Europe submits voluntarily

[DrZoidberg]

If the reality is that for every 100,000 Muslim immigrants you accept in, you earn one additional terrorist attack killing at least 10 or more people (over the next 20 years), is that an acceptable cost?

Where do you get that number from? I question it

 

[TSwizzle]

So it has been a constant for 1,500 years.

It's been constant since the dawn of man. Actually even further back. All primates are cunts to one another with regular tribal warfare. All that changed was the label. Same shit though. Haven't you forgotten why Islam could spread so fast to begin with? Byzantines and Persians had had a long protracted war that was so bloody and vicious that it left both of them utterly destroyed. Islam didn't invent fucking anything nor start a new violent trend.

Liberal democracy and our modern complex industrial economy has brought about stable relative peace in a way we've never seen before. And we know why. Simply put, the greater caloric surplus per capita an economy produces the less violent it is. It's a little bit more complicated. But essentially this is it. Religion, ideology or any faith is utterly irrelevant. It just falls back to human instinct. When basic safety is secure we become less anxious. We worry more about this life than the next. So we fix stuff, instead of breaking them. Religion doesn't make us violent and fuck shit up. When things are violent and stuff is fucked up... then we become religious. You're confusing the symptom with the cause.

Another dose of navel gazing mumbo jumbo that has no bearing on what is actually happening and has been going on for 1,500+ years.

 

[KeepTalking]

It's been constant since the dawn of man. Actually even further back. All primates are cunts to one another with regular tribal warfare. All that changed was the label. Same shit though. Haven't you forgotten why Islam could spread so fast to begin with? Byzantines and Persians had had a long protracted war that was so bloody and vicious that it left both of them utterly destroyed. Islam didn't invent fucking anything nor start a new violent trend.

Liberal democracy and our modern complex industrial economy has brought about stable relative peace in a way we've never seen before. And we know why. Simply put, the greater caloric surplus per capita an economy produces the less violent it is. It's a little bit more complicated. But essentially this is it. Religion, ideology or any faith is utterly irrelevant. It just falls back to human instinct. When basic safety is secure we become less anxious. We worry more about this life than the next. So we fix stuff, instead of breaking them. Religion doesn't make us violent and fuck shit up. When things are violent and stuff is fucked up... then we become religious. You're confusing the symptom with the cause.

Another dose of navel gazing mumbo jumbo that has no bearing on what is actually happening and has been going on for 1,500+ years.

Another does of fear mongering that has no bearing on what is actually happening and has been going on for 10,000+ years.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's been constant since the dawn of man. Actually even further back. All primates are cunts to one another with regular tribal warfare. All that changed was the label. Same shit though. Haven't you forgotten why Islam could spread so fast to begin with? Byzantines and Persians had had a long protracted war that was so bloody and vicious that it left both of them utterly destroyed. Islam didn't invent fucking anything nor start a new violent trend.

Liberal democracy and our modern complex industrial economy has brought about stable relative peace in a way we've never seen before. And we know why. Simply put, the greater caloric surplus per capita an economy produces the less violent it is. It's a little bit more complicated. But essentially this is it. Religion, ideology or any faith is utterly irrelevant. It just falls back to human instinct. When basic safety is secure we become less anxious. We worry more about this life than the next. So we fix stuff, instead of breaking them. Religion doesn't make us violent and fuck shit up. When things are violent and stuff is fucked up... then we become religious. You're confusing the symptom with the cause.

Another dose of navel gazing mumbo jumbo that has no bearing on what is actually happening and has been going on for 1,500+ years.

Good comeback. That showed me.

 

[TSwizzle]

Another dose of navel gazing mumbo jumbo that has no bearing on what is actually happening and has been going on for 1,500+ years.

Good comeback. That showed me.

I am not going to waste bandwidth on you. If nothing else, you have been consistent so it saves me reading your navel gazing clap trap entirely.

