Europe submits voluntarily

[whichphilosophy]

LOL. Looks like Europe finally realized that gullibility is not a virtue.

It will all end in tears.

Its only posturing to impress the voters. The migrants will still keep coming until the borders are restored. By then whole parts of Africa and Pakistan will have been emptied into Europe.
We need help the Syrian refugees as the war is a result of instigation by the US and some European states.
As for others there is simply no room or unlimited resources. to deal with them.

 

[TSwizzle]

We need help the Syrian refugees as the war is a result of instigation by the US and some European states.
As for others there is simply no room or unlimited resources. to deal with them.

Most of them are not refugees so nobody is obliged.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, it's a lot easier to get around China than most third world places and the prices are cheap.

In Shanghai, bus fare is generally 33 cents, a connecting bus is 16 cents if you use the wireless payment cards. (This is implemented as a discount when you take another bus within a certain time period so it only works if the system knows you took both buses.) I believe the longest subway runs get to something over a dollar, all the within-the-city subway trips we have taken are 50 cents.

Taxis are also very cheap compared to Europe. I haven't been to China since 2009 but the fares were 2.00 or 2.50 RMB per km Travelling 6km to the office was only US$4.00.00

I definitely agree. I didn't mention taxis because the poor aren't going to get around by taxi anyway.

IIRC the latest fares in Shanghai: The initial is just over $2 and gets IIRC 3 km. I'm not managing to remember the cost per km past that, though. With 4 people taxis are often little more than the bus.

 

[whichphilosophy]

We need help the Syrian refugees as the war is a result of instigation by the US and some European states.
As for others there is simply no room or unlimited resources. to deal with them.

Most of them are not refugees so nobody is obliged.

Agreed, non refugees yes like economic migrants from Bangladesh and India (per discarded ID cards found in Hungary plus a hand book for migrants).
However the US and some European countries have created wars in Iraq Libya and Syria that made things worse. There were very few refugees from these countries before this war started

Europe's insane borderless policies have been proven to be a farce.

- - - Updated - - -

Taxis are also very cheap compared to Europe. I haven't been to China since 2009 but the fares were 2.00 or 2.50 RMB per km Travelling 6km to the office was only US$4.00.00

I definitely agree. I didn't mention taxis because the poor aren't going to get around by taxi anyway.

IIRC the latest fares in Shanghai: The initial is just over $2 and gets IIRC 3 km. I'm not managing to remember the cost per km past that, though. With 4 people taxis are often little more than the bus.

In China 4 people in a taxi can mean 5 or 6.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The World is a complex.

Simple solutions, however emotionally satisfying, sometimes may cause more problems than they solve.

That's all I've got to say on the subject.

The West's simple solutions did not address the complexity of the inevitable fall out it created

 

[untermensche]

When you say "The World is a complex". It is not "The World". It is people. When people are separated they tend to move in different directions and create different cultures, sometimes even cultures that don't understand one another. This can lead to fear and hostility.

Humans are in some ways complex and in some ways understandable.

Like if there is something valuable, like oil, some humans will fight over the control of it.

That is what the US did when it invaded Iraq and what ISIS is doing now.

 

[whichphilosophy]

When you say "The World is a complex". It is not "The World". It is people. When people are separated they tend to move in different directions and create different cultures, sometimes even cultures that don't understand one another. This can lead to fear and hostility.

Humans are in some ways complex and in some ways understandable.

Like if there is something valuable, like oil, some humans will fight over the control of it.

That is what the US did when it invaded Iraq and what ISIS is doing now.

The majority of people seem to be economic migrants. Nowadays most countries except Europe have secure borders. The refugees of course from Syria are caused by the US and some Europeans who are trying to change the government, but have left chaos and a vacuum for extremists to take over. You may like George Galloway's talks on YOUTUBE regarding this.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most of them are not refugees so nobody is obliged.

Agreed, non refugees yes like economic migrants from Bangladesh and India (per discarded ID cards found in Hungary plus a hand book for migrants).
However the US and some European countries have created wars in Iraq Libya and Syria that made things worse. There were very few refugees from these countries before this war started

Libya: It was turning into a genocide, we intervened to stop that. Now what we are seeing is moderates vs Islamists.

Iraq: Islamists vs moderates and Islamists vs Islamists.

Syria: Partially still a genocide, partially Islamists vs moderates.

Note the common element??

In China 4 people in a taxi can mean 5 or 6.

Maybe if there were some kids. Most Chinese taxis couldn't even fit 4 of me. (I'm not fat but I am 6' tall.)

 

[DBT]

When you say "The World is a complex". It is not "The World". It is people.

People are not separate from the ''World''

Being inseparable from the World, the environment, the land and sea and their resources, my remark was related to human activity in relation to the environment and its resources: the World.

