Europe submits voluntarily

[angelo]

Simple test. Look at the trouble spots in the world. What groups are involved? Virtually always you'll find Muslims. No other group is so represented.

I think you will find that both 'poor people' and 'poorly educated people' are more commonly represented.

I strongly suspect that 'committed nationalists/patriots' are higher up the list than 'Muslims'.

And right at the top would be 'people who have a very strong sense of tribal identity'. Like angelo and Derec are displaying in this thread.

Meanwhile. The death toll in Mogadishu has risen to 231 and rising. The slaughter of xtians by muzzies continues unabated in Nigeria and elsewhere in Africa. All the while people of the left ideology refuse, or are unable to face reality!

 

[angelo]

I think you will find that both 'poor people' and 'poorly educated people' are more commonly represented.

I strongly suspect that 'committed nationalists/patriots' are higher up the list than 'Muslims'.

And right at the top would be 'people who have a very strong sense of tribal identity'. Like angelo and Derec are displaying in this thread.

I know that in Sweden, the main nationalist party, Sweden Democrats, it's representatives have a very high percentage of members with criminal convictions for various petty crimes. Most of the violence. Way way above that of Swedes in general. Muslims are only slightly above for certain crimes. All of which can be explained by a correlation to poverty. Bottom line, there is no evidence that Muslims are any more violent than people in general. I'm not talking about newspaper headlines. I'm talking about statistics.

People are being fed a lie by newspapers. Daily Mail are just lying scumbags.

The grooming of adolescent girls for sexual purposes in England are no other but muslim!

 

[angelo]

The USA and USSR simply provided the fire lighters and fireworks.

That's naive.

In every country there are bandits who'd like to set themselves up as dictators. In every country. The reason that doesn't happen in modern, western countries is because we have institutions to prevent it. If those institutions aren't strong you don't need a lot to destroy it. Both USA picked various groups of bandits and armed them. Neither were the "good guys". USA actively opposed democratisation, because they astutely understood that if poor people are given a vote, they tend to vote socialist. In poor countries almost everybody is poor.

The Phillipines proves otherwise. Most people didn't vote socialist. Venezuela meanwhile did vote socialist and the results are obvious.

 

[TSwizzle]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. All evidence is against you. How about trying to back up your arguments?

Oh piss off. It's not an extraordinary claim, it's a widely accepted fact. Why do you keep spamming ?

The west is full of gay mosques.

Talk about extraordinary claims !!

 

[DrZoidberg]

I know that in Sweden, the main nationalist party, Sweden Democrats, it's representatives have a very high percentage of members with criminal convictions for various petty crimes. Most of the violence. Way way above that of Swedes in general. Muslims are only slightly above for certain crimes. All of which can be explained by a correlation to poverty. Bottom line, there is no evidence that Muslims are any more violent than people in general. I'm not talking about newspaper headlines. I'm talking about statistics.

People are being fed a lie by newspapers. Daily Mail are just lying scumbags.

The grooming of adolescent girls for sexual purposes in England are no other but muslim!

You completely misunderstood what that article was about, or what was the news. Grooming of adolescent girls for sex is a problem in society in general. We have no reason to believe that this is more of a problem among Muslims than non-Muslims. The article didn't make the claim. Westerners get convicted for grooming type crimes all the time. What do you think the whole Catholic priests fucking young boys was about? Or are you now going to claim that Catholic priests were secretly Muslim all along? The TV show "To catch a predator", is all about grooming. It's not unique among Muslims. The problem is men and male sexuality. Obviously not all men. But there's something about male sexual culture that sometimes leads to this... for whatever reason. It's a global phenomena. Well... probably. Some countries don't even collect, much less release these kinds of numbers.

What the article was about was how it was handled by the authorities. When these details surfaced people among the police and social welfare services did't want to come across as racist, so the neglected to report it. That's the news. Not that grooming is more of a problems than Muslims than other people. At no point has anybody made that claim. Yet, that is what you heard. What does that tell us of you?

I'll say it plainly, you are filtering news in your head. For whatever reason when you hear things about Muslims, your subconscious adds incriminating details that don't exist. Why do you think that is?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Oh piss off. It's not an extraordinary claim, it's a widely accepted fact. Why do you keep spamming ?

Because it annoys me when people spread lies. Whether you've managed to delude yourself that your talking the truth is another matter.

The west is full of gay mosques.

Talk about extraordinary claims !!

Here's just the top searches. There's loads of them. Google... do you use it?