 

[Jayjay]

You underestimate the inherent tribalism and bigotry of the human race. Allow a perceived enemy to come in in too great of numbers via immigration, and far right neo-nazi parties get elected into power. This must always be taken into consideration when deciding on what immigration policy a country should adopt.

In the absence of this kind of tribalism and bigotry, we could have a different, more ideal policy.

This isn't how it works. Tribalism is what we get when civic institutions aren't working. Everybody strives for safety in life. If you can't get it from society in the form of a fat pay check, legal protection and political representation you're going to find it elsewhere, ie your super duper extended family, which is what a tribe is. And the price you pay for being in a tribe is that family goes before any other consideration.

The only way to break the hold of tribalism is to fix all those other things. Once you do tribalism just dissolves. So first, fix security and the economy, then democracy, and we won't even need to bother with breaking the grip of tribalism. It'll fix itself. How do we know this? Because this is what happened in the west. It's always the same story.

For the same reason we know that we don't have to care about Middle-Easterners coming here from a tribal background. Give it a generation and whatever residual tribal bullshit lingers goes away. How do we know this? Because this is how every immigrant group works. Just ask a Middle-Eastern immigrant. It's all the same story. They quickly realise that they don't need their tribe, and then stop caring about it.

Tell that to the gypsies, who after some half a millennium in Europe still cling to their tribes.

Also, second and third generation immigrants from islamic countries seem to be stil having huge issues integrating to western society. I think it's wishful thinking that everything will just sort itself out automatically.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Good comeback. That showed me.

I am not going to waste bandwidth on you. If nothing else, you have been consistent so it saves me reading your navel gazing clap trap entirely.

I don't think it's that all. All you've got is a theory that is so retardedly simplistic it collapses at the merest poke. There's just no way to twist that around and find a perspective that holds water. If your theory is a boat it would be the Titanic. It's only unsinkable in your head.

I think you're not arguing your case because I don't think you can. Because there's no substance to it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This isn't how it works. Tribalism is what we get when civic institutions aren't working. Everybody strives for safety in life. If you can't get it from society in the form of a fat pay check, legal protection and political representation you're going to find it elsewhere, ie your super duper extended family, which is what a tribe is. And the price you pay for being in a tribe is that family goes before any other consideration.

The only way to break the hold of tribalism is to fix all those other things. Once you do tribalism just dissolves. So first, fix security and the economy, then democracy, and we won't even need to bother with breaking the grip of tribalism. It'll fix itself. How do we know this? Because this is what happened in the west. It's always the same story.

For the same reason we know that we don't have to care about Middle-Easterners coming here from a tribal background. Give it a generation and whatever residual tribal bullshit lingers goes away. How do we know this? Because this is how every immigrant group works. Just ask a Middle-Eastern immigrant. It's all the same story. They quickly realise that they don't need their tribe, and then stop caring about it.

Tell that to the gypsies, who after some half a millennium in Europe still cling to their tribes.

Also, second and third generation immigrants from islamic countries seem to be stil having huge issues integrating to western society. I think it's wishful thinking that everything will just sort itself out automatically.

Look at the high-lighted. Due to racism gypsies have none of that. Hence tribalism lingers in their community. It just proves my point.

 

[TSwizzle]

The Labour Party in the UK, well in England to be more precise (and much of academia), where the bulk of teh muslims live, has been thoroughly compromised by the far left and their anti Jewish muslim bedfellows;

Naz Shah, the Bradford West MP accused of antisemitism, has been suspended from the Labour party “by mutual agreement” after David Cameron said it was “extraordinary” that someone who appeared to have suggested Israelis should be deported to the US continued to hold the Labour whip. Jeremy Corbyn had earlier said he would not suspend the MP, who then issued a “heartfelt apology” in the House of Commons. His aides defended her, saying the comments were antisemitic but the MP had “shocked herself” and did not mean what she said, so she could not be described as antisemitic. But little more than two hours later, Labour announced that Shah had been suspended “by mutual agreement” while claims against her were investigated by Labour’s national executive committee.

