Europe submits voluntarily

[Warpoet]

Free speech, why not.

It's a privately owned website. Nobody is entitled to post here. The rules prohibit hate and fearmongering, which is all this thread has devolved into.

And in angelo's case, he's just generally a fucking moron who comes here for the sole purpose of spreading hatred against Muslims. He's quite literally been proven wrong about every god damn thing he's said and should be removed from the forum on general principle. Several others in the thread aren't far behind him.

 

[Warpoet]

what a wimp you are WARpoet...

There should be NO political website off limits, even stormfront or www.newnation.org

So we should allow a 400 page thread filled with links to websites talking about black savages marauding around raping women and children and destroying civilization?

And why is hate speech suddenly acceptable if it's from a political website? What defines a "political" website anyway? If we have no limits on what can be posted here, I guess pedophiles ought to be allowed to come here and post links to NAMBLA's website arguing that it should be legal to fuck little kids?

No?

Then shut the fuck up.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Free speech, why not.

It's a privately owned website. Nobody is entitled to post here. The rules prohibit hate and fearmongering, which is all this thread has devolved into.

And in angelo's case, he's just generally a fucking moron who comes here for the sole purpose of spreading hatred against Muslims. He's quite literally been proven wrong about every god damn thing he's said and should be removed from the forum on general principle. Several others in the thread aren't far behind him.

Just keep the refutations going. My own view is simply the volume of those who are coming in and a lack of security checks. This has brought some problems. In the same way send in 1 million British men between 18 and 45 to any country in Europe and for sure there will be quite a few bar fights.

 

[whichphilosophy]

what a wimp you are WARpoet...

There should be NO political website off limits, even stormfront or www.newnation.org

So we should allow a 400 page thread filled with links to websites talking about black savages marauding around raping women and children and destroying civilization?

And why is hate speech suddenly acceptable if it's from a political website? What defines a "political" website anyway? If we have no limits on what can be posted here, I guess pedophiles ought to be allowed to come here and post links to NAMBLA's website arguing that it should be legal to fuck little kids?

No?

Then shut the fuck up.

I checked this website which of course has nothing to do with this thread. If someone is posting something it is better that they quote something specific and try and analyse the evidence for that particular one. Opinion polls are difficult to rely on because it depends on how the question was asked and should be compared to how other groups answered.

 

[Warpoet]

Just keep the refutations going.

The refutations have been made, over and over and over and over. There are legitimate concerns to be raised about large -scale immigration of any kind, but you won't find many of them in this thread. It's almost entirely made up of chicken little bullshit from idiots who have built a Muslim boogeyman in their heads and are impervious to logic. bilby, Zoidberg and a few others have been incredibly patient in dealing with this crap for hundreds of pages.

And it's scarcely made a dent. The same morons keep posting the same shit, citing the same biased or outright bigoted sources, and then caterwauling about how Western civilization is doomed and we're all going to die. The thread is contributing nothing in the way of intelligent or meaningful discourse on the issue of immigration. It's just a sounding board for bigoted cunts to shout at, and should have been closed long, long ago.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Germany's answer to the question of "how do we integrate teh muslims?" is to pass a law and make them integrate;

“We will have a German national law on integration. This is the first time this has happened in post-war Germany,” Mrs Merkel told a press conference in Berlin. “We will take a series of measures which make it clear it is a duty to integrate.”

Telegraph

Oh dear, this is not going to end well.

Germany has a problem with an ability to live off welfare indefinitely. There's a reason Berlin clubs are open and full all week long 24/7. Germany now has a sub-culture of people who aren't even trying to find work. Due to their Nazi and Communist legacy Germans are touchy about the state forcing people to do anything. All they're doing is forcing immigrants to behave in a way Europeans in any other country have to do anyway. Obviously the German government should force all Germans to do the same. But this would be political suicide. Just going after the immigrants is a much easier target.

This law wouldn't have to be passed in Sweden for example. This rule applies to everybody, regardless if you're immigrant or not.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Free speech, why not.

It's a privately owned website. Nobody is entitled to post here. The rules prohibit hate and fearmongering, which is all this thread has devolved into.

