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Europe submits voluntarily

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The same people said the same in Europe the entire 19'th century. It took over a hundred years of carnage and instability before democracy. Both Napoleon and Hitler were the results of Enlightenment ideas of freedom and democracy. Sometimes the successful road isn't a straight line. The mess in the Middle-East is not even close to the mess we had in Europe when we were trying to democratise. The transitional systems that were the most successful ended up being the step-by-step democratisation processes. Every step of the way created a new stable system of government. This is what happened in Sweden and England. In Sweden we were on the brink of communist take-over for a bit less than a hundred years. This constant pressure of socialists created a slow evolution of moving power further and further down the ladder until we had full democracy. In the UK it was a fear of becoming France 2. A constant pressure of social unrest. None of these processes were smooth or pretty. But these are among the smoothest and prettiest.

I wouldn't call it a fiasco by a long shot. Monarchs/dictators in Europe who refused to budge and be a part of the step-by-step reforms were all toppled by violent revolution. France, Russia, Spain. The result of these were total and absolute carnage. This is what happened to Iraq, Syria and Libya. The problem wasn't western intervention. The problem was Saddam, Assad and Gaddafi. And we shouldn't take the blame for it. This is what democratisation looks like. It ain't pretty. It's rarely pretty .

Not all changes are violent. The problems in Iraq Syria and Libya stem directly from Western intervention regardless of who was there and the resulting deaths through war and starvation which have now surpassed one million.
What a dog's dinner they made of those countries.

Ehe.... wut? How do you manage to blame Syria on the west? Just curious now. In Libya the west got involved really late in the game. The Gaddaffi regime had in practice already lost when American and British bombers got involved. All they did was to cut short what otherwise had been a protracted end-game. Are you also going to blame the Libyan revolution on the west, or what? The west had nothing to do with that one.

As far as western intervention in Iraq. Hard to argue with that one. The west help keep Saddam in power in the beginning. That's big shame. Helped arm him to attack Iran. Big shame. Invading and ousting that fucker was the least we could do. In the big picture we're all better off with Saddam gone than in power.
 
Not all changes are violent. The problems in Iraq Syria and Libya stem directly from Western intervention regardless of who was there and the resulting deaths through war and starvation which have now surpassed one million.
What a dog's dinner they made of those countries.

Ehe.... wut? How do you manage to blame Syria on the west? Just curious now. In Libya the west got involved really late in the game. The Gaddaffi regime had in practice already lost when American and British bombers got involved. All they did was to cut short what otherwise had been a protracted end-game. Are you also going to blame the Libyan revolution on the west, or what? The west had nothing to do with that one.

As far as western intervention in Iraq. Hard to argue with that one. The west help keep Saddam in power in the beginning. That's big shame. Helped arm him to attack Iran. Big shame. Invading and ousting that fucker was the least we could do. In the big picture we're all better off with Saddam gone than in power.

The West is helping one side and others are helping the other side. The West has funded the FSA for some time.

Thanks to the West fanatical groups have now filled the void left by the collapse of the original governments. The picture is anarchy with no one in control.
The picture is also millions more will die in the process. Another US led cock up.
 
You keep blaming the US for actions that others did.

Most of those deaths were due to Sunni/Shia ethnic cleansing and fighting.

That is a peculiar penchant I've noticed; a view that the people in the Middle East lack independent agency or motivation and only act in response to the West. It's a soft bigotry. As if to say that Muslims and Arabs should be forgiven their transgressions because they can't help it.

It's not just the Middle East, but whatever minority the left is supporting. To me this is much worse racism than anything we ever saw from the KKK--and it's often being perpetrated by the minorities themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

Libya was bad under Gaddaffi, but even more so today. It's a complete basket case, just like Iraq after deposing Saddam. Should the present dictator fall in Syria without a viable alternative dictator, that also will be worst than what it already is.

Putin can see that, but Obama doesn't want to know or is turning a blind eye to the situation.

There's a reason I call it the Arab Winter.
 