Guardian

No need for a muslim brotherhood in the UK.

 

[Jayjay]

Tell that to the gypsies, who after some half a millennium in Europe still cling to their tribes.

Also, second and third generation immigrants from islamic countries seem to be stil having huge issues integrating to western society. I think it's wishful thinking that everything will just sort itself out automatically.

Look at the high-lighted. Due to racism gypsies have none of that. Hence tribalism lingers in their community. It just proves my point.

The gypsies have been living in secure, democratic and economically well-off countries just as long as the Swedes or French have. And actually those who leave the fold face practically no racism whatsoever. It's the ones that stick to their tribal ways that face backlash of "racism" (though I wouldn't call it racism, as it's not based on race but culture).

 

[DrZoidberg]

Look at the high-lighted. Due to racism gypsies have none of that. Hence tribalism lingers in their community. It just proves my point.

The gypsies have been living in secure, democratic and economically well-off countries just as long as the Swedes or French have. And actually those who leave the fold face practically no racism whatsoever. It's the ones that stick to their tribal ways that face backlash of "racism" (though I wouldn't call it racism, as it's not based on race but culture).

Just goes to show how little you know. Out of pure chance I just happen to know two people who work with Roma issues. One heads an EU initiative to integrate Gypsies into society, across Europe. Which is awesome and cool, but means I have some insight. The other one works in Romania with setting up a business that only employs Gypsies. The plan is to make them self sufficient and enter the jobs market.

Gypsies face tremendous racism all over Europe. It's really bad. Even in Sweden. They are effectively shut out of society. Even though in Sweden we let them live off welfare perpetually, they're still shut out from society socially. Without tribalism they'd have zero social life. The only real intermingling with non-Gypsy Swedish people they get from membership in Baptist churches, which is big among the Gypsies. But Sweden being Sweden. Normal people aren't religious. Actively religious people here tend to have serious mental problems.

Just because somebody lives in a rich country doesn't mean everybody in that country gets the fruits of that wealth. Even the world's richest country, USA, has homeless people. And democracy is worthless without representation. If those in power don't give a fuck about Gypsies and Gypsies are a minority it's the tyranny of the majority. Which is going on in most of Europe. In most of Europe their integration attempts have been nothing but talk.

And because they've the last couple of centuries been persecuted by the government they've developed a tribal country of extreme mistrust of governments. Trust is earned. We've got to earn it if we want Gypsies to integrate. It's a lot harder building trust than fucking it up. This is going to take time. But just like you give evidence of, most people blame the Gypsies themselves. And as long as most people are doing that nothing will change. We need a shift in attitude towards them. Until then it'll just stay like this.

 

[TSwizzle]

You're the mail man, you never fail to deliver. Cliff Clavin to be precise.

 

[bilby]

Uganda?

I'm worried about Utah.

And Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Missouri...

Ted Cruz is in the running to get his hands on the world's largest nuclear arsenal, and you think I should worry about Uganda??!?

Shit, half the reason for the radical nature of Ugandan Christianity is American missionaries stoking the fire.

Why would you worry about an insignificant threat (Ted Cruz) in it's last dying breath?

https://electionbettingodds.com/

Also, reread my post. I said only worry about Christianity (and the associated right wing support that will gather) if immigrants from places like Uganda are arriving by the hundreds of thousands. Is that happening? No.

Re-read my reply. I said you don't need Ugandan immigrants; you have plenty of crazy Christian extremists already, and if as and when they see their influence waning, there is nothing special about them that will stop them from becoming violent.

Being born in America is not an inoculation against terrorism.

 

[Jayjay]

The gypsies have been living in secure, democratic and economically well-off countries just as long as the Swedes or French have. And actually those who leave the fold face practically no racism whatsoever. It's the ones that stick to their tribal ways that face backlash of "racism" (though I wouldn't call it racism, as it's not based on race but culture).