And in angelo's case, he's just generally a fucking moron who comes here for the sole purpose of spreading hatred against Muslims. He's quite literally been proven wrong about every god damn thing he's said and should be removed from the forum on general principle. Several others in the thread aren't far behind him.

Lol, how could a thread devolve any further into fear mongering than the OP... or just the thread title?

 

[DrZoidberg]

what a wimp you are WARpoet...

There should be NO political website off limits, even stormfront or www.newnation.org

So we should allow a 400 page thread filled with links to websites talking about black savages marauding around raping women and children and destroying civilization?

And why is hate speech suddenly acceptable if it's from a political website? What defines a "political" website anyway? If we have no limits on what can be posted here, I guess pedophiles ought to be allowed to come here and post links to NAMBLA's website arguing that it should be legal to fuck little kids?

No?

Then shut the fuck up.

I've thought about that. This is (arguably) a pro-atheism site. This will attract an anti-Islam crowd. It's the domain. This is not my site, so it's not my call, but I don't think anti-Islam hate speech is necessarily out of order here. Every family will have it's embarrassing cousin. This is ours. Islamic criticism is where liberal sceptics meet right-wing racists in an uneasy alliance.

I do disagree with what Angelo (the the rest of the Islamophobe's) have been saying. But disagreeing with something is a world apart from banning it. Filth doesn't disappear because we paint over it. This is part of the sceptics/atheist world and I want to keep it visible. Not all of us are pink fluffy and cuddly. I think it should be allowed. But I won't stop arguing against it.

I do think hating Islam to the degree that Angelo does make it difficult to have a reasonable discussion about it. Islam does have genuine problems worth discussing.

 

[KeepTalking]

How does a German law dating back to formation of the German Empire have anything to do with Sharia?

The point is that the government is kowtowing to Islam in using an archaic law to prosecute him.

No, the point is that it is not a Sharia law, it is a German law that has been in existence for over a century, so it is not a case of Sharia law being instituted in Germany.

It is as simple as Erdogan saying to Merkel "I notice that you Germans have this law that makes it illegal for your citizens to insult foreign heads of state. I am a foreign head of state, and this German citizen insulted me. Perhaps you should enforce your law."

Of course, Merkel's response was not even "Sure, whatever you say Mr. Erdogan, we will prosecute our citizen to the fullest extent of the law." Rather, she said "In a state under the rule of law, it is not a matter for the government but rather for state prosecutors and courts to weigh personal rights issues and other concerns affecting press and artistic freedom."

Merkel also committed to have the law repealed by 2018, which is basically a big, diplomatic "fuck you" to Erdogan.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Just keep the refutations going.

The refutations have been made, over and over and over and over. There are legitimate concerns to be raised about large -scale immigration of any kind, but you won't find many of them in this thread. It's almost entirely made up of chicken little bullshit from idiots who have built a Muslim boogeyman in their heads and are impervious to logic. bilby, Zoidberg and a few others have been incredibly patient in dealing with this crap for hundreds of pages.

And it's scarcely made a dent. The same morons keep posting the same shit, citing the same biased or outright bigoted sources, and then caterwauling about how Western civilization is doomed and we're all going to die. The thread is contributing nothing in the way of intelligent or meaningful discourse on the issue of immigration. It's just a sounding board for bigoted cunts to shout at, and should have been closed long, long ago.

If your concern is about the numbers, then that is what I have raised as the real concern. We don't have the resources though asylum seekers must be given consideration, but not economic migrants. As I said before take one million British males between 18 and 45 and send them to Germany. It may boost the bar trade but I am sure there will be a lot of drunken brawls vandalism and hooliganism. At the same time I think it is likely that Europe will become an Islamic continent within 100 years, as the numbers continue to arrive. However Christianity in Europe evolved with the concepts of the people. It may happen with Islam. It's also a good media for drum thumping.
However where free speech is concerned, we know it is being exercised when things that annoy many are being freely said. Of course we should talk about preventing incitement.

