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That wasn't Stalin's intention though. He wasn't trying to 'get rid of' them; He just didn't give a shit about them.

If Stalin wanted someone dead, then he had no problem sending people to shoot them dead. If he wanted someone to suffer, he had no problem sending them to somewhere where they would suffer. The people who merely starved were not targeted by Stalin as such; Their deaths were just a side effect of his economic policies.

It seems strange to me that someone who argues that 'economic migrants' are somehow less worthy of assistance than 'refugees' today, fails to make that same distinction when talking about the Soviet Union in the first half of the twentieth century.

It's almost as if you don't grasp what 'economic migrant' actually means.
Idealistic sentiments have no basis in reality. A survey found that up to, and most likely a conservative figure, 80% of asylum seekers given permanent visas were still collecting Centrelink benefits 5 years after arrival here.
No wonder the budget is in deficit, and bound together worst.
So basically, what you are saying is that those 80% should have been left to starve. Or maybe more, since it's not possible to tell in advance which ones of the asylum applicants will get jobs 5 years down the road.
 
I thin Europe should just take a pragmatic view and set EU-wide quotas, instead of granting asylum on a need-to-have basis. For qualified asylum applicants, prioritize based on A) education and likelihood of getting a job, B) gender or age (women and children first), C) religion (minorities over sunni/shia). Not necessarily in that order.

Then application process should also be simplied so that one could apply already in refugee camps or from source countries directly, so that there wouldn't be need for smugglers to get them to Europe. If someone is smuggled, that should be considered negatively in their application and possibly sent back to some safe part of their own country to wait for the application to be processed.
 
Idealistic sentiments have no basis in reality. A survey found that up to, and most likely a conservative figure, 80% of asylum seekers given permanent visas were still collecting Centrelink benefits 5 years after arrival here.
No wonder the budget is in deficit, and bound together worst.
So basically, what you are saying is that those 80% should have been left to starve. Or maybe more, since it's not possible to tell in advance which ones of the asylum applicants will get jobs 5 years down the road.
No, what I'm saying is that an influx of people who will not contribute to the economy in any way, but are a drain on limited resources, are a burden on the nation!
I suppose it's another of leftist dreams of wealth distribution.
I thin Europe should just take a pragmatic view and set EU-wide quotas, instead of granting asylum on a need-to-have basis. For qualified asylum applicants, prioritize based on A) education and likelihood of getting a job, B) gender or age (women and children first), C) religion (minorities over sunni/shia). Not necessarily in that order.

Then application process should also be simplied so that one could apply already in refugee camps or from source countries directly, so that there wouldn't be need for smugglers to get them to Europe. If someone is smuggled, that should be considered negatively in their application and possibly sent back to some safe part of their own country to wait for the application to be processed.
 
So basically, what you are saying is that those 80% should have been left to starve. Or maybe more, since it's not possible to tell in advance which ones of the asylum applicants will get jobs 5 years down the road.
No, what I'm saying is that an influx of people who will not contribute to the economy in any way, but are a drain on limited resources, are a burden on the nation!

And you are demonstrably wrong; and even if you were correct, the idea that this justifies leaving them to die puts you on a par with Joe Stalin, who you earlier condemned for doing basically the same thing.

Even if every single person who came here as an asylum seeker was collecting benefits five years after arrival, that is preferable to them not being allowed in, and not being alive five years later.

Unless letting people die through indifference is of no import to you - in which case you are doing exactly what you just condemned Joe Stalin for doing.

According to my last tax receipt, the welfare portion of the Federal Budget was 36.78% of all federal spending. The vast majority of that was spent on the aged, the disabled, and family benefits - 32.26% of the total, with just 4.5% of our taxes going to benefits for the unemployed or 'other' categories.

The immigration budget was 1.28% of the total; even if the ONLY unemployed and 'other' Australians receiving benefits were immigrants (which they are not by a long chalk), that would mean that a whopping 5.8% of taxes collected were going to help out these unfortunates. The budget deficit is still tiny (despite having been trebled by Tony Abbott in just two years); and the contribution of asylum seekers to that deficit is minuscule. Indeed, the cost of offshore processing (and bribes to people smugglers) in an attempt to 'stop the boats' is far higher than the cost of paying all those people benefits instead would have been. If your concern is how much asylum seekers are costing us, then you should be campaigning for Manus Island to be closed, and the inmates granted work permits ASAP.

I am very doubtful that the total cost of assistance (including Centrelink payments) to asylum seekers is greater than the total taxes collected from them; even if your highly dubious 80% figure were correct, the majority of recipients are also paying tax (all of them pay GST, and the ones getting no benefits are also net taxpayers), so the total net cost to the taxpayer is utterly trivial - and may even be less than zero.

Your single statistic wouldn't be worth shit even if it was correct - and there is no reason to think it is, in the absence of a citation. What happens after ten years? Do the benefit claimants get jobs and pay back more in tax than they received in benefits? It seems likely that someone who has to learn a new language would take a few years to become easily employable.

