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More insanity from Sweden:
Swedish city to offer returning Isis fighters housing and benefits in reintegration programme
Why not just keep them out of country and not let them back in?

And Zoidberg, this time you don't have the "Daily Mail" excuse to hide behind ...

And in Germany, those harmless Syrian "refugees" (government did not confirm, but look at the timeline).
Syrian Arrested On War Crimes Charges

Danke Merkel!
CP6RjAlWoAEuF1m.jpg:large

Als ob!
 
More diversity in Birmingham;

A Muslim teenager has received death threats after she was filmed twerking in a busy city centre while wearing the hijab.
The girl, believed to be 17, was caught on camera as she danced provocatively with a friend and a street performer in front of a crowd in Birmingham. The short clip was posted on social media and has since gone viral, sparking widespread criticism from other members of the Muslim community who branded her a 'f****** s***'. One wrote: 'Stupid b**** needs to be killed.' The girl later publicly apologised for her actions in a YouTube interview, saying she had 'disrespected' the religious veil.

DailyMail

Hilarious !
 
More insanity from Sweden:
Swedish city to offer returning Isis fighters housing and benefits in reintegration programme
Why not just keep them out of country and not let them back in?

A couple of reasons:

1) Swedish law apply within Swedish borders. When Swedes go and join in in a war in a contested territory there's no clear jurisdiction. Like it or not, in a free society we need to allow our citizens to express their freedom. Sometimes that freedom isn't expressed in the way we want it to. As it is now, legally it's pretty clear. We can't prevent them from returning.

2) We don't want to start a precedent where we think Swedish laws should apply in other countries, because that could quickly lead to various dictatorships arguing that they have jurisdiction over their citizen within Sweden. We want to avoid that situation. Iranians for instance can't give up their citizenship. Your always Iranian for life. This is legally complicated and we don't want to get sucked into something which might lead to us losing sovereignty in our own country.

3) Sweden is a welfare state. These ex-ISIS fighters aren't getting anything that any Swede wouldn't get. The money that pays for this programme pays for ex-Jihadis deconverts, who now work for the Swedish government to contact these young men and try to get them to leave their radical ideas. We've done the same thing with neo-Nazis, and it's been successful. These ex-Jihadi deconverts aren't just any guy off the street. They're trained for this, and they need to be. This is a copy of a Danish programme which, wasn't a super success. But it did more good than harm at least. But the money isn't going straight to the kids or paying for apartment and stuff. That's a misrepresentation of how the funds are used.

4) The whole point of the Danish programme is that once the returned ex-Jihadis start opening up and drop their extremist values, they'll in turn start deconverting other Jihadis. And that's free. Won't cost the Swedish government a penny. That's exactly how the Swedish ex-Neo Nazi programme has worked. And that's worked great. That's been going for 30+ years now. Still going strong. Based on other social tools, these programmes are very cheap to run. Compare that with the cost of harassing them with the police and locking them up. That's very expensive, has a lousy success rate, as well as legally iffy.

5) Psychology. Young men can easily get caught up in extremist ideologies. Often very angry who feel isolated and marginalized. We know the psychological mechanics well of how people become radicalized. We'd be stupid not to use that knowledge to try to catch them before they get sucked into it. And to do that we need deconverts working for "us". And that needs a tiny little investment.
 
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Consider my three points. I am not for banning immigration by Muslims in general, but there need to be reasonable standards regarding numbers, what kind of people you let immigrate and a way to get rid of criminals. Why these three points should be in any way controversial is baffling to me.

Because you're being a duplicitous twat, Derec. What you're doing is no different than when white supremacists claim that they simply want "reasonable immigration policies," and then start linking to hate site after hate site, or start cataloguing every crime committed by a latino and posting racist propaganda about a Hispanic takeover of the U.S., all the while acting puzzled when people call them racists. And while it wouldn't surprise me at all if you hold such moronic views, you're far less aggressive in broadcasting them than you are in this case, because you know you have a better chance of getting away with demonizing Muslims on an atheist board.