Just goes to show how little you know. Out of pure chance I just happen to know two people who work with Roma issues. One heads an EU initiative to integrate Gypsies into society, across Europe. Which is awesome and cool, but means I have some insight. The other one works in Romania with setting up a business that only employs Gypsies. The plan is to make them self sufficient and enter the jobs market.

Gypsies face tremendous racism all over Europe. It's really bad. Even in Sweden. They are effectively shut out of society. Even though in Sweden we let them live off welfare perpetually, they're still shut out from society socially. Without tribalism they'd have zero social life. The only real intermingling with non-Gypsy Swedish people they get from membership in Baptist churches, which is big among the Gypsies. But Sweden being Sweden. Normal people aren't religious. Actively religious people here tend to have serious mental problems.

Just because somebody lives in a rich country doesn't mean everybody in that country gets the fruits of that wealth. Even the world's richest country, USA, has homeless people. And democracy is worthless without representation. If those in power don't give a fuck about Gypsies and Gypsies are a minority it's the tyranny of the majority. Which is going on in most of Europe. In most of Europe their integration attempts have been nothing but talk.

And because they've the last couple of centuries been persecuted by the government they've developed a tribal country of extreme mistrust of governments. Trust is earned. We've got to earn it if we want Gypsies to integrate. It's a lot harder building trust than fucking it up. This is going to take time. But just like you give evidence of, most people blame the Gypsies themselves. And as long as most people are doing that nothing will change. We need a shift in attitude towards them. Until then it'll just stay like this.

So it is not just economics, democracy and security, we also need an "attitude shift" and "building trust". Which, as history tells us, is not likely to happen on its own if people are left on their own devices.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The only weapon that works against radicalised Christianity is a functioning economy. Wherever you fix that radicalisation becomes increasingly rare.

Yup, the radical Christians in a decent economy are lone wolves, not large organizations.

A good economy puts a serious crimp in radical Islam also--which is part of why radical Islam destroys the economy wherever it has the power to do so.

- - - Updated - - -

If the reality is that for every 100,000 Muslim immigrants you accept in, you earn one additional terrorist attack killing at least 10 or more people (over the next 20 years), is that an acceptable cost?

Where do you get that number from? I question it

He appears to be talking a hypothetical, I think his number is just to make a point, it's not meant to be accurate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The gypsies have been living in secure, democratic and economically well-off countries just as long as the Swedes or French have. And actually those who leave the fold face practically no racism whatsoever. It's the ones that stick to their tribal ways that face backlash of "racism" (though I wouldn't call it racism, as it's not based on race but culture).

Just goes to show how little you know. Out of pure chance I just happen to know two people who work with Roma issues. One heads an EU initiative to integrate Gypsies into society, across Europe. Which is awesome and cool, but means I have some insight. The other one works in Romania with setting up a business that only employs Gypsies. The plan is to make them self sufficient and enter the jobs market.

Gypsies face tremendous racism all over Europe. It's really bad. Even in Sweden. They are effectively shut out of society. Even though in Sweden we let them live off welfare perpetually, they're still shut out from society socially. Without tribalism they'd have zero social life. The only real intermingling with non-Gypsy Swedish people they get from membership in Baptist churches, which is big among the Gypsies. But Sweden being Sweden. Normal people aren't religious. Actively religious people here tend to have serious mental problems.

Just because somebody lives in a rich country doesn't mean everybody in that country gets the fruits of that wealth. Even the world's richest country, USA, has homeless people. And democracy is worthless without representation. If those in power don't give a fuck about Gypsies and Gypsies are a minority it's the tyranny of the majority. Which is going on in most of Europe. In most of Europe their integration attempts have been nothing but talk.

