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Wrong. I have outlined my position on this and other threads numerous times.

Yeah, we've all seen it. Like when you just got done screaming about Islamic invaders taking over Sweden one town at a time, panicking over Sharia patrols and demographic trends that don't exist and asking how long it is before non-Muslim Europeans become dhimmis.

So really, stop trying to dress your bigotry up as something it isn't. It's a dishonest chickenshit tactic that racist fuckwads hide behind all the time, and it doesn't fool anybody. Your issue isn't with uncontrolled Muslim immigration, it's with Muslim immigration period. You see Muslims only in terms of what they can take from society and never even consider the prospect of them adding something to it. You view them all as innately incompatible with Western society and guilty until proven innocent when it comes to extremism. You don't think they're entitled to the same rights or respect as you simply by virtue of their being Muslims. It's all painfully evident from your relentless fearmongering, even if you occasionally try to backtrack. So, my description of you as a fucking bigot sticks whether you like it or not, sweetheart.

Bullshit. It is you with your ridiculous "alt-reich" nonsense who is the ignoramus.
I probably have much more experience and exposure to Islam and Islamism than you. For example, I grew up in a country that was partially islamicized.

Oh I'm sure you have a satisfying life full of rich and informative experiences on all kinds of issues like this one, Derec. That naturally explains why you spend apparently all your free time on a message board where everyone despises you, bitching about women and minorities and all kinds of shit that doesn't affect your life at all instead of interacting with real human beings.

Once again: fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you xenophobic prick.
 
So really, stop trying to dress your bigotry up as something it isn't. It's a dishonest chickenshit tactic that racist fuckwads hide behind all the time, and it doesn't fool anybody.

I think it fools some people.

edit: We had the same arguments in the 90'ies about all the Bosnian Muslim immigrants flooding into our lands. They were going to rape and pillage and bring us back to the stone age. Nope. None of that happened. Sweden has a technically advanced high end economy, so it took a while for these to find jobs. But now it's been 20 years. They have jobs now. Everybody here has a Bogdan or Valentina at the office. My dentist is Bosnian.

Anyhoo... so what is the new idiotic argument the racists (yes, they're racists) come up with now? Bosnia and Syria are completely different. Just because it worked out so well with the Bosnians doesn't mean it won't work out well with the Syrians. It'll be fine.
 
So really, stop trying to dress your bigotry up as something it isn't. It's a dishonest chickenshit tactic that racist fuckwads hide behind all the time, and it doesn't fool anybody.

I think it fools some people.

edit: We had the same arguments in the 90'ies about all the Bosnian Muslim immigrants flooding into our lands. They were going to rape and pillage and bring us back to the stone age. Nope. None of that happened. Sweden has a technically advanced high end economy, so it took a while for these to find jobs. But now it's been 20 years. They have jobs now. Everybody here has a Bogdan or Valentina at the office. My dentist is Bosnian.

Anyhoo... so what is the new idiotic argument the racists (yes, they're racists) come up with now? Bosnia and Syria are completely different. Just because it worked out so well with the Bosnians doesn't mean it won't work out well with the Syrians. It'll be fine.

Go tell that to Merkel, before she started deporting "refugees"
 
Another myth that needs to die is that the equivalent of ISIS can't happen in the west. You don't need a lot of political instability to create the necessary foundation for an authoritarian political party to grab power. The west has been historically blessed with a very long protracted period of constant economic growth, and new generations finding new jobs. But the only industries that are still growing are technology industries and westerners aren't all that interested in becoming engineers. And the robot revolution will just hurry up that trend even more. And it's not just blue collar jobs. Business intelligence systems is about to replace white collar jobs to.

What happens to western social stability then? Trump and Brexit proves that people are stupid, and when under pressure they'll panic and vote for whatever populist says the right magical words.

Thinking that our culture is somehow superior to Syrian culture is dangerous. Because it risks making us complacent and blind to similar movement here. Trump winning is proof of that.

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Go tell that to Merkel, before she started deporting "refugees"

I don't know what you're trying to say
 

Well, why wouldn't they ship out people who came to Germany and falsely claimed to be refugees? Do you have an actual point?

All I've ever said is that preventing genuine refugees from coming to safe countries just because some of them aren't genuine refugees is immoral. This is how to deal with. Take in whoever claims they're a refugee, and then sort it out, and send back those who came on false pretences.

It sucks being a refugee. And it sucks that there are those who take advantage of the stream of refugees. But it's not that much of a problem. But it sucks way more for the Syrian refugees. We're at most a bit inconvenienced. The refugees have had their entire lives destroyed. I can't see what we're whining about.
 

Well, why wouldn't they ship out people who came to Germany and falsely claimed to be refugees? Do you have an actual point?