 

[Warpoet]

If your concern is about the numbers, then that is what I have raised as the real concern. We don't have the resources though asylum seekers must be given consideration, but not economic migrants. As I said before take one million British males between 18 and 45 and send them to Germany. It may boost the bar trade but I am sure there will be a lot of drunken brawls vandalism and hooliganism. At the same time I think it is likely that Europe will become an Islamic continent within 100 years, as the numbers continue to arrive. However Christianity in Europe evolved with the concepts of the people. It may happen with Islam. It's also a good media for drum thumping.
However where free speech is concerned, we know it is being exercised when things that annoy many are being freely said. Of course we should talk about preventing incitement.

Your issue may be with the numbers, but most of the axe-grinders in this thread have an issue with the people themselves. The majority of them dislike, even hate Muslims generally and don't want any of them around.

There is no logical reason to accept the idea that Europe will become an Islamic continent at any time, ever, and concerns raised on that basis can and should be dismissed outright.

 

[Axulus]

There is no logical reason to accept the idea that Europe will become an Islamic continent at any time, ever, and concerns raised on that basis can and should be dismissed outright.

Then what's the problem? Why do you go for the authoritarian approach in trying to ban these ideas from being discussed given that they aren't that difficult to dismiss?

Banning bad ideas from being discussed leaves them unchallenged and able to spread unopposed in the dark.

 

[whichphilosophy]

If your concern is about the numbers, then that is what I have raised as the real concern. We don't have the resources though asylum seekers must be given consideration, but not economic migrants. As I said before take one million British males between 18 and 45 and send them to Germany. It may boost the bar trade but I am sure there will be a lot of drunken brawls vandalism and hooliganism. At the same time I think it is likely that Europe will become an Islamic continent within 100 years, as the numbers continue to arrive. However Christianity in Europe evolved with the concepts of the people. It may happen with Islam. It's also a good media for drum thumping.
However where free speech is concerned, we know it is being exercised when things that annoy many are being freely said. Of course we should talk about preventing incitement.

Your issue may be with the numbers, but most of the axe-grinders in this thread have an issue with the people themselves. The majority of them dislike, even hate Muslims generally and don't want any of them around.

There is no logical reason to accept the idea that Europe will become an Islamic continent at any time, ever, and concerns raised on that basis can and should be dismissed outright.

It's the largest growing religion in the World and given the volume that is spreading it is a likelihood but would take about 100 years. As far as dominance, religions come and go. There again a lot can change over the next ten years.

The real crimes however have been committed against Syria, Libya and Iraq, thus causing the migration into Europe, many of which are genuine asylum seekers.

 

[Warpoet]

Then what's the problem? Why do you go for the authoritarian approach in trying to ban these ideas from being discussed given that they aren't that difficult to dismiss?

Because ignorant assholes don't stop posting their bigoted bullshit just because they've been proven wrong and shown to be ignorant assholes. angelo in particular has been shot down at least 50 million times in this thread alone and keeps repeating the same old shit, linking to the same hate sites as if nothing happened. So fuck him; he's a one-note instrument that's been heard out far more than he deserves. He's not entitled to post this bullshit here indefinitely. He can go start his own forum and fill it with all the fucking JihadWatch links and generally ignorant asshattery he wants to, and he's more than welcome to take several others banging the same drum here with him.

Banning bad ideas from being discussed leaves them unchallenged and able to spread unopposed in the dark.

They've been proven wrong a zillion times over already and the same idiots keep posting them regardless. And, since you're towing the same idealistic line about free speech, I'll pose you the same question I've posed to others: should we allow pedophiles to come here and argue for the right to fuck little kids, and spam threads with links to pro-pedophilia websites?

If your answer is no, then you don't actually believe what you're saying and agree in principle that some bad ideas don't deserve airtime, certainly not without limitation. It's merely a question of where the line is drawn.

I'm quite sure that if someone were constantly spreading hate against blacks, Jews or gays to the extent that angelo does Muslims, warning us all about black savages coming to rape our women and children, regularly linking to StormFront and the like, they'd be banned already. And if not, I wouldn't be getting shit for suggesting they ought to, particularly since we have rules in place calling for exactly that. But only because we're talking about a group of people that's especially maligned by a significant number of posters here does this become a free speech issue.

 

[Warpoet]

It's the largest growing religion in the World and given the volume that is spreading it is a likelihood but would take about 100 years.

Until you produce a credible source that points to this conclusion, it's just your own speculative armchair analysis.