Frankly, your un-sourced right-wing sound-bite is almost certainly untrue; If it were true, it would not indicate that asylum seekers cost us money; and even if it did indicate that asylum seekers cost us money, it would not show that we cannot afford it - all it does is show that your position is that other people's lives are less important to you than the price of a cup of coffee a week.

Congratulations - you are almost on a par with Joe Stalin in the compassion stakes. You must be so proud.
 
I don't know. Do we equate Hitler's savagery with National Socialism?
Are they the same thing? Also, what does that have to do with Muslim invasion of Europe?

Don't you mean the Muslim reaction to over ten years of constant and massive violence from the West?

Any Muslim in any Muslim nation is a potential target of some Western (Christian) nation.

History 101: The Muslim violence long predates the western violence you are saying caused it.

Furthermore, the Muslim violence is against everyone, not just the west.
 
Idealistic sentiments have no basis in reality. A survey found that up to, and most likely a conservative figure, 80% of asylum seekers given permanent visas were still collecting Centrelink benefits 5 years after arrival here.
No wonder the budget is in deficit, and bound together worst.
So basically, what you are saying is that those 80% should have been left to starve. Or maybe more, since it's not possible to tell in advance which ones of the asylum applicants will get jobs 5 years down the road.

And why do you assume they would starve? They weren't starving before.
 
No, what I'm saying is that an influx of people who will not contribute to the economy in any way, but are a drain on limited resources, are a burden on the nation!

Where do you get this idea that these people will not contribute to the economy in any way?

Economic migrants - yes, even the Muslim ones - arrive with the intent to contribute to the economy. To get jobs, earn money, and spend that money establishing their new life in (fill in Euro country here).

Refugees may not begin contributing to the economy immediately, and may drain some resources, but unless they're stuck in refugee camps indefinitely, they will pretty soon look to finding work. That leads to them earning money, which leads to them spending money on housing, food, and paying taxes.
 

Again, Andrew Bolt?

Fuck off.

Andrew Bolt is a source of hatred and bile; but he is most assuredly not a source of news or information.

His column is no doubt effective in boosting sales of his 'news'paper; but then, the Page 3 Girls are pretty effective in boosting sales of 'The Sun', but I am not going to rely on them to keep me abreast (pun intended) of current affairs.
 
Ehe.... wut? How do you manage to blame Syria on the west? Just curious now. In Libya the west got involved really late in the game. The Gaddaffi regime had in practice already lost when American and British bombers got involved. All they did was to cut short what otherwise had been a protracted end-game. Are you also going to blame the Libyan revolution on the west, or what? The west had nothing to do with that one.

As far as western intervention in Iraq. Hard to argue with that one. The west help keep Saddam in power in the beginning. That's big shame. Helped arm him to attack Iran. Big shame. Invading and ousting that fucker was the least we could do. In the big picture we're all better off with Saddam gone than in power.

The West is helping one side and others are helping the other side. The West has funded the FSA for some time.

Thanks to the West fanatical groups have now filled the void left by the collapse of the original governments. The picture is anarchy with no one in control.
The picture is also millions more will die in the process. Another US led cock up.

The FSA have no pull in Syria. They have been largely irrelevant all the time. Syria had no help for it to collapse. Syria was a festering puss-wound ready to burst at any second
 
The West is helping one side and others are helping the other side. The West has funded the FSA for some time.

Thanks to the West fanatical groups have now filled the void left by the collapse of the original governments. The picture is anarchy with no one in control.
The picture is also millions more will die in the process. Another US led cock up.

The FSA have no pull in Syria. They have been largely irrelevant all the time. Syria had no help for it to collapse. Syria was a festering puss-wound ready to burst at any second

It burst a couple of years ago. If the FSA (OR SHOULD IT BE FREE SYRIAN ARMIES) is irrelevant why was it given aid the first place. Of course some factions were not quite as Free Syrian Army as we thought as in pro ISIS.
This is another waste of taxpayer's money and a disregard of the cost in terms of human lives.
 
Communism often gets a bad rap. In reality communism is quite good at taking care of those at the bottom of the ladder. They actually are.
Is this the definition of taking care of them you have in mind?

So your logic is that capitalism is bad because the Nazis killed 6 million jews? Is that your fine logic here?

I'm no suporter of communism. Not at all. But nothing is all bad. Communism would never have survived anywhere if it was all bad. No political system can survive if it's all bad. Capitalism and free market is very bad at catering to the needs of those who, for various reasons, aren't able to function in the market. That's just a fact. Communism is very well suited to take care of those unfortunates.
 
Forget the source, look at the figures, and see if you can refute them!

- - - Updated - - -


Again, Andrew Bolt?

Fuck off.

Andrew Bolt is a source of hatred and bile; but he is most assuredly not a source of news or information.

His column is no doubt effective in boosting sales of his 'news'paper; but then, the Page 3 Girls are pretty effective in boosting sales of 'The Sun', but I am not going to rely on them to keep me abreast (pun intended) of current affairs.
Your source has to be the ABC, SBS or Al Jazeera and Fairfax otherwise it's all camel shite?
 
Andrew Bolt?

Fuck off.
Forget the source, look at the figures, and see if you can refute them!

- - - Updated - - -


Again, Andrew Bolt?

Fuck off.