All I've ever said is that preventing genuine refugees from coming to safe countries just because some of them aren't genuine refugees is immoral. This is how to deal with. Take in whoever claims they're a refugee, and then sort it out, and send back those who came on false pretences.

It sucks being a refugee. And it sucks that there are those who take advantage of the stream of refugees. But it's not that much of a problem. But it sucks way more for the Syrian refugees. We're at most a bit inconvenienced. The refugees have had their entire lives destroyed. I can't see what we're whining about.
I know you are not going to admit that Europe (not Sweden) and particularly Germany is changing their stance on this problem. Germany plans to deport half of the people. And the way it's going they will deport most of the other half once Syria is semiOK. Merkel is no longer agrees with you.
 
Well, why wouldn't they ship out people who came to Germany and falsely claimed to be refugees? Do you have an actual point?

All I've ever said is that preventing genuine refugees from coming to safe countries just because some of them aren't genuine refugees is immoral. This is how to deal with. Take in whoever claims they're a refugee, and then sort it out, and send back those who came on false pretences.

It sucks being a refugee. And it sucks that there are those who take advantage of the stream of refugees. But it's not that much of a problem. But it sucks way more for the Syrian refugees. We're at most a bit inconvenienced. The refugees have had their entire lives destroyed. I can't see what we're whining about.
I know you are not going to admit that Europe (not Sweden) and particularly Germany is changing their stance on this problem. Germany plans to deport half of the people.

You're mixing things. What Europe (well, the west really) is experiencing is a wave of populist right wing political parties who's rise has been going for 20 years now. Way longer than the war in Syria.

These populists are willing to say anything to scare people. Sweden and Germany changing stances doesn't mean that change in stance is rational. Trump in USA got elected. Brexit for UK. It's pretty clear that none of their voters had a clue what they were voting about. The anti-Brexit votors were voting about receiving less Syrian refugees. But that wasn't what the election was about. These people are clearly idiots.

I personally think that the rise of the alt right is purely a product of the Internet. Social media has diverted people's attention away from traditional media. So now the information the majority of people consume are not produced by well educated people who know what they're talking about. Today people are mostly being informed by sensationalist click-bait.

Just now Derec compared the New York Times with Jihadwatch. The former is traditional media with high journalistic standards who check and verify every detail of what they publish. Jihadwatch will publish any rumour or fantasy as long as it conforms to their world view. I wouldn't be surprised if Jihadwatch is written by bots. Most click-bait on-line publications are. This is the difference between old and new media. And it's the new media that has given rise to the alt right. Anyhoo.. that's my personal theory on what this is about.

And the Syrian refugees had the bad luck of arriving in the middle of this.
 
I know you are not going to admit that Europe (not Sweden) and particularly Germany is changing their stance on this problem. Germany plans to deport half of the people.

You're mixing things. What Europe (well, the west really) is experiencing is a wave of populist right wing political parties who's rise has been going for 20 years now. Way longer than the war in Syria.

These populists are willing to say anything to scare people. Sweden and Germany changing stances doesn't mean that change in stance is rational. Trump in USA got elected. Brexit for UK. It's pretty clear that none of their voters had a clue what they were voting about. The anti-Brexit votors were voting about receiving less Syrian refugees. But that wasn't what the election was about. These people are clearly idiots.

I personally think that the rise of the alt right is purely a product of the Internet. Social media has diverted people's attention away from traditional media. So now the information the majority of people consume are not produced by well educated people who know what they're talking about. Today people are mostly being informed by sensationalist click-bait.
Again, Merkel admitted being wrong, so should you.
Just now Derec compared the New York Times with Jihadwatch. The former is traditional media with high journalistic standards who check and verify every detail of what they publish. Jihadwatch will publish any rumour or fantasy as long as it conforms to their world view. This is the difference between old and new media. And it's the new media that has given rise to the alt right.
I don't keep track of quality of New York Times, but in that particular case they did piss poor job by failing to mention that these were bosnian "muslims"
And the Syrian refugees had the bad luck of arriving in the middle of this.

Not refugees, half-refugees.
 
Again, Merkel admitted being wrong, so should you.

I think it's about politics. I think she's saying what she needs to say to get re-elected.

It'll be ten years at least before we know if it was a mistake or not to take in these refugees. Calling it now is way too early.

Not refugees, half-refugees.


WTF is a half-refugee? Are you going to chop off their arms or something?
 
I think it's about politics. I think she's saying what she needs to say to get re-elected.
She admitted "multiculturalim" failure long time ago. As for the politics, then who the fuck are you to ignore majority of people in Europe? King of Europe?
It'll be ten years at least before we know if it was a mistake or not to take in these refugees. Calling it now is way too early.

Not refugees, half-refugees.


WTF is a half-refugee? Are you going to chop off their arms or something?