 

[faded_Glory]

I've dipped my toes into this thread a few times, but frankly it is like arguing with Jehovah's Witnesses - completely pointless. Facts and reasoned arguments won't penetrate deep-seated prejudice. Best thing to do would be to ignore the thread and let it sink off the front page.

 

[Warpoet]

I've dipped my toes into this thread a few times, but frankly it is like arguing with Jehovah's Witnesses - completely pointless. Facts and reasoned arguments won't penetrate deep-seated prejudice. Best thing to do would be to ignore the thread and let it sink off the front page.

I had hoped that would happen, but after 8 months and almost 400 pages it's clearly not going to. Several posters see this thread as their own little bigoted playground where they can post whatever fearmongering idiotic crap they want to and ignore reasoned counterarguments entirely.

 

[whichphilosophy]

It's the largest growing religion in the World and given the volume that is spreading it is a likelihood but would take about 100 years.

Until you produce a credible source that points to this conclusion, it's just your own speculative armchair analysis.

Even the best sources are giving calculated guesses. To simplify things in 1910 Islam represented 12.6 per cent of the world's population. In 2010 that increased nearly double to 22.5 percent)
If Islam reaches around 40 per cent by 2110 it will be the world's dominant religion (See data below).

See cut and paste from WIKI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion
Growth of religion is the spread of religions and the increase of religious adherents around the world. The statistics are commonly measured by the absolute number of adherents, the percentage of the absolute growth per year, and the growth of the number of converts in the world. Studies show that, in terms of percentage and world wide spread, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world.

In 1990, 1.1 billion people were Muslims, while in 2010, 1.6 billion people were Muslims.[2][75] According to the BBC, a comprehensive American study concluded in 2009 the number stood at approximately 23% of the world population with 60% of Muslims living in Asia.[76] From 1990 to 2010, the global Muslim population increased at an average annual rate of 2.2%. By 2030 Muslims are projected to represent about 26.4% of the global population (out of a total of 7.9 billion people).[5] However, according to others, including the 2003 edition of the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: "Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. On the other hand, in 2010 the Pew Forum stated: "Statistical data on conversion to and from Islam are scarce. What little information is available suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally; the number of people who become Muslims through conversion seems roughly equal to the number of Muslims who leave the faith. As a result, this report does not include any estimated future rate of conversions as a direct factor in the projections of Muslim population growth."[77] The growth of Islam from 2010 to 2020 has been estimated at 1.70%[5] due to high birthrates in Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. According to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the World Christian Database as of 2007 has Islam as the fastest-growing religion in the world.[78]Migration into Europe
The world religions data base provides the following picture
Islam
In 1910 there were 221,749.000 (12.6 percent of the World’s population)
In 2010 there were 1,553,773,00 (22.5 percent of the World’s population)
However one surprise to some for the same period is Atheism
In 1910 there were 243,000 known atheists
In 2010 there were 136,652,000 representing 2 percent of the World’s population
The percentage of Christians has decreased by just 2 percent between 1910 and 2010.

I may add that the growth of any religion incorporates all factors birth rates and net after departures etc.
While the Muslim population increasing it is accelarated in various degrees by the influx of refugees and others wishing to settle in Europe.

See Pewforum
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/...ation-growth/pf_15-04-02_projectionstables50/
(Chart)
FUTURE GROWTH (TABLE)
http://www.wnrf.org/cms/next200.shtml

PS more support data from research is needed as I notice this has dropped from a lot of forums.

 

[Warpoet]

If Islam reaches around 40 per cent by 2110 it will be the world's dominant religion (See data below).

But that's not what you said.

I may add that the growth of any religion incorporates all factors birth rates and net after departures etc.
While the Muslim population increasing it is accelarated in various degrees by the influx of refugees and others wishing to settle in Europe.

See Pewforum
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/...ation-growth/pf_15-04-02_projectionstables50/
(Chart)
FUTURE GROWTH (TABLE)
http://www.wnrf.org/cms/next200.shtml

PS more support data from research is needed as I notice this has dropped from a lot of forums.