As to "taking over one town at a time", that's just a consequence of mass migration. When you let in a huge number of people in from a very different culture there is not much pressure to integrate - because there are so many of them they can form parallel societies. They do not settle uniformly, but congregate such that they form local majorities while still having relatively low population numbers overall. Hence, taking over one town at a time. Many parts of major European cities (like Rickeby/Little Mogadishu in Stockholm) are already taken over by Islam.

No it isn't, and no, they're not. You are blowing shit entirely out of proportion to suit your agenda. There is no Muslim takeover of Europe. That lots of Muslims have immigrated, congregated in certain areas and some of those communities have problems is not evidence that Muslims are "taking over." That's fearmongering codswallop that you buy into because it conforms to your worldview, not because it's what the evidence suggests.

This is just a consequence of mass migration coupled with high birth rates. Their population share keeps increasing, and will keep increasing. If you extrapolate, they will become majority in Europe in a few decades, unless there is a major policy change or they start giving up Islam en masse (unlikely with them forming parallel societies rather than integrating).

That's not how demographic trends work. There are no credible projections showing Muslims becoming a majority in Europe in the near future, or anything close to a majority. It's a fucking fantasy, again a product of your warped version of reality, not anything resembling evidence.

Sharia patrols are also a real thing. For example the UK one even has it's own wiki page:  Sharia patrols
There are also such patrols (calling themselves "police") in Wuppertal, Germany: German court acquits 'Sharia Police' in Wuppertal

I'm aware that there are people, mostly young Muslim men, who have attempted such "patrols;" the fact that they were reined in by the authorities is indication that the Muslim "takeover" you keep screaming chicken little over isn't happening. Problematic for people living in the immediate area? Certainly, but not evidence of this apocalyptic neo-caliphate end times scenario you've built in your echo chamber of a mind.

Extremist/fundamentalist Muslims are innately incompatible with Western societies and should not be allowed to immigrate at all, much less in large numbers. When you have a mass, chaotic influx of migrants there is no way to check people for compatibility with Western values. Thus, many people incompatible with those values will end up coming in. That is especially true when they tend to come from areas where Islamic fundamentalism is a majority position (or in case of Afghanistan, almost universal position).

Regarding your tired talking points about fundamentalism: while I agree it's something we don't need more of, it's utterly impossible to screen for, since anyone can claim to believe anything at any time. All you can verify is their nationality and appearance, which, in reality, is what you'd clearly like to turn people away based on. And that makes you a fucking bigot; but worst of all, you don't even seem to recognize it.

Besides, if you were so concerned about "Western values," and people who are antithetical to them, then you'd spend your time complaining about the tens, even hundreds of millions of people who support lunatics like Donald Trump, Geert Wilders and Marine le Pen. Yet we hear nary a peep out of you about that. We all know why: it's much easier, and more satisfying for you, to fixate on the single-digit percentage of the population who belongs to the one demographic that's still an open target in public discourse.

You are proving my point that the only thing you have are insults and name-calling.

Look, you can hide behind the "warpoet is a meanie" defense if you want. But the fact of the matter is you've left a long enough trail of bigoted rhetoric, propaganda and hyperbole on this board to make any attempt at shaking off the accusation of bigotry pointless. You've gotten away with it, primarily because of the board's atheist userbase and increasingly relaxed moderation. But it is what it is and people are going to call you out on it.

And even if you had better arguments than the ones you present ad nauseam in thread after thread, your credibility is undercut by the fact that you waste all your free time on this board stewing over wildly exaggerated problems that have no fucking affect on your daily life to begin with, even though close to 100% of the users here think you're an idiot. So why don't you take this hogwash to one of the countless hate sites where people think like you do, or just go find a more productive hobby, like building model airplanes or collecting stamps or some shit?
 
More insanity from Sweden:
Swedish city to offer returning Isis fighters housing and benefits in reintegration programme
Why not just keep them out of country and not let them back in?

A couple of reasons:

1) Swedish law apply within Swedish borders. When Swedes go and join in in a war in a contested territory there's no clear jurisdiction. Like it or not, in a free society we need to allow our citizens to express their freedom. Sometimes that freedom isn't expressed in the way we want it to. As it is now, legally it's pretty clear. We can't prevent them from returning.