And because they've the last couple of centuries been persecuted by the government they've developed a tribal country of extreme mistrust of governments. Trust is earned. We've got to earn it if we want Gypsies to integrate. It's a lot harder building trust than fucking it up. This is going to take time. But just like you give evidence of, most people blame the Gypsies themselves. And as long as most people are doing that nothing will change. We need a shift in attitude towards them. Until then it'll just stay like this.

They're shut out from the rest of society so long as they keep their gypsy ties--understandable given the reputation for fraud and theft they have. That's not to say that someone who leaves the gypsy culture won't be accepted by society.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The Labour Party in the UK, well in England to be more precise (and much of academia), where the bulk of teh muslims live, has been thoroughly compromised by the far left and their anti Jewish muslim bedfellows;

Naz Shah, the Bradford West MP accused of antisemitism, has been suspended from the Labour party “by mutual agreement” after David Cameron said it was “extraordinary” that someone who appeared to have suggested Israelis should be deported to the US continued to hold the Labour whip. Jeremy Corbyn had earlier said he would not suspend the MP, who then issued a “heartfelt apology” in the House of Commons. His aides defended her, saying the comments were antisemitic but the MP had “shocked herself” and did not mean what she said, so she could not be described as antisemitic. But little more than two hours later, Labour announced that Shah had been suspended “by mutual agreement” while claims against her were investigated by Labour’s national executive committee.

Guardian

No need for a muslim brotherhood in the UK.

but the MP had “shocked herself” and did not mean what she said, [/I]
Labour should not have suspended her to ensure its defeat in the next election.
Anyway this is no loss for the UK

 

[DrZoidberg]

Just goes to show how little you know. Out of pure chance I just happen to know two people who work with Roma issues. One heads an EU initiative to integrate Gypsies into society, across Europe. Which is awesome and cool, but means I have some insight. The other one works in Romania with setting up a business that only employs Gypsies. The plan is to make them self sufficient and enter the jobs market.

Gypsies face tremendous racism all over Europe. It's really bad. Even in Sweden. They are effectively shut out of society. Even though in Sweden we let them live off welfare perpetually, they're still shut out from society socially. Without tribalism they'd have zero social life. The only real intermingling with non-Gypsy Swedish people they get from membership in Baptist churches, which is big among the Gypsies. But Sweden being Sweden. Normal people aren't religious. Actively religious people here tend to have serious mental problems.

Just because somebody lives in a rich country doesn't mean everybody in that country gets the fruits of that wealth. Even the world's richest country, USA, has homeless people. And democracy is worthless without representation. If those in power don't give a fuck about Gypsies and Gypsies are a minority it's the tyranny of the majority. Which is going on in most of Europe. In most of Europe their integration attempts have been nothing but talk.

And because they've the last couple of centuries been persecuted by the government they've developed a tribal country of extreme mistrust of governments. Trust is earned. We've got to earn it if we want Gypsies to integrate. It's a lot harder building trust than fucking it up. This is going to take time. But just like you give evidence of, most people blame the Gypsies themselves. And as long as most people are doing that nothing will change. We need a shift in attitude towards them. Until then it'll just stay like this.

So it is not just economics, democracy and security, we also need an "attitude shift" and "building trust". Which, as history tells us, is not likely to happen on its own if people are left on their own devices.

Yes, it is. Until we'be included them into the economy, make them feel safe and given them representation they might as well not be a part of our society. Which they in practice aren't. In this case we get what we deserve.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Just goes to show how little you know. Out of pure chance I just happen to know two people who work with Roma issues. One heads an EU initiative to integrate Gypsies into society, across Europe. Which is awesome and cool, but means I have some insight. The other one works in Romania with setting up a business that only employs Gypsies. The plan is to make them self sufficient and enter the jobs market.