It means half of them (at least) are not refugees at all.
 
Syrians aren't uneducated Muslims either. Syria under Assad was also a secular country. Both allied with the USSR back in the day. The more I think of it the more they have in common, than not.
Syrian Muslims are much more religious than Bosnian Muslims, even when you account for (largely Saudi funded) re-islamization after the break-up of Yugoslavia. Before the war, it was a rarity to see a woman in a hijab, and burqas were non-existent. Not so much today, although it is still better than Syria (where most Muslim women wear a hijab) and orders of magnitude better than say Pakistan or Afghanistan.

Also, Yugoslavia was not allied with USSR, not since 1948. In fact, they were adversaries.

And lastly, Syrians are less than half of the mass migration crisis that has been hitting Europe for years now. Many are from countries such as Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, that are more regligious still and much, much more religious than Bosnian Muslims. As I said before, 99% of Afghans support Sharia for example. Is it any wonder then that Muslim migrants demand Sharia in Europe?
 
I wonder why the only sites who have that information are alt right sites? Is it a liberal cover up? Or is it perhaps statistics mining?
Kronenzeitung is not some fringe website. It's Austria's largest newspaper, even if it skews right on some issues - that's no crime.
Better question is, are left-wing outlets downplaying the problem because of their islamophilia.
Kind of like the UK media hushed up the Rotterham sex abuse ring because they did not want to be politically incorrect toward Muslim migrants ...
 
In what way? I don't think they're all that different. Both suffered under a socialist corrupt autocrat. Both kleptocracies.
But the level of conservative/fundamentalist religious belief among the Muslims is very different. You can pretend current Muslim mass migration is the same as immigration from Bosnia all you want, but they are not even close to being equivalent.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic is a total dick. He's famous for it. The only reason people put up with his constant abuse and bullshit is because he's good at football. You could not have picked a worse representative of Muslims.
I think his point is that he is not particularly Muslim. Unlike people coming from places like Afghanistan, who are not only 99.7% Muslim, but also 99% fundamentalist about it.

Especially considering he's Catholic.
His mother is Catholic, his father Muslim. According to the wiki page, he sees himself as "religious syncretist, drawing from the Islamic, Catholic and Buddhist spiritual traditions." FWIW. But both he and his father are a far cry from fundy Muslims from the Middle East.

Did you think he was a Muslim because he was a Bosnian and looks Middle-Eastern?
He looks middle Eastern?
 
She admitted "multiculturalim" failure long time ago. As for the politics, then who the fuck are you to ignore majority of people in Europe? King of Europe?

ha ha ha. On that topic. Merkel isn't the queen of Europe. She can't decide that the research on the topic is wrong. Like it or not multiculturalism is the new reality of the world. Our new global economy demands it. I'm right now sitting in IKEA's head office in Sweden completely surrounded by Indians. Why, you may ask? Because the talent doesn't exist here. We have to import it.

Sweden has to chose between multiculturalism or a tanking economy. The choice is simple. Nobody wants to be poor.

The economist Richard Florida has studied the relation between how many homosexuals were uncloseted and how well the economy was doing. Turns out the more gays were open about it the better the economy did. Conclusion, the more tolerant a society is with people who break the norm the better the economy does. But it's not just gays. All successful trading hubs around the world are such because they adopted multiculturalism centuries ago.

The facts are that multiculturalism is very good for the economy. You might not like it. And you may feel, emotionally, that you don't recognise your country. But at the end of the day it's all about the cold hard cash. If it makes us rich and happy we're going make do.

Merkel wants to be re-elected. So she says the words she needs to say to get re-elected. Democracy isn't a guarantee for the wisest political choices. Sometimes (mostly?) people are primarily swayed by emotional argumentation and then that's what politicians will use.
 
Yeah, we've all seen it. Like when you just got done screaming about Islamic invaders taking over Sweden one town at a time, panicking over Sharia patrols and demographic trends that don't exist and asking how long it is before non-Muslim Europeans become dhimmis.
Consider my three points. I am not for banning immigration by Muslims in general, but there need to be reasonable standards regarding numbers, what kind of people you let immigrate and a way to get rid of criminals. Why these three points should be in any way controversial is baffling to me.

As to "taking over one town at a time", that's just a consequence of mass migration. When you let in a huge number of people in from a very different culture there is not much pressure to integrate - because there are so many of them they can form parallel societies. They do not settle uniformly, but congregate such that they form local majorities while still having relatively low population numbers overall. Hence, taking over one town at a time. Many parts of major European cities (like Rickeby/Little Mogadishu in Stockholm) are already taken over by Islam.

This is just a consequence of mass migration coupled with high birth rates. Their population share keeps increasing, and will keep increasing. If you extrapolate, they will become majority in Europe in a few decades, unless there is a major policy change or they start giving up Islam en masse (unlikely with them forming parallel societies rather than integrating).