2) We don't want to start a precedent where we think Swedish laws should apply in other countries, because that could quickly lead to various dictatorships arguing that they have jurisdiction over their citizen within Sweden. We want to avoid that situation. Iranians for instance can't give up their citizenship. Your always Iranian for life. This is legally complicated and we don't want to get sucked into something which might lead to us losing sovereignty in our own country.

3) Sweden is a welfare state. These ex-ISIS fighters aren't getting anything that any Swede wouldn't get. The money that pays for this programme pays for ex-Jihadis deconverts, who now work for the Swedish government to contact these young men and try to get them to leave their radical ideas. We've done the same thing with neo-Nazis, and it's been successful. These ex-Jihadi deconverts aren't just any guy off the street. They're trained for this, and they need to be. This is a copy of a Danish programme which, wasn't a super success. But it did more good than harm at least. But the money isn't going straight to the kids or paying for apartment and stuff. That's a misrepresentation of how the funds are used.

4) The whole point of the Danish programme is that once the returned ex-Jihadis start opening up and drop their extremist values, they'll in turn start deconverting other Jihadis. And that's free. Won't cost the Swedish government a penny. That's exactly how the Swedish ex-Neo Nazi programme has worked. And that's worked great. That's been going for 30+ years now. Still going strong. Based on other social tools, these programmes are very cheap to run. Compare that with the cost of harassing them with the police and locking them up. That's very expensive, has a lousy success rate, as well as legally iffy.

5) Psychology. Young men can easily get caught up in extremist ideologies. Often very angry who feel isolated and marginalized. We know the psychological mechanics well of how people become radicalized. We'd be stupid not to use that knowledge to try to catch them before they get sucked into it. And to do that we need deconverts working for "us". And that needs a tiny little investment.

If they are ISIS fighters for sure, Sweden doesn't have to let them in.
 
More diversity in Birmingham;

A Muslim teenager has received death threats after she was filmed twerking in a busy city centre while wearing the hijab.
The girl, believed to be 17, was caught on camera as she danced provocatively with a friend and a street performer in front of a crowd in Birmingham. The short clip was posted on social media and has since gone viral, sparking widespread criticism from other members of the Muslim community who branded her a 'f****** s***'. One wrote: 'Stupid b**** needs to be killed.' The girl later publicly apologised for her actions in a YouTube interview, saying she had 'disrespected' the religious veil.

DailyMail

Hilarious !

In Lebanon, this sort of thing is okay and no one bothers. Inhibitions and compulsions about anything remotely to do with sex possess the minds of religious fanatics more than religion itself.
 
If they are ISIS fighters for sure, Sweden doesn't have to let them in.

Ok, keep going. How are you going to, legally, keep them out? Here's an article on attempts to do it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/...its-prompt-laws-against-foreign-fighters.html

Keeping them out requires creative judicial juggling. In Britain is it's illegal to "aid terrorism" and the war in Syria is seen as doing that. But is it? Is fighting for ISIS in Syria, by definition, "aiding terrorism". As the article points out, there's a case in Britain right now where 50 Brits entered Syria and "joined a terrorist organisation". Not for killing people, or joining a war. Simply for joining an organisation on the UN list of terror organisations. ISIS has zero incentive to cooperate with the British authorities. This is problematic to prove. In this case laws are a pretty blunt instrument, and in a modern democratic state, where people have stuff like rights, it can be a bit too blunt.

When dealing with any social problem society has carrots and sticks. If the sticks are easy to dodge, that leaves only carrots.
 
I know you are not going to admit that Europe (not Sweden) and particularly Germany is changing their stance on this problem. Germany plans to deport half of the people.

You're mixing things. What Europe (well, the west really) is experiencing is a wave of populist right wing political parties who's rise has been going for 20 years now. Way longer than the war in Syria.

These populists are willing to say anything to scare people. Sweden and Germany changing stances doesn't mean that change in stance is rational. Trump in USA got elected. Brexit for UK. It's pretty clear that none of their voters had a clue what they were voting about. The anti-Brexit votors were voting about receiving less Syrian refugees. But that wasn't what the election was about. These people are clearly idiots.

I personally think that the rise of the alt right is purely a product of the Internet. Social media has diverted people's attention away from traditional media. So now the information the majority of people consume are not produced by well educated people who know what they're talking about. Today people are mostly being informed by sensationalist click-bait.