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/.../12/20/meet-america-s-firstopenlygayimam.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...slim-is-like-deciding-which-arm-a6905521.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20547335

There's loads of "interfaith" mosques that don't turn anybody away, and who emphasise the value of all religion. Yes, I'm aware this goes right against the Quran. But that doesn't change the reality of these places.

The majority do the Christian weasel thing of "condemning the homosexual acts, but not the homosexual". Gays are welcome to those kinds of mosques to. If they would like to go... which I guess is more doubtful.

 

[TSwizzle]

Because it annoys me when people spread lies.

What lies ? The birth birthrate for indigenous Europeans is lower than muslims. Coupled with the mass influx of muslims it's obvious where things are headed.

The west is full of gay mosques.


Here's just the top searches. There's loads of them. Google... do you use it?

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/.../12/20/meet-america-s-firstopenlygayimam.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...slim-is-like-deciding-which-arm-a6905521.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20547335

Pathetic. Why do you persist with nonsense ?

 

[DrZoidberg]

What lies ? The birth birthrate for indigenous Europeans is lower than muslims. Coupled with the mass influx of muslims it's obvious where things are headed.

This isn't hard. I even explained it a couple of posts back. What exactly do you find hard to understand about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition

The west is full of gay mosques.


Here's just the top searches. There's loads of them. Google... do you use it?

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/.../12/20/meet-america-s-firstopenlygayimam.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...slim-is-like-deciding-which-arm-a6905521.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20547335

Pathetic. Why do you persist with nonsense ?

And now you seem to be struggling with clicking links. Life doesn't seem to be easy for you.

 

[bilby]

What lies ? The birth birthrate for indigenous Europeans is lower than muslims. Coupled with the mass influx of muslims it's obvious where things are headed.

The west is full of gay mosques.


Here's just the top searches. There's loads of them. Google... do you use it?

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/.../12/20/meet-america-s-firstopenlygayimam.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...slim-is-like-deciding-which-arm-a6905521.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20547335

Pathetic. Why do you persist with nonsense ?

Islam isn't a genetic trait.

In my generation, kids went into UK schools as Christians, and came out secular (to the horror of many parents).

Today, kids go into UK schools secular, with a few Christians, Muslims and Sikhs, and come out secular.

Just growing up in the UK is enough to strip away religious beliefs; kids who are surrounded by rational assessments of their beliefs drop those beliefs pretty fast. Nobody wants to be the only kid in their class who still believes in Santa Claus.

Islam isn't taking over Europe, ever. Even the vastly more numerous Christians are losing their grip on Europe at an accelerating rate.

Unless, of course, you are not really interested in religion at all. Which would put the lie to the whole "I'm not racist, because Islam isn't a race" horseshit.

 

[angelo]

What lies ? The birth birthrate for indigenous Europeans is lower than muslims. Coupled with the mass influx of muslims it's obvious where things are headed.



Pathetic. Why do you persist with nonsense ?

Islam isn't a genetic trait.

In my generation, kids went into UK schools as Christians, and came out secular (to the horror of many parents).

Today, kids go into UK schools secular, with a few Christians, Muslims and Sikhs, and come out secular.

Just growing up in the UK is enough to strip away religious beliefs; kids who are surrounded by rational assessments of their beliefs drop those beliefs pretty fast. Nobody wants to be the only kid in their class who still believes in Santa Claus.

Islam isn't taking over Europe, ever. Even the vastly more numerous Christians are losing their grip on Europe at an accelerating rate.

Unless, of course, you are not really interested in religion at all. Which would put the lie to the whole "I'm not racist, because Islam isn't a race" horseshit.

And still they persist, unbelievable! You must be aware that second and even third generation young muslims are prominent in committing terror attacks.

 

[DrZoidberg]

And still they persist, unbelievable! You must be aware that second and even third generation young muslims are prominent in committing terror attacks.

Any terror attack is still a rare event. It makes statistics on it highly dubious. Let's see if the trend persists after the fall of ISIS.

I think ISIS and Al Qaeda was the last desperate attempt of a dying form of religion. I think reformation and liberalisation of Islam will now become even more rapid.

I don't think you appreciate just how quickly the Arab/Islamic world has changed, in just the last 70 years. Rapid and monumental social change creates tensions and stresses in a society. This surfaces as violence. That's the reason Europe's 19'th century was a century of just non-ending carnage. Troops were regularly called in to subdue revolting peasants and workers. It's going a hell of a lot smoother for the Arabs, then it did the Europeans in the same period.