Sharia patrols are also a real thing. For example the UK one even has it's own wiki page:  Sharia patrols
There are also such patrols (calling themselves "police") in Wuppertal, Germany: German court acquits 'Sharia Police' in Wuppertal

So really, stop trying to dress your bigotry up as something it isn't. It's a dishonest chickenshit tactic that racist fuckwads hide behind all the time, and it doesn't fool anybody.
Name-calling is not a substitute for reasoned arguments. I have offered reasons for my positions, but all you have is calling people bigots. You are worse than John Cleese in the Argument Clinic.

Your issue isn't with uncontrolled Muslim immigration, it's with Muslim immigration period.
Wrong.

You see Muslims only in terms of what they can take from society and never even consider the prospect of them adding something to it. You view them all as innately incompatible with Western society and guilty until proven innocent when it comes to extremism.
Extremist/fundamentalist Muslims are innately incompatible with Western societies and should not be allowed to immigrate at all, much less in large numbers. When you have a mass, chaotic influx of migrants there is no way to check people for compatibility with Western values. Thus, many people incompatible with those values will end up coming in. That is especially true when they tend to come from areas where Islamic fundamentalism is a majority position (or in case of Afghanistan, almost universal position).

But you are attributing to me positions that I do not have. You cannot argue with my actual positions, so you set up a straw-Derec, easier to knock down.
I know many Muslim people who are very much compatible with Western society and an asset. For example, most Bosnian Muslims as well as Iranian immigrants whose families fled the weirdbeards taking over.
But I also unfortunately know Muslims who are exactly the opposite.

You don't think they're entitled to the same rights or respect as you simply by virtue of their being Muslims.
Again, straw-derec.

Once again: fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you xenophobic prick.
Well, who can argue with such well-constructed, well-reasoned argument?

You are proving my point that the only thing you have are insults and name-calling.
 
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edit: We had the same arguments in the 90'ies about all the Bosnian Muslim immigrants flooding into our lands.
The two situations are not even remotely similar!
For one, the numbers. All of Bosnia has a population less than the number of Muslim migrants who flooded Europe in the last 2 years. Thus, Bosnian migration was a much more manageable thing.
Second, Muslims are about 50% of Bosnia (as opposed to 92% for Syria and 99.7% for Afghanistan) and Bosnian Muslims tend to be much more secular than those of Syria etc.
Thirdly, refugee resettlement should be largely a regional effort - Europe/US cannot take on the responsibility of being there for the whole world to settle. Bosnia is a European country, while Syria is an Asian/Middle Eastern country. Why aren't rich Gulf states doing anything?

Everybody here has a Bogdan or Valentina at the office.
Neither one of these are Muslim names. Bogdan means "given by god" (not Allah) and is an old Slavic Christian name that is also common in Bulgaria etc. And Valentina is obviously the Slavic female form of Roman/Latin name Valentine/us, which is a name shared by a number of Christian saints as well as a Gnostic heretic. :)

My dentist is Bosnian.
What's his name?

Anyhoo... so what is the new idiotic argument the racists (yes, they're racists) come up with now?
Just because we disagree with your polyannish nonsense does not mean we are "racist". Especially since Syrians are classified as white and many are rather fair-skinned.
russian-president-medvedev-visits-syria.jpg

A white guy if I ever saw one.

Bosnia and Syria are completely different. Just because it worked out so well with the Bosnians doesn't mean it won't work out well with the Syrians. It'll be fine.
Yes, they are. And Bosnia and Afghanistan even more so. It's not about race, it's about culture and the relationship between religion and society. You won't find many (if any) Bosnians demanding Sharia law.
Sharia-law.jpg

Why can't we agree that the people like the ones in the photo above are not compatible with Western values, are not an enrichment to Europe and that we need more of them like we need a hole in the head?

And again, most of these migrants are not even fleeing the war in Syria. They come from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Nigeria etc. Europe can't be expected to take all the millions of people who want to come there.
 
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More bad news for Sweden;

The Muslim Brotherhood is creating a 'parallel social structure' in Sweden with the help of 'political elites' who foster a culture of silence, a damning government report has found. The document claims that the Brotherhood is building a 'parallel society' within the Scandinavian country, which can help the Islamist group to achieve its ends.

DailyMail

Enjoy !
 
More bad news for Sweden;

The Muslim Brotherhood is creating a 'parallel social structure' in Sweden with the help of 'political elites' who foster a culture of silence, a damning government report has found. The document claims that the Brotherhood is building a 'parallel society' within the Scandinavian country, which can help the Islamist group to achieve its ends.

DailyMail

Enjoy !

The good news is that it's Daily Mail reporting on it
 
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