When people are separated they tend to move in different directions and create different cultures, sometimes even cultures that don't understand one another. This can lead to fear and hostility.

Humans are in some ways complex and in some ways understandable.

Like if there is something valuable, like oil, some humans will fight over the control of it.

That is what the US did when it invaded Iraq and what ISIS is doing now.

Yes. In this case, mass migration, there are people who's homeland has become either physically dangerous (war) or economically non sustainable for high percentage of its inhabitants, consequently they feel the need to leave their homeland and move elsewhere, somewhere they feel will better provide them with their needs and wants.

 

[untermensche]

People are not separate from the ''World''

Being inseparable from the World, the environment, the land and sea and their resources, my remark was related to human activity in relation to the environment and its resources: the World.

You can revel in imprecision if you want to.

But this is about people and the things people do. Not "The World", some abstract concept that differs between individuals.

When people are separated they tend to move in different directions and create different cultures, sometimes even cultures that don't understand one another. This can lead to fear and hostility.

Humans are in some ways complex and in some ways understandable.

Like if there is something valuable, like oil, some humans will fight over the control of it.

That is what the US did when it invaded Iraq and what ISIS is doing now.

Yes. In this case, mass migration, there are people who's homeland has become either physically dangerous (war) or economically non sustainable for high percentage of its inhabitants, consequently they feel the need to leave their homeland and move elsewhere, somewhere they feel will better provide them with their needs and wants.

It is the desire and means to enrich oneself that has led to all this inequality and exploitation, and desire to control valuable resources.

That is at the root of all of this. Systems that turn human greed into a power capable of exploiting others for personal gain. We should be creating systems that prevent this.

 

[Jokodo]

And for a long time they were. It was in multicultural Syria that the ancient Greek texts were translated into Arabic, and in multicultural Andalusia they were translated into Latin. We probably wouldn't know about them otherwise.

And even today, you give me Syria and I raise you Switzerland.

The revisionist history of the Islamic conquests and Caliphates is a bit of a joke. Sure there were non-Muslims who lived in these lands - the Dhimmi. And they were officially second-class citizens, who if they did not pay the Jizya (or convert) could be put to death. I simply don't share your view that subjugating European non-Muslim peoples to the beneficence of Sharia is a great idea.

I do not hold the view that "subjugating European non-Muslim peoples to the beneficence of Sharia is a great idea", so we are in agreement there.

It's not going to happen anyway.

The difference between you and me is that I don't think that letting people die to the beneficience of keeping Europe Muslimrein is a good idea.

You don't seem to have a problem with that.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Agreed, non refugees yes like economic migrants from Bangladesh and India (per discarded ID cards found in Hungary plus a hand book for migrants).
However the US and some European countries have created wars in Iraq Libya and Syria that made things worse. There were very few refugees from these countries before this war started

Libya: It was turning into a genocide, we intervened to stop that. Now what we are seeing is moderates vs Islamists.

Iraq: Islamists vs moderates and Islamists vs Islamists.

Syria: Partially still a genocide, partially Islamists vs moderates.

Note the common element??

In China 4 people in a taxi can mean 5 or 6.

Maybe if there were some kids. Most Chinese taxis couldn't even fit 4 of me. (I'm not fat but I am 6' tall.)

Libya: We intervened and made it worse. After the lynch mobs we paid for killed Gaddafi they turned on each other Now there are five main groups and dozens of militias in each area. Oil production is down and Christians are being wiped out.

Iraq: This is now a fragmented country at war. Now also Christians and others are being wiped out.

Syria: Now it is a slaughterhouse with millions fleeing. Christians are being systematically wipe out. Assyrian architecture has been destroyed by ISIS

ISIS has now claimed it will now send Islamists to Europe (given it has no borders). Even a few in each country is enough to cause chaos).



I've seen 3 Brits from my employer in HK some years ago over 6 foot squeeze into one of the small taxis (1.60 RMB which no longer exist) One smaller one sat in the front

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Libya: We intervened and made it worse. After the lynch mobs we paid for killed Gaddafi they turned on each other Now there are five main groups and dozens of militias in each area. Oil production is down and Christians are being wiped out.

Iraq: This is now a fragmented country at war. Now also Christians and others are being wiped out.

Neither of which is rebutting the fact that it's the Islamists that are causing the problems.

Syria: Now it is a slaughterhouse with millions fleeing. Christians are being systematically wipe out. Assyrian architecture has been destroyed by ISIS

And we didn't cause it.

ISIS has now claimed it will now send Islamists to Europe (given it has no borders). Even a few in each country is enough to cause chaos).

I hope it doesn't reach the point the gloves come off.