 

[bilby]

Western European society is a machine for turning children of religious parents into secular citizens.

Wherever you find a strong movement towards secularism, you will find a small minority of people who respond to having their religion exposed as a fraud with violence rather than acceptance; This is even more likely when they can use their religious identity as a point of difference between themselves and those who are actively cruel to them.

Radical terrorism in Europe is more a product of racism than it is a product of religion.

Young men with dark skin are reviled by their immediate community, so they turn to an imaginary community that would have respected them, if only their parents and grandparents had stayed in the glorious environment of the Islamic world. It's an easy lie to believe, when you are a young man who is being bullied for something you have no control over and cannot conceal.

Islam is a convenient option to get away from the racists, and radicalism is an opportunity for revenge.

That's also one major reason why black Americans, whose African heritage is indeterminate, but almost certainly wasn't Islamic, become Muslims.

Islam is being framed as the enemy of the west; of course there will be a few angry young men who want to join up to take revenge on the west for not giving them a fair go.

And of course it's a very desirable narrative for extremists on both sides to make the counterfactual and stupid claim that radical Islam is going to defeat the west. It helps the recruitment of angry and violent people by both sides, so it becomes a widespread element of extremist propaganda.

Bin Laden and angelo both feel that their agendas are advanced by the myth that Islam will one day overrun Europe. But that doesn't make it any less a myth.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Islam is being framed as the enemy of the west; of course there will be a few angry young men who want to join up to take revenge on the west for not giving them a fair go.

I think it's even simpler. The new economic realities of the modern world are changing the social fabric of the Middle-East and North Africa. Well... the entire developing world. Really really fast. This breeds insecurities. They can't get guidance from their fathers anymore. They all need to figure it all out for themselves. That brings about a lot of stress. Stress breeds fear. It leads to all manner of unhelpful behaviors. This all gets blamed on modernity. Modernity is equated with European culture/the west. I think it's as easy as that. Boko Haram, litteraly means the "Westernization is forbidden".

It's interesting that all these latest Islamic organisations get their main identity, not from being for stuff, but being against stuff. That's not indicative of a movement on the rise. Or a movement with popular support. The moment any movement like that gains power they won't know what to do with it, and it quickly starts falling apart. Taliban, ISIS, Boko Haram and so on. ISIS probably holds the record for alienating "liberated" people in the shortest time. If it hadn't been for foreign Jihad fighters moving there, they'd have been so fucked so fast.

And of course it's a very desirable narrative for extremists on both sides to make the counterfactual and stupid claim that radical Islam is going to defeat the west. It helps the recruitment of angry and violent people by both sides, so it becomes a widespread element of extremist propaganda.

I don't like this narrative. I don't think anybody is requiting anybody. I think these terrorist cells function like the maffia. They first convince themselves, and then they try hard, for years, trying to find terrorist cells and become a member. I think it's super super difficult to become a part of these terrorist cells. I have a very hard time believing that they need to convince anybody of anything.

Everything I've read about these terrorist cells has similar stories. The "requiters" try very hard to talk them out of making a suicide attack. I've read several account of Palestinians who wanted to be a Hammas martyr but were refused because the requiter thought they had too many responsibilities.

I think the problem with it is the modern Islamic narrative of that you can go straight to heaven if you martyr yourself in a suicide attack. Every society has people being suicidal. I should point out though that a lot of Muslims have read the whole Quran. Even the bit that forbids suicide. These Muslims are not likely to martyr themselves for anything.

Bin Laden and angelo both feel that their agendas are advanced by the myth that Islam will one day overrun Europe. But that doesn't make it any less a myth.

Whenever I hear of this I think of my old hippie father, who was really into jazz in the 50'ies. My entire life I heard him talking about how jazz would make a come back and overtake popular music again. He still thinks it will happen. It's just wishful thinking on Bin Laden's part. Obviously.

 

[angelo]

And still they persist, unbelievable! You must be aware that second and even third generation young muslims are prominent in committing terror attacks.

Any terror attack is still a rare event. It makes statistics on it highly dubious. Let's see if the trend persists after the fall of ISIS.

I think ISIS and Al Qaeda was the last desperate attempt of a dying form of religion. I think reformation and liberalisation of Islam will now become even more rapid.