Andrew Bolt is a source of hatred and bile; but he is most assuredly not a source of news or information.

His column is no doubt effective in boosting sales of his 'news'paper; but then, the Page 3 Girls are pretty effective in boosting sales of 'The Sun', but I am not going to rely on them to keep me abreast (pun intended) of current affairs.
Your source has to be the ABC, SBS or Al Jazeera and Fairfax otherwise it's all camel shite?

News media is all shite. Bolt is even more shite than most.

If you want to know stuff, you need to go to the source - filtering it through dumbass journos is unhelpful; filtering it through dumbass biased fuckwits like Bolt is downright insane. You have fuck all chance of sorting out the signal from the noise.

Never mind ABC or SBS, they don't collect the data. What does the ABS have to say?

The reason people reach insane conclusions is often that they are not adequately discriminating about their sources of information. Don't look for information based on its support for your opinions; look for information based on its real probability of having been least distorted.

Editorials are no better than 'some guy in a pub'. Editorials from the likes of Bolt are no better than bozo the clown - it's designed to entertain, not to inform.
 
The FSA have no pull in Syria. They have been largely irrelevant all the time. Syria had no help for it to collapse. Syria was a festering puss-wound ready to burst at any second

It burst a couple of years ago. If the FSA (OR SHOULD IT BE FREE SYRIAN ARMIES) is irrelevant why was it given aid the first place. Of course some factions were not quite as Free Syrian Army as we thought as in pro ISIS.
This is another waste of taxpayer's money and a disregard of the cost in terms of human lives.

Well.. the number one difficulty in war is information. In a chaotic situation, (which any war is) it's hard to gather information. It's in every armies best interest to confuse its opponents by spreading disinformation. There's also the question of momentum. Everybody wants to be on the winning side. By exaggerating their progress an army can get spontaneous support. This is what FSA did.

The truth is that the FSA was complete bullshit right from the start. It was nothing but talk. At it's core was a group of rebels who had virtually nothing keeping them together other than not being Assad. Most of them were Assad deserters who would have joined any rebel group. The west wanted a moderate army in Syria that they could back. So they bought into the FSA lie, a circular self-perpetuating lie. Eventually, any propaganda devoid of content will collapse. Which is what happened. In hind-sight the FSA was never a viable option. Any money given to FSA was either wasted, embezzled or went to directly funding ISIS.

But backing FSA wasn't evil... or necessarily a waste of tax payer money nor stupid. It was a gamble that didn't pay off. But it could have. There was no way of knowing until afterwards. In hind-sight everybody is a genius. Wars are extremely messy. Slim and dodgy gambles are worth taking.

Syria has three viable teams. Assad, ISIS and the Kurds. The Kurds is in a precarious situatation in that they had Turkey against them, and are operating as only an Iraqi force, and shouldn't even be inside Syrias borders. In this situation it's not hard to understand why USA keeps pouring money into FSA. That is the only option right now.

I'm rooting for team Kurd though. They seem the best suited to take charge here. But I doubt it'll happen.
 
Don't you mean the Muslim reaction to over ten years of constant and massive violence from the West?

Any Muslim in any Muslim nation is a potential target of some Western (Christian) nation.

History 101: The Muslim violence long predates the western violence you are saying caused it.

Furthermore, the Muslim violence is against everyone, not just the west.

Yes I know.

All this Western violence, and it has been massive and widespread and relentless, for over a decade, beginning with the US invasion of Afghanistan then Iraq then the non-stop drone strikes and bombings in places like Libya and Pakistan and Yemen.

All of this violence and killing and torturing, it all means nothing.

Because there were the Barbary Pirates after all. You know those Muslims who caught people and put them into slavery at the same time the US was doing the same in Africa. Their only crime was that they enslaved white Christians, the horror!
 
History 101: The Muslim violence long predates the western violence you are saying caused it.

Furthermore, the Muslim violence is against everyone, not just the west.

Yes I know.

All this Western violence, and it has been massive and widespread and relentless, for over a decade, beginning with the US invasion of Afghanistan then Iraq then the non-stop drone strikes and bombings in places like Libya and Pakistan and Yemen.

All of this violence and killing and torturing, it all means nothing.

Because there were the Barbary Pirates after all. You know those Muslims who caught people and put them into slavery at the same time the US was doing the same in Africa. Their only crime was that they enslaved white Christians, the horror!

Fun thing with Barbary pirates. In medieval muslim seas boats had no problem with pirates. So boats had no soldiers and no armaments. So they had completely different types of boats. European/mediterranean ships were floating fortresses. All countries had countries that it was ok to attack, and which were forbidden. But any captain worth his salt had a storage of flags to chose from. So they'd switch mid-trip if they wanted to attack some ship. Or vice versa, if the opponent ship was too big, they'd just switch flags. The Islamic mediterranean traders had clear rules of conduct they didn't deviate from. Ships under their protection really we safe. Also, anybody enslaved by them always had the option to convert to Islam, after which they were instantly freed. Way less barbaric than their European counterparts. Anyhoo... like most things, our view of the Islamic world is mostly down to racist propaganda. Strongly filtered history.
 
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