Just now Derec compared the New York Times with Jihadwatch. The former is traditional media with high journalistic standards who check and verify every detail of what they publish. Jihadwatch will publish any rumour or fantasy as long as it conforms to their world view. I wouldn't be surprised if Jihadwatch is written by bots. Most click-bait on-line publications are. This is the difference between old and new media. And it's the new media that has given rise to the alt right. Anyhoo.. that's my personal theory on what this is about.

And the Syrian refugees had the bad luck of arriving in the middle of this.

You have just said that more than half the people who see the world a little different to you are all idiots. Congratulations for denigrating more than half the Western World's population!
 
You have just said that more than half the people who see the world a little different to you are all idiots. Congratulations for denigrating more than half the Western World's population!

I called the people who thought the Brexit vote was about Syrian refugees, idiots. If you're going to vote in any election, it's good to learn what you're voting about before casting your vote. If you can't be arsed to do that but still want to vote, then Sir, you would be an idiot. As many of them clearly are.

Based on the debates going on now in England it's highly unclear that most Brits want to leave the EU.
 
You have just said that more than half the people who see the world a little different to you are all idiots. Congratulations for denigrating more than half the Western World's population!

I called the people who thought the Brexit vote was about Syrian refugees, idiots. If you're going to vote in any election, it's good to learn what you're voting about before casting your vote. If you can't be arsed to do that but still want to vote, then Sir, you would be an idiot. As many of them clearly are.

Based on the debates going on now in England it's highly unclear that most Brits want to leave the EU.

The BREXIT is in part against globalization immigration, trade and wishing to manage its own legal system. I don't think the current government will do much about immigration even after BREXIT so this will be a problem.

- - - Updated - - -

If they are ISIS fighters for sure, Sweden doesn't have to let them in.

Ok, keep going. How are you going to, legally, keep them out? Here's an article on attempts to do it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/...its-prompt-laws-against-foreign-fighters.html

Keeping them out requires creative judicial juggling. In Britain is it's illegal to "aid terrorism" and the war in Syria is seen as doing that. But is it? Is fighting for ISIS in Syria, by definition, "aiding terrorism". As the article points out, there's a case in Britain right now where 50 Brits entered Syria and "joined a terrorist organisation". Not for killing people, or joining a war. Simply for joining an organisation on the UN list of terror organisations. ISIS has zero incentive to cooperate with the British authorities. This is problematic to prove. In this case laws are a pretty blunt instrument, and in a modern democratic state, where people have stuff like rights, it can be a bit too blunt.

When dealing with any social problem society has carrots and sticks. If the sticks are easy to dodge, that leaves only carrots.

The initial terrorists who set the ball rolling are the US, UK and others. Nonetheless the plan is to attack Europe so our measures should be designed to stop this.
The Black Flag from Rome (I understand from ISIS) talks about ISIS infiltrating left wing and civil rights groups as the first step of taking over a country.
 
The initial terrorists who set the ball rolling are the US, UK and others. Nonetheless the plan is to attack Europe so our measures should be designed to stop this.
The Black Flag from Rome (I understand from ISIS) talks about ISIS infiltrating left wing and civil rights groups as the first step of taking over a country.

What does any of that have to do with legal juggling of paragraphs to stop them returning? Nobody is disputing that we should try to stop terrorist attacks. What we're discussing is methods to do this within western legal systems. It seems pretty clear that whatever law we put into place in order to stop IS fighters returning will be extremely easy to dodge.

We can't just scrap our legal system and throw whoever we suspect in jail willy nilly, or revoke their passports. I think we all agree that we want to maintain due process.

I think you and me are having two very different discussions. You're arguing as if the legal aspect is simple and it's only a matter of making our mind up about it. But since stopping them returning doesn't seem to be an option, the question then arises what we're going to do about it.
 
So, this is related enough to be posted here. It is from The Rebel a right wing news organization from Canada run by a Ezra Levant. The real alt right (not what Milo tried to hijack) really hates it as you can see from the caustic comments, some of which I agree with.




---------------------------------

Also, has anyone brought up the book "The Camp of the Saints"?