I don't think you appreciate just how quickly the Arab/Islamic world has changed, in just the last 70 years. Rapid and monumental social change creates tensions and stresses in a society. This surfaces as violence. That's the reason Europe's 19'th century was a century of just non-ending carnage. Troops were regularly called in to subdue revolting peasants and workers. It's going a hell of a lot smoother for the Arabs, then it did the Europeans in the same period.

As long as there is this inconvenient truth, what you're saying is bullshit. The truth remains the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and elsewher, regard their allegiance to islam first and Western values and democracy a distant sec0nd, or even last!

 

[bilby]

Any terror attack is still a rare event. It makes statistics on it highly dubious. Let's see if the trend persists after the fall of ISIS.

I think ISIS and Al Qaeda was the last desperate attempt of a dying form of religion. I think reformation and liberalisation of Islam will now become even more rapid.

I don't think you appreciate just how quickly the Arab/Islamic world has changed, in just the last 70 years. Rapid and monumental social change creates tensions and stresses in a society. This surfaces as violence. That's the reason Europe's 19'th century was a century of just non-ending carnage. Troops were regularly called in to subdue revolting peasants and workers. It's going a hell of a lot smoother for the Arabs, then it did the Europeans in the same period.

As long as there is this inconvenient truth, what you're saying is bullshit. The truth remains the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and elsewher, regard their allegiance to islam first and Western values and democracy a distant sec0nd, or even last!

And you know this to be 'truth' how?

I'm sure you have solid research from a respectable scientific journal to back this claim, given how positively you assert it, but you appear to have forgotten to include a link or reference to it before posting.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As long as there is this inconvenient truth, what you're saying is bullshit. The truth remains the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and elsewher, regard their allegiance to islam first and Western values and democracy a distant sec0nd, or even last!

But you're not basing that on anything. It's just what you think should be true. You use the Quran as evidence. I'm sorry, but Muslims, just like any other religious people, don't seem to give a toss about their holy text.

Even if they would say that their primary allegiance is to Islam first... it doesn't prove that it is. Religion is often a persons primary identity. But religion is also infinitely malleable. Religion can be anything the religious wants it to be. The amount of Muslims I've met who abstain from alcohol at parties in Scandinavia, I can count on one hand.

You're just taking things out of context. Cobbling together various disparate facts that don't go together. Islam is not one faith. It's a multitude of various religions, that only superficially look the same. The Islam of somebody in Isis is radically different from, let's say a gay imam in Shoreditch. Christianity has exactly the same extreme variety.

 

[Derec]

Any terror attack is still a rare event.

They are occuring with some regularity in Europe. That Marseille knife attack that killed two women, perpetrated by an IS-inspired Nafri migrant, happened just three weeks ago.

It makes statistics on it highly dubious. Let's see if the trend persists after the fall of ISIS.

Since these terrorist attacks have been inspired by IS and no so much micromanaged by it, I do not see how the fall of IS in Rakka and elsewhere will negatively affect the IS-inspired terrorism.

I think ISIS and Al Qaeda was the last desperate attempt of a dying form of religion. I think reformation and liberalisation of Islam will now become even more rapid.

"Even more rapid"? What are you smoking. Islam as a whole is not liberalizing. You just have to look at all the burqa-wearing women even in the West.

I don't think you appreciate just how quickly the Arab/Islamic world has changed, in just the last 70 years.

And one of those changes was resurgence of Islamism.

 

[Derec]

Ehe... Myanmar is ethnic cleansing... AGAINST the Muslim Rohingya.

The so-called "Rohingya" are the newest iteration of the Muslim expansionsist textbook. Just like they successfully did in taking over Kosovo, Muslims are trying to do in Rakhine state of Myanmar. The playbook is as follows
- enter a country, usually illegally. Muslims came to Kosovo from Albania, and to Myanmar from Bangladesh.
- have many children and outbreed the local population. Rohingya women have even more children than Gazan or Afghan women, and that's saying something. If you see a "Rohingya" woman with only 1 or 2 children, that's because she is only 18.
- once you have the numbers, start violence against the locals. In Kosovo it was the KLA, in Rakhine it is Arakan Rohingya Salvation Army, which has links to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
- once the local population fights back, play the victim and bamboozle the West. Albanians did that by convicing Bill Clinton to bomb Serbia (netting him and Hillary statues in now-Albanian Kosovo and Albania itself), and "Rohinhgya" are trying to do the same now.

How fucking warped in the head do you need to be to manage to see the victims as perpetrators?

Because they only look at victims fighting back against a foreign group trying to slice of part of your territory and believe the Muslim propaganda that these are unprovoked attacks.

