Europe submits voluntarily

[DrZoidberg]

They are occuring with some regularity in Europe. That Marseille knife attack that killed two women, perpetrated by an IS-inspired Nafri migrant, happened just three weeks ago.

You're only counting the stuff that shows up in the news. There's all manner of rioting, robberies and murders that go on all over. But most of it isn't newsworthy. In the big picture Islamic terrorism doesn't even show up in the statistics for overall deaths or wounded. It's still more dangerous to take a shit on your own toilet or eat a banana.

And then you've got political acts of violence that are branded as Islamic terror, even if they aren't. The Paris attacks wasn't an Islamic act of violence. ISIS said it was an attack to get France to withdraw their troops from Syria. Same deal with 9/11. Osama Bin Laden said the attacks was in order to pressure USA to stop meddling in the Middle-East (boy did that backfire).

It's really a confusing mess where the alt right are on purpose trying to muddy the waters, in order to make Islamic terrorism look worse than it is.

Islamic terrorism to me is attacks carried out by someone for non-political religious reasons. Like that guy who tried blowing himself up in Stockholm a couple of years back. He did it for some religious reason that escapes me. He didn't kill anybody but himself though. And the Islamic truck terrorist attack earlier this year in Stockholm. Didn't really seem to want anything other than to commit suicide. Which he chickened out from and got arrested.

If you put Islamic terrorists next to gangsters murdering people in drug maffia wars, then the Islamic terrorists are harmless. How about focusing on real problems? Islamic terrorism just isn't. It's a shame when it happens. But we've yet to reach a point where any of us need to worry about anything. The chances of it leading to any kind of minor nuisance for me specifically is near zero.

It makes statistics on it highly dubious. Let's see if the trend persists after the fall of ISIS.

Since these terrorist attacks have been inspired by IS and no so much micromanaged by it, I do not see how the fall of IS in Rakka and elsewhere will negatively affect the IS-inspired terrorism.

I think we'll get a spike in terrorist attacks the coming years. Now all the devout Islamic ISIS fighters are coming home again, and will face all manner of problems. Since their type of Islam thinks that death by suicide is an honorable way to go, I think the result will be loads of terror attacks in Europe the coming year. But that will be the end of the ISIS inspired ones.

I think ISIS and Al Qaeda was the last desperate attempt of a dying form of religion. I think reformation and liberalisation of Islam will now become even more rapid.

"Even more rapid"? What are you smoking. Islam as a whole is not liberalizing. You just have to look at all the burqa-wearing women even in the West.

Yes. Islam is liberalising rapidly. I don't know under what rock you are living, but I guess it's not one of the rocks where Muslims girls go out on the weekends to party and get drunk. I don't think that happened all that often 30 years ago?

I don't think you appreciate just how quickly the Arab/Islamic world has changed, in just the last 70 years.

And one of those changes was resurgence of Islamism.

Or rather, a rise in fundamentalist Islam. The same thing happened in the west when we industrialized. Jehovas Witnesses comes from this period. It peaked in 1930 and then as the economy of the west stabalised in the 1950'ies evangelical Christianity just died. It's still big in USA. But I'm sure it'll die there as well.

 

[fromderinside]

I agree. Derec should keep his hair on.

 

[Derec]

You're only counting the stuff that shows up in the news. There's all manner of rioting, robberies and murders that go on all over. But most of it isn't newsworthy.

You claimed that Islamic terrorism was "rare" which is abjectly false, even if other forms of death are more common.

And then you've got political acts of violence that are branded as Islamic terror, even if they aren't. The Paris attacks wasn't an Islamic act of violence. ISIS said it was an attack to get France to withdraw their troops from Syria. Same deal with 9/11. Osama Bin Laden said the attacks was in order to pressure USA to stop meddling in the Middle-East (boy did that backfire).

Ah yes, the "nothing to do with Islam" brand of Islam apologetics.

It's really a confusing mess where the alt right are on purpose trying to muddy the waters, in order to make Islamic terrorism look worse than it is.

And alt-left useful idiots are trying to make Islamic terrorism look not as bad as it really is.

I think we'll get a spike in terrorist attacks the coming years.

Well, we agree on something.

Now all the devout Islamic ISIS fighters are coming home again, and will face all manner of problems.

The first problem they should face is not being let into Europe. Second problem they face should be getting arrested and deproted if they do illegally make it into Europe.

Since their type of Islam thinks that death by suicide is an honorable way to go,

Otherwise known as "Islam".

I think the result will be loads of terror attacks in Europe the coming year. But that will be the end of the ISIS inspired ones.