Seems relevant to the ideology involved.
 
So, this is related enough to be posted here. It is from The Rebel a right wing news organization from Canada run by a Ezra Levant. The real alt right (not what Milo tried to hijack) really hates it as you can see from the caustic comments, some of which I agree with.




---------------------------------

Also, has anyone brought up the book "The Camp of the Saints"?

Seems relevant to the ideology involved.


Rebel media are neocons in everything but name. Right down to the advocacy and justification of Israeli expansionism.

The only reason they ditch the alt-right label now is because the bottom has fallen out and the term has exhausted its usefulness.
 
If they are ISIS fighters for sure, Sweden doesn't have to let them in.

Ok, keep going. How are you going to, legally, keep them out? Here's an article on attempts to do it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/...its-prompt-laws-against-foreign-fighters.html

Keeping them out requires creative judicial juggling. In Britain is it's illegal to "aid terrorism" and the war in Syria is seen as doing that. But is it? Is fighting for ISIS in Syria, by definition, "aiding terrorism". As the article points out, there's a case in Britain right now where 50 Brits entered Syria and "joined a terrorist organisation". Not for killing people, or joining a war. Simply for joining an organisation on the UN list of terror organisations. ISIS has zero incentive to cooperate with the British authorities. This is problematic to prove. In this case laws are a pretty blunt instrument, and in a modern democratic state, where people have stuff like rights, it can be a bit too blunt.

When dealing with any social problem society has carrots and sticks. If the sticks are easy to dodge, that leaves only carrots.

We have a better approach--taking up arms hostile to the US can strip someone of citizenship. (We make an exception for a dual citizen subject to mandatory service, though.)
 
Ok, keep going. How are you going to, legally, keep them out? Here's an article on attempts to do it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/...its-prompt-laws-against-foreign-fighters.html

Keeping them out requires creative judicial juggling. In Britain is it's illegal to "aid terrorism" and the war in Syria is seen as doing that. But is it? Is fighting for ISIS in Syria, by definition, "aiding terrorism". As the article points out, there's a case in Britain right now where 50 Brits entered Syria and "joined a terrorist organisation". Not for killing people, or joining a war. Simply for joining an organisation on the UN list of terror organisations. ISIS has zero incentive to cooperate with the British authorities. This is problematic to prove. In this case laws are a pretty blunt instrument, and in a modern democratic state, where people have stuff like rights, it can be a bit too blunt.

When dealing with any social problem society has carrots and sticks. If the sticks are easy to dodge, that leaves only carrots.

We have a better approach--taking up arms hostile to the US can strip someone of citizenship. (We make an exception for a dual citizen subject to mandatory service, though.)

Citizenship is a right, not a privilege. Are you even aware of the authoritarian implications of what you just said?
 
We have a better approach--taking up arms hostile to the US can strip someone of citizenship. (We make an exception for a dual citizen subject to mandatory service, though.)

Citizenship is a right, not a privilege. Are you even aware of the authoritarian implications of what you just said?

The US for instance has no duty to give citizenship to anyone who asks for it. However, citizenship is a right for someone who is born a citizen. Nonetheless the passport is the property of the US (or particular government).

My own British Passport states

This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's government in the United Kingdom and may be withdrawn at any time. This also protects British citizens abroad where employers sometimes want to take it and retain it in a file.
 
What does any of that have to do with legal juggling of paragraphs to stop them returning? Nobody is disputing that we should try to stop terrorist attacks. What we're discussing is methods to do this within western legal systems. It seems pretty clear that whatever law we put into place in order to stop IS fighters returning will be extremely easy to dodge.
Dodge this!
predator-firing-missile_preview.jpg

Worked quite well for Anwar Al-Alwaki and Jude (ironic name for a jihadist!) Kenan Mohammed et al.

It is certainly better than letting them back in and rolling out the red carpet.

We can't just scrap our legal system and throw whoever we suspect in jail willy nilly, or revoke their passports. I think we all agree that we want to maintain due process.
Why should the West not be able to revoke (or at least suspend) passports of known jihadists?

But since stopping them returning doesn't seem to be an option, the question then arises what we're going to do about it.
Why not?
 
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