Gypsies face tremendous racism all over Europe. It's really bad. Even in Sweden. They are effectively shut out of society. Even though in Sweden we let them live off welfare perpetually, they're still shut out from society socially. Without tribalism they'd have zero social life. The only real intermingling with non-Gypsy Swedish people they get from membership in Baptist churches, which is big among the Gypsies. But Sweden being Sweden. Normal people aren't religious. Actively religious people here tend to have serious mental problems.

Just because somebody lives in a rich country doesn't mean everybody in that country gets the fruits of that wealth. Even the world's richest country, USA, has homeless people. And democracy is worthless without representation. If those in power don't give a fuck about Gypsies and Gypsies are a minority it's the tyranny of the majority. Which is going on in most of Europe. In most of Europe their integration attempts have been nothing but talk.

And because they've the last couple of centuries been persecuted by the government they've developed a tribal country of extreme mistrust of governments. Trust is earned. We've got to earn it if we want Gypsies to integrate. It's a lot harder building trust than fucking it up. This is going to take time. But just like you give evidence of, most people blame the Gypsies themselves. And as long as most people are doing that nothing will change. We need a shift in attitude towards them. Until then it'll just stay like this.

They're shut out from the rest of society so long as they keep their gypsy ties--understandable given the reputation for fraud and theft they have. That's not to say that someone who leaves the gypsy culture won't be accepted by society.

This is just how tribalism works. It works both ways. The in-group put a lot of pressure on members not to leave. This is how they do it. They only count criminal acts against other gypsies. This is why it's so difficult trying to democratise a tribal culture. Whoever is elected will be under tremendous pressure to give unfair advantages to their tribe. Everybody knows this. So they'll all just vote for whatever tribe they belong regardless of the candidates opinion. The presidents wish to keep the democracy going is pretty far down the list.

 

[Bomb#20]

A: You underestimate the inherent tribalism and bigotry of the human race. Allow a perceived enemy to come in in too great of numbers via immigration, and far right neo-nazi parties get elected into power. This must always be taken into consideration when deciding on what immigration policy a country should adopt.

DZ: The only way to break the hold of tribalism is to fix all those other things. Once you do tribalism just dissolves. So first, fix security and the economy, then democracy, and we won't even need to bother with breaking the grip of tribalism. It'll fix itself. How do we know this? Because this is what happened in the west. It's always the same story. For the same reason we know that we don't have to care about Middle-Easterners coming here from a tribal background. Give it a generation

Jj: Tell that to the gypsies, who after some half a millennium in Europe still cling to their tribes. Also, second and third generation immigrants from islamic countries seem to be stil having huge issues integrating to western society. I think it's wishful thinking that everything will just sort itself out automatically.

DZ: Look at the high-lighted. Due to racism gypsies have none of that. Hence tribalism lingers in their community. It just proves my point.

Jj: It's the ones that stick to their tribal ways that face backlash of "racism" (though I wouldn't call it racism, as it's not based on race but culture).

DZ: Trust is earned. We've got to earn it if we want Gypsies to integrate.

Jj: So it is not just economics, democracy and security, we also need an "attitude shift" and "building trust". Which, as history tells us, is not likely to happen on its own if people are left on their own devices.

DZ: Yes, it is. Until we'be included them into the economy, make them feel safe and given them representation they might as well not be a part of our society. Which they in practice aren't.

There isn't going to be a problem with persistent Middle-Eastern tribalism after another generation, because tribalism has always gone away in the west; and the fact that it hasn't always gone away in the west just proves his point.

In this case we get what we deserve.

And that's the bottom line. Tribalism, mistrust, insecurity, and economic difficulties have bedeviled mankind for two hundred thousand years; and if Western civilization can't fix them all in one more generation, then it doesn't deserve not to have to descend back into the state of intercommunal conflict it so recently emerged from. So even if taking in millions of migrants really does end up turning most of Europe into post-Tito Yugoslavia, that's okay, and that doesn't justify its current governments preventing it from happening, because if taking them in has the power to cause that then it proves Western culture deserves it.

That's pretty much the definition of voluntary submission.