And your solution to confront is, let me guess, increase the mass Muslim migration into Europe?

Yes. Islam is liberalising rapidly.

I don't know under what rock you are living, but I guess it's not one of the rocks where Muslims girls go out on the weekends to party and get drunk.

I live in the real world, and am not mistaking the relatively few MINOs (Muslims in Name Only) with the overall trend. The MINOs are not the problem. They are the ones integrating well. But when you randomly take it millions of Muslims from countries where Islamism is prevalent you won't get too many of those, compared to devbout/religious Muslims who are more likely to kill those Muslim girls for sinning than they are to join in.

Bye, bye, secular Europe!

I don't think that happened all that often 30 years ago?

Liberalizing my ass!

Or rather, a rise in fundamentalist Islam. The same thing happened in the west when we industrialized. Jehovas Witnesses comes from this period. It peaked in 1930 and then as the economy of the west stabalised in the 1950'ies evangelical Christianity just died. It's still big in USA. But I'm sure it'll die there as well.

I think if you look up "polyanna" in the dictionary, there should be a picture of an antropomorphic crustacian.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. Derec should keep his hair on.

Too late. It left a long time ago.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The evidence of high Muslim birth rates is extensive.

It's magic with numbers. First generation immigrants from a poor developing country will have birth rates matching the country they come from. The second generation immigrants have adapted. So birthrates down to the countries mean. Since we keep getting new immigrants from developing countries birth rates by Muslims look higher. It's got nothing to do with the religion. The demographic transition to low birthrates have been a bit slower in the Middle-East than elsewhere. But that can be explained by political and economic instability.

The west is full of gay mosques.

A gross exaggeration. While there are some gay-friendly mosques, their numbers are dwarfed by Salafist, Wahabist and otherwise Islamist mosques.

Sure, because Saudi Arabia funds build them. But they're empty. The biggest Stockholm mosque is quite liberal and gay friendly. There was a bit of controversy in 2013 when they invited a homophobic imam to speak. They haven't repeated that mistake. Sure, they tolerate homophobia. But they don't rail against gays. They're just silent on the matter. Whenever an imam in any mosque in Sweden says something homophobic it always creates a big stir.

If that isn't evidence of liberalisation, I don't know what is.

A few gay mosques do not a liberal Muslim summer make.

No, but it is evidence of liberalisation.

Muslim identified atheists is common in the west. As well as alcohol drinking Muslims. You're so fucking obviously wrong on this it's laughable. You're like somebody standing in the rain maintaining that it's sunny.

What do you mean by common? Sure, some are like this, but far more are like this:

Oh, for fucks sake. These aren't representative. Just go to any downtown bar and talk to any middle-eastern looking people. Ask them about their religiousity. There you'll find the normal Muslim in Europe.

Integration doesn't mean suppressing your own culture, and taking on the new culture. Immigrants typically exaggerate the culture they came from, through symbols and religious ritual. It's a way to feel a sense of security. But in practice they're adapting like hell.

Those two things are contradictory.

They're not. A metaphor. They're keeping the wrapping on the gift, but the gift is different. Or same lingerie, different hooker.

Symbols don't really mean much. What counts is what you do.

I've managed plenty of cross cultural teams. Due to the fact that Scandinavia has a shortage of IT specialists we have to import them, just to keep our economy going. I've seen this process happen, time and time again.

May I suggest that you have a very limited, and nonrandom, sample that you are dealing with. Most Muslim mass migrants are not educated. Many are even illiterate. That Afghan who raped and murdered that German woman only had 8 grade education. Had he made it to Sweden (as he initially intended) you would not have encountered him in your company, nor the vast majority of other Muslim mass migrants.

But then your problem isn't with the religion, but with members of the working class. You're just a bit snobbish. That's fine. But don't bring religion into it in that case.

You're confusing superficial cultural attributes with people's actual behaviour.

Example of a "superficial cultural attribute": Europe Grapples with "Honor Killings"

Religion has got nothing to do with honour killings. The top one, Fadime Sahindal, came from a Christian family. It's a cultural practice associated with the mountain folk living in the mountain range that goes from Pakistan, right across into Turkey. But it's also illegal in all those countries. It's a dying cultural practice.

You've also time and time again, confused behaviors associated with low status and poverty with Muslim culture. Poor people cause a lot of trouble. This is not news.

These people get quite generous benefits in Europe. That's why they come to Europe in the first place. The problem is not poverty.

So you are claiming that Europe doesn't have poor people? Swedish benefits mean that people aren't dying in the streets. We sure as hell have poor people.