England's (future) Labour Party is quicker than most to adapt to sharia law;

Maryam Namazie: Secular activist barred from speaking at Warwick University over fears of 'inciting hatred' against Muslim students

Independent

I can imagine the student union being alcohol free pretty soon. We wouldn't want the muslims to feel intimidated on campus or anything.
 
Even if Saudi Arabia and a couple of other nut job regimes fall, it will be too late to save European culture as Islam will be the dominant force within 50 years.
 
Even if Saudi Arabia and a couple of other nut job regimes fall, it will be too late to save European culture as Islam will be the dominant force within 50 years.


I'll take "Unsupported Assertions" for 500, Alex.
 
That is a peculiar penchant I've noticed; a view that the people in the Middle East lack independent agency or motivation and only act in response to the West. It's a soft bigotry. As if to say that Muslims and Arabs should be forgiven their transgressions because they can't help it.

It's not just the Middle East, but whatever minority the left is supporting. To me this is much worse racism than anything we ever saw from the KKK--and it's often being perpetrated by the minorities themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

Libya was bad under Gaddaffi, but even more so today. It's a complete basket case, just like Iraq after deposing Saddam. Should the present dictator fall in Syria without a viable alternative dictator, that also will be worst than what it already is.

Putin can see that, but Obama doesn't want to know or is turning a blind eye to the situation.

There's a reason I call it the Arab Winter.

By removing the existing dictators and destroying the infrastructure of the country it created a vacuum for people such as ISIS to take over a lot of areas, at first without any resistance.
Sun Tzu's philosophy of taking a country intact is clearly a wise strategy even today.
 
England's (future) Labour Party is quicker than most to adapt to sharia law;

Maryam Namazie: Secular activist barred from speaking at Warwick University over fears of 'inciting hatred' against Muslim students

Independent

I can imagine the student union being alcohol free pretty soon. We wouldn't want the muslims to feel intimidated on campus or anything.

It's not unexpected. The NUS refused to condemn ISIS for the same reasons but condemned Israel.
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/nus-will-condemn-israel-and-ukip-but-not-isis--lJLK98e7Ul
 
Speaking of Europe submitting voluntarily:
School Warns Parents To Dress Daughters Modestly To Avoid Offending Muslim Refugees

What happened to people respecting customs of the host country, especially when the host country is doing them a huge favor? Instead Germans are expected to defer to Islamic culture.
And Germany wants to accept 800,000 Syrians. Merkel has completely lost her mind on this and I suspect AfD (Alternative for Germany) will gain a lot of votes come next election.
Of course there is one thing Angela Merkel can do right now to solve the "refugee" crisis: have sex with a dead pig.
Refugees shun Britain, land of dead pig sex
Well played David, well played.
 
Do we equate Stalin's savagery with Communism?

Are they the same thing?

I don't know. Do we equate Hitler's savagery with National Socialism?
Are they the same thing? Also, what does that have to do with Muslim invasion of Europe?
 
Stalin had a way of getting rid of those way down in the bottom. Millions were just left to starve!

That wasn't Stalin's intention though. He wasn't trying to 'get rid of' them; He just didn't give a shit about them.

If Stalin wanted someone dead, then he had no problem sending people to shoot them dead. If he wanted someone to suffer, he had no problem sending them to somewhere where they would suffer. The people who merely starved were not targeted by Stalin as such; Their deaths were just a side effect of his economic policies.

It seems strange to me that someone who argues that 'economic migrants' are somehow less worthy of assistance than 'refugees' today, fails to make that same distinction when talking about the Soviet Union in the first half of the twentieth century.

It's almost as if you don't grasp what 'economic migrant' actually means.
 
Do we equate Stalin's savagery with Communism?

Are they the same thing?

I don't know. Do we equate Hitler's savagery with National Socialism?
Are they the same thing? Also, what does that have to do with Muslim invasion of Europe?

Don't you mean the Muslim reaction to over ten years of constant and massive violence from the West?

Any Muslim in any Muslim nation is a potential target of some Western (Christian) nation.
 
Stalin had a way of getting rid of those way down in the bottom. Millions were just left to starve!