There's Rohingya's who won't take it lying down, and are fighting back.

LMAO! They are not fighting back, they are the aggressors.

These are used by the regime and nationalists to point to Islamic terrorism. It's not. It's just people defending themselves.

No, they are trying to form a Muslim country out of Myanmar territory where they illegally immigrated from Bangaldesh. They are not Burmese, they are Bengali.

You will be able to see the playbook play out in Sweden before long too.

It's not the majority population fleeing their homes and living in refugee camps. It's all Rohingya.

Losing a conflict does not make your cause automatically righteous.

Have you never wondered why people who, in your head, are safe, should feel the need to flee their homes?

For those fleeing to Europe and US the reason is often economic, not safety.

The Rohingya were brought to Myanmar by the British in colonial times. So they're seen as foreigners. This conflict is 100% ethnic. It's got nothing to do with religion.

Well, they are natives of Bangladesh. But religion plays a role. Especially in regards to ridiculously huge birth rates that they have in common with other Muslims.

Similar deal with Kosovo. The Balkans were ruled by the Ottoman empire for half a millennia. A lot of locals converted to Islam, and stayed when the Ottoman's closed shop. They were then often seen as traitors or foreigners. It is and has been a problem. The Yugoslav war was all about this.

The Albanians are not native to Kosovo. They migrated to Kosovo from Albania, had many children, and eventually took over (with help from Clinton). Same thing is being attemped in Rakhine. And if you don't think the same thing will happen in Sweden and elsewhere in Europe as Muslim invaders increase in numbers, then you are incredibly naive. Muslims are already taking over many cities such as Birmingham or Malmö.

I do not see this woman "liberalizing". In fact, she and her cohorts are deliberalizing European cities by making them look like middle Eastern cities. Complete with women walking around veiled.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It's not about race it's about mathematics. Pumping millions of migrants into European countries faster than we can built houses, schools and hospitals is sheer lunacy. While there are racist elements objecting, non-racists who know maths also object. It mainly benefits the smugglers, underground sweatshop operators and some migrants.

The race card is just a politically correct tool to try to censor any debate on this.

Race is a major factor. But yes, it gets overplayed to the point of shutting down all rational conversation.

 

[Derec]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. All evidence is against you. How about trying to back up your arguments?

The evidence of high Muslim birth rates is extensive.

The west is full of gay mosques.

A gross exaggeration. While there are some gay-friendly mosques, their numbers are dwarfed by Salafist, Wahabist and otherwise Islamist mosques.

If that isn't evidence of liberalisation, I don't know what is.

A few gay mosques do not a liberal Muslim summer make.

Muslim identified atheists is common in the west. As well as alcohol drinking Muslims. You're so fucking obviously wrong on this it's laughable. You're like somebody standing in the rain maintaining that it's sunny.

What do you mean by common? Sure, some are like this, but far more are like this:

Integration doesn't mean suppressing your own culture, and taking on the new culture. Immigrants typically exaggerate the culture they came from, through symbols and religious ritual. It's a way to feel a sense of security. But in practice they're adapting like hell.

Those two things are contradictory.

Just ask any of them which country they feel the most at home in. It doesn't take long for an immigrant to feel alien to their birth country. Cultural blending and adaption is fast, but never total.

They feel at home where they have succeeded in making them look more like Middle East than Europe.

I've managed plenty of cross cultural teams. Due to the fact that Scandinavia has a shortage of IT specialists we have to import them, just to keep our economy going. I've seen this process happen, time and time again.

May I suggest that you have a very limited, and nonrandom, sample that you are dealing with. Most Muslim mass migrants are not educated. Many are even illiterate. That Afghan who raped and murdered that German woman only had 8 grade education. Had he made it to Sweden (as he initially intended) you would not have encountered him in your company, nor the vast majority of other Muslim mass migrants.

You're confusing superficial cultural attributes with people's actual behaviour.

Example of a "superficial cultural attribute": Europe Grapples with "Honor Killings"

You've also time and time again, confused behaviors associated with low status and poverty with Muslim culture. Poor people cause a lot of trouble. This is not news.

These people get quite generous benefits in Europe. That's why they come to Europe in the first place. The problem is not poverty.

There's a pattern. You seem to be obsessed by surface impressions. You seem unable or unwilling to ask yourself why things are the way they are.

And you refuse to admit that Islamization and mass migration of Muslims is a real existential threat to Europe.