There's a pattern. You seem to be obsessed by surface impressions. You seem unable or unwilling to ask yourself why things are the way they are.

And you refuse to admit that Islamization and mass migration of Muslims is a real existential threat to Europe.

Because it's a fantasy. It's not happening. I live here. I haven't seen the slightest evidence of it.

 

[TSwizzle]

It seems that some in the UK think that allah's holy warriors that return from battle should be "reintegrated".

'Naive' teenagers who return to Britain after fighting for ISIS should be allowed to reintegrate rather than face prosecution, according to the anti-terror watchdog. Max Hill QC said hundreds of Britons coming home after serving under the brutal terror group in Iraq and Syria have not been charged to avoid 'losing a generation' of young men. Around half of the estimated 850 UK citizens who joined ISIS in the Middle East have since returned, according to official figures.
The comments came a day after EU Security Commissioner Julian King revealed that up to 8,000 foreign fighters may come back to Europe after the fall of Raqqa. Experts say those who stayed are now likely to head for Turkey in the hope of travelling on to Europe to seek revenge for the destruction of the caliphate.

DailyMail


Welcome home lads !!

 

[DrZoidberg]

It seems that some in the UK think that allah's holy warriors that return from battle should be "reintegrated".

'Naive' teenagers who return to Britain after fighting for ISIS should be allowed to reintegrate rather than face prosecution, according to the anti-terror watchdog. Max Hill QC said hundreds of Britons coming home after serving under the brutal terror group in Iraq and Syria have not been charged to avoid 'losing a generation' of young men. Around half of the estimated 850 UK citizens who joined ISIS in the Middle East have since returned, according to official figures.
The comments came a day after EU Security Commissioner Julian King revealed that up to 8,000 foreign fighters may come back to Europe after the fall of Raqqa. Experts say those who stayed are now likely to head for Turkey in the hope of travelling on to Europe to seek revenge for the destruction of the caliphate.

DailyMail

Welcome home lads !!

So what do you think we should do with them?

Legally, it'll be a nightmare to prove that these people have fought for ISIS. There's no records on it. Other than the odd picture on social media. So these people will be coming home regardless of the legal situation. Another problem with having it illegal, is that it prevents us from talking about it. These are ex-combatants. Often with PTSD. That needs treatment. If they can't be open about their experiences, how the fuck will they get help? Ex-soldiers with untreated PTSD are often exceedingly dangerous.

edit: BTW, please take note of that article. It poses a scenario that keeping these people out is at all possible. As if that's an option. Ehe... Do you still not understand that the Daily Mail is just full of shit?

 

[Derec]

So what do you think we should do with them?

- Not allow them to return
- prosecute them
- extradite them to eg Iraq to face war crimes charges there

And pretty much anything is better than to allow them to return to wage Jihad in Europe, as even you admit will happen if they are allowed to come back.

Legally, it'll be a nightmare to prove that these people have fought for ISIS. There's no records on it. Other than the odd picture on social media. So these people will be coming home regardless of the legal situation.

If they are non-citizen migrants, there is no need to prove anything before not allowing them to return.
If they have foolishly been given citizenship, there is no reason to roll out the red carpet. They should be investigated and if appropriate, prosecuted and/or extadited.

Another problem with having it illegal, is that it prevents us from talking about it. These are ex-combatants. Often with PTSD. That needs treatment. If they can't be open about their experiences, how the fuck will they get help? Ex-soldiers with untreated PTSD are often exceedingly dangerous.

They are enemy combatants. If they are citizens, they are also traitors. It is exceedingly dangerous to have people like that running around Europe freely.

edit: BTW, please take note of that article. It poses a scenario that keeping these people out is at all possible. As if that's an option. Ehe... Do you still not understand that the Daily Mail is just full of shit?

We can at least try. Sure beats rolling out the red carpet and treating them as if they were some kind of victims instead of the enemy.

 

[DrZoidberg]

- Not allow them to return
- prosecute them
- extradite them to eg Iraq to face war crimes charges there

How? How are we going to prove they've been ISIS fighters? In this part of the world documents are easily faked. There's loads of people who traveled to Syria to fight against ISIS. Nobody travelles directly to Syria. People travel to neighboring countries and cross the border. It's a nightmare to prove. Denmark and Sweden both realized that keeping them out was impossible. So they just gave an amnesty to all of them. I think it was the smart thing to do.

And even if we wouldn't, the legal situation is not obvious. UK law is only applicable inside the UK. So "supporting an international terrorist organisation" is illegal. That's a charge easy as hell to dodge if you did all this abroad.