Your claim was that it is likely that Europe will become Islamic by the end of the century. Yet, your Pew data indicates that by 2050, the Muslim population in most European countries will still be in the single digits, with the highest projection at 12.4 percent. That the number of Muslims in other parts of the world is growing, even if at a faster rate than other religions, is not relevant to what you claimed and not really news to anyone. So what on Earth makes you think this supports your position?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Until you produce a credible source that points to this conclusion, it's just your own speculative armchair analysis.

Even the best sources are giving calculated guesses. To simplify things in 1910 Islam represented 12.6 per cent of the world's population. In 2010 that increased nearly double to 22.5 percent)
If Islam reaches around 40 per cent by 2110 it will be the world's dominant religion (See data below).

See cut and paste from WIKI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion
Growth of religion is the spread of religions and the increase of religious adherents around the world. The statistics are commonly measured by the absolute number of adherents, the percentage of the absolute growth per year, and the growth of the number of converts in the world. Studies show that, in terms of percentage and world wide spread, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world.

In 1990, 1.1 billion people were Muslims, while in 2010, 1.6 billion people were Muslims.[2][75] According to the BBC, a comprehensive American study concluded in 2009 the number stood at approximately 23% of the world population with 60% of Muslims living in Asia.[76] From 1990 to 2010, the global Muslim population increased at an average annual rate of 2.2%. By 2030 Muslims are projected to represent about 26.4% of the global population (out of a total of 7.9 billion people).[5] However, according to others, including the 2003 edition of the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: "Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. On the other hand, in 2010 the Pew Forum stated: "Statistical data on conversion to and from Islam are scarce. What little information is available suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally; the number of people who become Muslims through conversion seems roughly equal to the number of Muslims who leave the faith. As a result, this report does not include any estimated future rate of conversions as a direct factor in the projections of Muslim population growth."[77] The growth of Islam from 2010 to 2020 has been estimated at 1.70%[5] due to high birthrates in Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. According to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the World Christian Database as of 2007 has Islam as the fastest-growing religion in the world.[78]Migration into Europe
The world religions data base provides the following picture
Islam
In 1910 there were 221,749.000 (12.6 percent of the World’s population)
In 2010 there were 1,553,773,00 (22.5 percent of the World’s population)
However one surprise to some for the same period is Atheism
In 1910 there were 243,000 known atheists
In 2010 there were 136,652,000 representing 2 percent of the World’s population
The percentage of Christians has decreased by just 2 percent between 1910 and 2010.

I may add that the growth of any religion incorporates all factors birth rates and net after departures etc.
While the Muslim population increasing it is accelarated in various degrees by the influx of refugees and others wishing to settle in Europe.

See Pewforum
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/...ation-growth/pf_15-04-02_projectionstables50/
(Chart)
FUTURE GROWTH (TABLE)
http://www.wnrf.org/cms/next200.shtml

PS more support data from research is needed as I notice this has dropped from a lot of forums.

Those numbers hide a lot of what is going on. A billion Christians in 1900 is not the same as a billion Christians in 2000. Christianity has liberalised greatly. I've seen a variety of studies and 1900-style Christianity is only big in USA. And even there it's marginal. It's dying in USA and pretty much dead everywhere else. If it can happen to Christianity I'm 100% sure it can happen to Islam. In fact we know it will. Muslim immigrants to the west have liberalised their religion greatly. A Muslim in Europe is not a Muslim in, let's say, Egypt. They might as well be different religions. Bottom line, even if Islamic numbers keep swelling (which I don't think it will)... who gives a shit? In a hundred years Islam will be so tolerant and liberal it'll be unrecognisable. That's my forecast.

An anecdote. I met an Egyptian programmer when both were on holiday diving in the Red Sea. Intelligent and devout Muslim. Didn't drink beer. I got him a job in Germany. Now he's lived there for two years. Now he can't get enough beer. He nags me to go out drinking when he's in Stockholm. He's still a muslim. But now he's the type of muslim that drinks beer.

BTW, Egypt is an extremely religious and conservative country. Alcohol is fully legal and available everywhere. It wouldn't be if there wasn't a market for it. There's a whole rigmarole of rituals to go through when drinking alcohol out in the country because it's socially frowned upon. But it is possible. We in the west aren't nearly as tolerant when it comes to Islamic drugs of choice. Worth keeping in mind before getting too high up on a liberalism horse.