Islamic countries have never forced non-muslims to convert. Historically that hasn't happened. It's also forbidden in the Quran. You might argue that they've forced people to convert indirectly. Like having higher taxes for non-Muslims making it financially beneficial to convert. But that's not the same thing as forcing people. Whatever the dominant religion is people have a tendency to convert to it. It's human nature. We often confuse being powerful with being correct.

As for the specifics. Zoroastrianism is alive and well in Iran. Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism are officially recognized by the government, and have reserved seats in the Iranian Parliament. The Iranian government has gone out of their way to prevent persecution of those groups. To make sure they have a say in how Iran is run they get more say than their actual numbers. They have disproportionally more power in Iran than if all Iranian's votes were worth as much. Zoroastrians aren't persecuted in Iran.

The persecution of Copts in Egypt is a very modern development. If I know my history correctly it has it's roots in Nasser's take-over in the 1950'ies and socialism. Nasser made an effort to include Copts into the governement. This had historically been a group that kept mostly to themselves in a separate but equal kind of arrangement. Then the "Islamic awakening" happened in Egypt which was a militant form of Islam with a target to take down the socialist regime. Copts came to be seen (by the Muslims) as complicit and part of the secular and socialist government. Which doesn't really have anything to do with religion at all. It's just politics. Egypt still has this problem. Islam in Egypt is seen as the main force against oppression. Too bad that same political party is also opposed to democracy. They have a view of democracy more in line with Iran than Montesquieu which arguably isn't democracy at all.

If we look at Christianity a few hundred years ago what you say is correct Iran as you say has MPs from minorities, though the Jewish community has slowly been declining.
As Europe's route to Islam has been accelerated by unprecedented amounts pouring into Europe, we can hope that once we are Islamic (possibly in 100 years) the predominant religion treats minorities as we do today (or even better).

In my crystal ball the predominant religion in Europe is atheism. Religion is rapidly dying in these parts. Or I should say theism. In Europe old religion is rapidly being replaced by vacuous new age/self-help type religion. No threat to anyone and no political capacity to do shit. So the fact that somebody says they're Christian or Muslim today doesn't really say much of what they believe or how they practice religion.

Even if we look in religious strong-holds like Ireland and Poland. It's easy to see how religious faith has filled an important social role in those countries. The Catholic church helped democratise Poland. But that memory will fade. Once the last Poles of that first democratic election dies so will Catholicism. Well... that's my crystal ball anyway. And this will happen a lot faster than what most people think.

It will die because nobody needs it any more. The evidence is all around us
 
As Europe's route to Islam has been accelerated by unprecedented amounts pouring into Europe, we can hope that once we are Islamic (possibly in 100 years) the predominant religion treats minorities as we do today (or even better).

The 'amounts pouring into Europe' (what hyperbole!) is not unprecedented at all. For hundreds of years practically all of Southeast Europe was Muslim, part of the Ottoman Empire.

There is no reason for anyone to believe your long term predictions. You are just making them up. I bothered to google about this, and the few serious studies that dare to go out long term say this:

A Pew Research Center study, published in January 2011, forecasted an increase of Muslims in European population from 6% in 2010 to 8% in 2030. The study also predicted that Muslim fertility rate in Europe would drop from 2.2 in 2010 to 2.0 in 2030. On the other hand, the non-Muslim fertility rate in Europe would increase from 1.5 in 2010 to 1.6 in 2030. A Pew study published in 2015 projected that in 2050 Muslims will make up 10.2% of Europe's population.

Philip Jenkins of Penn State University estimates that by 2100, Muslims will compose about 25% of Europe's population. Jenkins states this figure does not take account divergent birthrates amongst Europe's immigrant Christians. Other analysts are skeptical about the accuracy of the claimed Muslim population growth, stating that because many European countries do not ask a person's religion on official forms or in censuses, it has been difficult to obtain accurate estimates, and arguing that there has been a decrease in Muslim fertility rates in Morocco, the Netherlands and Turkey.
Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe#Current_population_and_its_perception

It will be obvious to thinking people that such projections are extremely speculative. Even so, they don't come anywhere near your scenario. Time to let that go, I would think.
 
Jesus, how ignorant is it possible to get.
Let's find out.

People haven't converted to Islam through mass conversions. Islamic countries have never forced non-muslims to convert. Historically that hasn't happened.
Yes, they have. Yes, they have. Yes, it has.

As for the specifics. Zoroastrianism is alive and well in Iran. Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism are officially recognized by the government, and have reserved seats in the Iranian Parliament. The Iranian government has gone out of their way to prevent persecution of those groups. To make sure they have a say in how Iran is run they get more say than their actual numbers. They have disproportionally more power in Iran than if all Iranian's votes were worth as much. Zoroastrians aren't persecuted in Iran.
But that's a recent development, begun by the late Shah's father. For the previous 400 years...

Safavid dynasty
Shiite Safavid dynasty destroyed what was once a vibrant community of Zoroastrians, adherents of the pre-Islam religion of Iran. As per the official policy, Safavids wanted everyone to convert to the Shia sect of Islam and killed hundreds of thousands of Sunnis, Zoroastrians and other minorities when they refused to follow these orders.

Majority of Zoroastrians also left for India though about 20% remained; most of whom had to migrate in the late 19th century as Qajar dynasty imposed greater restrictions on them (reference needed).

Qajar dynasty

During the Qajar Dynasty, religious persecution of the Zoroastrians was rampant. Due to the increasing contacts with influential Parsi philanthropists such as Maneckji Limji Hataria, many Zoroastrians left Iran for India. There, they formed the second major Indian Zoroastrian community known as the Iranis.​

Yes, it is good that Iran belatedly started being decent to Zoroastrians. It would be better if it weren't merely because their persecutions are currently focused on Baha'is.

Then the "Islamic awakening" happened in Egypt which was a militant form of Islam with a target to take down the socialist regime. Copts came to be seen (by the Muslims) as complicit and part of the secular and socialist government. Which doesn't really have anything to do with religion at all. It's just politics.
That's a bloody unfalsifiability engine! We see this pattern over and over -- religious minorities supporting authoritarian governments, and when those governments are overthrown the minorities are persecuted, and religion apologists label the persecution "political", revenge for siding with the evil oppressor, as though who people side with were decided in a vacuum. Why the devil do you think we keep seeing religious minorities supporting authoritarian governments? It's because the authoritarian governments had been the only thing protecting them from religious persecution by the bigoted masses. Of course it has "anything to do with religion at all"! :banghead:
 
This is pleasant:


and I like this comment:
Clearly, these are the people we should let run our media and academic institutions, forming hundreds of organizations to promote the mass non-white invasion of the West and destroying anyone who fights back as a "racist," while they build walls and drop white phosphorus on people. I'm so glad they control our Congress and the mind of every "anti-racist."


1) The IDF is bringing charges against the guy.

2) His actions actually weren't that far out of line--the issue was whether the guy had a suicide vest. The IDF unfortunately has to consider wounded enemies to still be a threat until the bomb guys pronounce them clean.
 
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