I've seen 3 Brits from my employer in HK some years ago over 6 foot squeeze into one of the small taxis (1.60 RMB which no longer exist) One smaller one sat in the front

Three, yes.

 

[DBT]

You can revel in imprecision if you want to.

But this is about people and the things people do. Not "The World", some abstract concept that differs between individuals.

Not revelling in anything. Just responding to your remark, which prompted an explanation of what I meant by 'world' - as in human activity.

The 'world' as I used the word is about people and their relationships, nation states, culture, religion, threats, needs, desires, wants, etc.

When people are separated they tend to move in different directions and create different cultures, sometimes even cultures that don't understand one another. This can lead to fear and hostility.

Yes.

Humans are in some ways complex and in some ways understandable.

Like if there is something valuable, like oil, some humans will fight over the control of it.

That is what the US did when it invaded Iraq and what ISIS is doing now.

Of course.

It is the desire and means to enrich oneself that has led to all this inequality and exploitation, and desire to control valuable resources.

That is at the root of all of this. Systems that turn human greed into a power capable of exploiting others for personal gain. We should be creating systems that prevent this.

True, but it also goes further in terms of divisions, different beliefs, whether political, cultural or religious. 'Self'' and ''other.''

'Self' being whatever one happens to identify with, nation, religion, way of life.....which may be seen to be under threat by the 'foreigner' the 'other' - those who have different values and a different way of life.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Neither of which is rebutting the fact that it's the Islamists that are causing the problems.

Syria: Now it is a slaughterhouse with millions fleeing. Christians are being systematically wipe out. Assyrian architecture has been destroyed by ISIS

And we didn't cause it.

ISIS has now claimed it will now send Islamists to Europe (given it has no borders). Even a few in each country is enough to cause chaos).

I hope it doesn't reach the point the gloves come off.

I've seen 3 Brits from my employer in HK some years ago over 6 foot squeeze into one of the small taxis (1.60 RMB which no longer exist) One smaller one sat in the front

Three, yes.

Of course the Jihadists are responsible for their own actions (even if they say God told them to do these) but if a person lets some wild dogs off their leashes, he would be responsible for the injuries they cause to each other. The dictatorships kept these fanatics under control. By removing these dictatorships the fanatics are now out of control.

My error, this was one of the old smaller HK taxis in1993. This was still the size of a Beijing 1.60 RMb taxr. One carryied an early laptop with a docking station and one briefcase and the other two a briefcase each from Tuen Mun to Causeway Bay.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Libya: We intervened and made it worse. After the lynch mobs we paid for killed Gaddafi they turned on each other Now there are five main groups and dozens of militias in each area. Oil production is down and Christians are being wiped out.

Are you high? What could possibly be worse than a country with Gaddafi in power?

Iraq: This is now a fragmented country at war. Now also Christians and others are being wiped out.

Still a stretch to say that Iraq under Saddam was better. That guy was a psychopath. A real sick fuck.

ISIS has now claimed it will now send Islamists to Europe (given it has no borders). Even a few in each country is enough to cause chaos)

LOL. I wish them luck. I'm pretty sure it'll fail and we in Europe won't even notice

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Neither of which is rebutting the fact that it's the Islamists that are causing the problems.



And we didn't cause it.

ISIS has now claimed it will now send Islamists to Europe (given it has no borders). Even a few in each country is enough to cause chaos).

I hope it doesn't reach the point the gloves come off.

I've seen 3 Brits from my employer in HK some years ago over 6 foot squeeze into one of the small taxis (1.60 RMB which no longer exist) One smaller one sat in the front

Three, yes.

Of course the Jihadists are responsible for their own actions (even if they say God told them to do these) but if a person lets some wild dogs off their leashes, he would be responsible for the injuries they cause to each other. The dictatorships kept these fanatics under control. By removing these dictatorships the fanatics are now out of control.

Wild dogs are animals, not responsible for their actions.

You are in effect saying that ISIS is also animals, not people.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Neither of which is rebutting the fact that it's the Islamists that are causing the problems.



And we didn't cause it.

ISIS has now claimed it will now send Islamists to Europe (given it has no borders). Even a few in each country is enough to cause chaos).

I hope it doesn't reach the point the gloves come off.

I've seen 3 Brits from my employer in HK some years ago over 6 foot squeeze into one of the small taxis (1.60 RMB which no longer exist) One smaller one sat in the front

Three, yes.

Of course the Jihadists are responsible for their own actions (even if they say God told them to do these) but if a person lets some wild dogs off their leashes, he would be responsible for the injuries they cause to each other. The dictatorships kept these fanatics under control. By removing these dictatorships the fanatics are now out of control.

Wild dogs are animals, not responsible for their actions.

You are in effect saying that ISIS is also animals, not people.