That wasn't Stalin's intention though. He wasn't trying to 'get rid of' them; He just didn't give a shit about them.

If Stalin wanted someone dead, then he had no problem sending people to shoot them dead. If he wanted someone to suffer, he had no problem sending them to somewhere where they would suffer. The people who merely starved were not targeted by Stalin as such; Their deaths were just a side effect of his economic policies.

It seems strange to me that someone who argues that 'economic migrants' are somehow less worthy of assistance than 'refugees' today, fails to make that same distinction when talking about the Soviet Union in the first half of the twentieth century.

It's almost as if you don't grasp what 'economic migrant' actually means.
Idealistic sentiments have no basis in reality. A survey found that up to, and most likely a conservative figure, 80% of asylum seekers given permanent visas were still collecting Centrelink benefits 5 years after arrival here.
No wonder the budget is in deficit, and bound together worst.
 
That wasn't Stalin's intention though. He wasn't trying to 'get rid of' them; He just didn't give a shit about them.

If Stalin wanted someone dead, then he had no problem sending people to shoot them dead. If he wanted someone to suffer, he had no problem sending them to somewhere where they would suffer. The people who merely starved were not targeted by Stalin as such; Their deaths were just a side effect of his economic policies.

It seems strange to me that someone who argues that 'economic migrants' are somehow less worthy of assistance than 'refugees' today, fails to make that same distinction when talking about the Soviet Union in the first half of the twentieth century.

It's almost as if you don't grasp what 'economic migrant' actually means.
Idealistic sentiments have no basis in reality. A survey found that up to, and most likely a conservative figure, 80% of asylum seekers given permanent visas were still collecting Centrelink benefits 5 years after arrival here.
No wonder the budget is in deficit, and bound together worst.

A survey found that 86% of statistics presented without citations were total bullshit.

But even if every single person who came here as an asylum seeker was collecting benefits five years after arrival, that is preferable to them not being allowed in, and not being alive five years later.

Unless letting people die through indifference is of no import to you - in which case you are doing exactly what you just condemned Joe Stalin for doing.

According to my last tax receipt, the welfare portion of the Federal Budget was 36.78% of all federal spending. The vast majority of that was spent on the aged, the disabled, and family benefits - 32.26% of the total, with just 4.5% of our taxes going to benefits for the unemployed or 'other' categories.

The immigration budget was 1.28% of the total; even if the ONLY unemployed and 'other' Australians receiving benefits were immigrants (which they are not by a long chalk), that would mean that a whopping 5.8% of taxes collected were going to help out these unfortunates. The budget deficit is still tiny (despite having been trebled by Tony Abbott in just two years); and the contribution of asylum seekers to that deficit is minuscule. Indeed, the cost of offshore processing (and bribes to people smugglers) in an attempt to 'stop the boats' is far higher than the cost of paying all those people benefits instead would have been. If your concern is how much asylum seekers are costing us, then you should be campaigning for Manus Island to be closed, and the inmates granted work permits ASAP.

I am very doubtful that the total cost of assistance (including Centrelink payments) to asylum seekers is greater than the total taxes collected from them; even if your highly dubious 80% figure were correct, the majority of recipients are also paying tax (all of them pay GST, and the ones getting no benefits are also net taxpayers), so the total net cost to the taxpayer is utterly trivial - and may even be less than zero.

Your single statistic wouldn't be worth shit even if it was correct - and there is no reason to think it is, in the absence of a citation. What happens after ten years? Do the benefit claimants get jobs and pay back more in tax than they received in benefits? It seems likely that someone who has to learn a new language would take a few years to become easily employable.

Frankly, your un-sourced right-wing sound-bite is almost certainly untrue; If it were true, it would not indicate that asylum seekers cost us money; and even if it did indicate that asylum seekers cost us money, it would not show that we cannot afford it - all it does is show that your position is that other people's lives are less important to you than the price of a cup of coffee a week.

Congratulations - you are almost on a par with Joe Stalin in the compassion stakes. You must be so proud.
 
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