Wild dogs is a figure of speech to reflect their mentality.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you high? What could possibly be worse than a country with Gaddafi in power?

Iraq: This is now a fragmented country at war. Now also Christians and others are being wiped out.

Still a stretch to say that Iraq under Saddam was better. That guy was a psychopath. A real sick fuck.

ISIS has now claimed it will now send Islamists to Europe (given it has no borders). Even a few in each country is enough to cause chaos)

LOL. I wish them luck. I'm pretty sure it'll fail and we in Europe won't even notice

LIBYA
Living in any African country could have been classed worse than Libya. Check the WHO report here
http://www.who.int/countryfocus/cooperation_strategy/ccsbrief_lby_en.pdf

https://globalciviliansforpeace.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-standard-of-living-in-libya/
Confirmed by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), undernourishment was less than 5 %, with a daily per capita calorie intake of 3144 calories. (FAO caloric intake figures indicate availability rather than consumption).
The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya provided to its citizens what is denied to many Americans: Free public health care, free education, as confirmed by WHO and UNESCO data.
According to the World Health Organization (WHO): Life expectancy at birth was 72.3 years (2009), among the highest in the developing World. END OF QUOTE
So while Gaddafi was never on a short list for the Nobel prize the replacement scenario is much worse.

SADDAM
No doubt he was as you said. Nonetheless for many years, he was a friend of the West and Germany sold him the Gas for the Kurds and the weapons to attack Iran. Now it’s even worse especially for the Christians

ISIS
The Philippines police discovered the 9/11 plot many years before it happened and the US did not respond. So while ISIS is not capable of doing what it claims it can, let’s not underestimate the havoc a handful of people can cause is a plane to crash into a building or kill dozens with a single detonation.

 

[Jokodo]

ISIS
The Philippines police discovered the 9/11 plot many years before it happened and the US did not respond. So while ISIS is not capable of doing what it claims it can, let’s not underestimate the havoc a handful of people can cause is a plane to crash into a building or kill dozens with a single detonation.

ISIS already has more than a handful of sympathisers throughout Europe. It has thousands of sympathisers with European passports, hundreds of "white" Europeans with mainstream "European" names - converts. If they want to cause havoc in Europe, they could do so right now. The fact that they haven't shows us that they have other priorities - to motivate anyone who can be so motivated to fight with them on the ground in Syria and Iraq.

Smuggling in fighters with the refugees makes no strategic sense for ISIS, none whatsoever. Why would thy put fighters through the ordeal of a week-long journey with an uncertain outcome? Why would they risk that their fighters are grassed on by other refugees? When they could simply put them on a plane from Istanbul to Frankfurt, Paris, or London?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wild dogs are animals, not responsible for their actions.

You are in effect saying that ISIS is also animals, not people.

Wild dogs is a figure of speech to reflect their mentality.

Which is not a rebuttal at all. You're calling them animals.

Living in any African country could have been classed worse than Libya. Check the WHO report here
http://www.who.int/countryfocus/cooperation_strategy/ccsbrief_lby_en.pdf

https://globalciviliansforpeace.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-standard-of-living-in-libya/
Confirmed by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), undernourishment was less than 5 %, with a daily per capita calorie intake of 3144 calories. (FAO caloric intake figures indicate availability rather than consumption).
The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya provided to its citizens what is denied to many Americans: Free public health care, free education, as confirmed by WHO and UNESCO data.
According to the World Health Organization (WHO): Life expectancy at birth was 72.3 years (2009), among the highest in the developing World. END OF QUOTE
So while Gaddafi was never on a short list for the Nobel prize the replacement scenario is much worse.

The data you cite isn't relevant as it didn't reflect the situation at the time we decided to intervene. The Arab "Spring" movement had reached Libya, the rebels were threatening the country and Gaddafi was resorting to some pretty brutal things, bringing in outsiders because the army couldn't be counted on to carry out the orders against their own population. Past figures of nutritional levels has no bearing on whether the bullets are coming in now.

We stopped his brutality against his own people, his government fell. As with all the Arab "Spring" movements it was subverted by the Islamists.

SADDAM
No doubt he was as you said. Nonetheless for many years, he was a friend of the West and Germany sold him the Gas for the Kurds and the weapons to attack Iran. Now it’s even worse especially for the Christians

Irrelevant to the fact that the current problems are Sunni/Shia fighting.

The Philippines police discovered the 9/11 plot many years before it happened and the US did not respond. So while ISIS is not capable of doing what it claims it can, let’s not underestimate the havoc a handful of people can cause is a plane to crash into a building or kill dozens with a single detonation.

The Philippines police found a plot to bomb airliners. That's not the same as a plot to use them as kamikazes.