And pretty much anything is better than to allow them to return to wage Jihad in Europe, as even you admit will happen if they are allowed to come back.

I didn't say that. The one's returning to Sweden and Denmark have an incentive to say they have been fighters. So we have numbers on it. About half of them is already disillusioned with ISIS and violent Jihad prior to leaving Syria, and just want to put it behind them. Punishing these people would be counter-productive IMHO. Nearly all of them very young. There's lots of them who went down as teenagers. Teenagers do dumb shit. That's part of being a teenager. Who knows how we had behaved in a similar situation. I did lots of stupid shit as a kid. Lucky me there wasn't a war I could join.

The other half is more complicated. But they are all citizens and these are free countries. There's many ways of doing a Jihad. Many non-violent ways. Handing out Islamic leaflets on a train station is also Jihad. If we can talk them into doing that, it's good. At least there's a dialogue going. If we prosecute them we don't have that. Then I think we can count on them continuing violent Jihad.

We don't know if these people are war criminals. You're just assuming they all are.

Legally, it'll be a nightmare to prove that these people have fought for ISIS. There's no records on it. Other than the odd picture on social media. So these people will be coming home regardless of the legal situation.

If they are non-citizen migrants, there is no need to prove anything before not allowing them to return.
If they have foolishly been given citizenship, there is no reason to roll out the red carpet. They should be investigated and if appropriate, prosecuted and/or extadited.

None of these are non-citiziens migrants. Obviously. How the fuck are you thinking? Sometimes you say the most baffling things. Most of them were "foolishly given citizenship" because their parents are UK citizens and they were born there. That's been the case in Scandinavia.

If they're UK citizens and born in the UK... extradited to where?

Another problem with having it illegal, is that it prevents us from talking about it. These are ex-combatants. Often with PTSD. That needs treatment. If they can't be open about their experiences, how the fuck will they get help? Ex-soldiers with untreated PTSD are often exceedingly dangerous.

They are enemy combatants. If they are citizens, they are also traitors. It is exceedingly dangerous to have people like that running around Europe freely.

How are they traitors? Last time I checked, freedom of religion was a western value. Are you know against western values suddenly?

edit: BTW, please take note of that article. It poses a scenario that keeping these people out is at all possible. As if that's an option. Ehe... Do you still not understand that the Daily Mail is just full of shit?

We can at least try. Sure beats rolling out the red carpet and treating them as if they were some kind of victims instead of the enemy.

Choices have costs. I think your option leads to more violence, more Islamic extremism and more terrorism. I'm against terrorism and I'm against Islam, so I say not.

Perhaps victims of their own stupidity?

 

[angelo]

As long as there is this inconvenient truth, what you're saying is bullshit. The truth remains the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and elsewher, regard their allegiance to islam first and Western values and democracy a distant sec0nd, or even last!

And you know this to be 'truth' how?

I'm sure you have solid research from a respectable scientific journal to back this claim, given how positively you assert it, but you appear to have forgotten to include a link or reference to it before posting.

Pew research. But of course that outfit is " islamphobic " right!

 

[angelo]

It seems that some in the UK think that allah's holy warriors that return from battle should be "reintegrated".

'Naive' teenagers who return to Britain after fighting for ISIS should be allowed to reintegrate rather than face prosecution, according to the anti-terror watchdog. Max Hill QC said hundreds of Britons coming home after serving under the brutal terror group in Iraq and Syria have not been charged to avoid 'losing a generation' of young men. Around half of the estimated 850 UK citizens who joined ISIS in the Middle East have since returned, according to official figures.
The comments came a day after EU Security Commissioner Julian King revealed that up to 8,000 foreign fighters may come back to Europe after the fall of Raqqa. Experts say those who stayed are now likely to head for Turkey in the hope of travelling on to Europe to seek revenge for the destruction of the caliphate.

DailyMail


Welcome home lads !!

Perhaps even a welcome home and a parade as heroes!

 

[TSwizzle]

It seems that some in the UK think that allah's holy warriors that return from battle should be "reintegrated".



DailyMail

Welcome home lads !!

So what do you think we should do with them?

They should be handed over to the Kurds, they will know what to do.

Do you still not understand that the Daily Mail is just full of shit?

You were challenged multiple times to show where the Daily Mail has lied in any piece I have posted here and failed to do so. It would appear that it is you that is full of shit.

 

[bilby]

And you know this to be 'truth' how?

I'm sure you have solid research from a respectable scientific journal to back this claim, given how positively you assert it, but you appear to have forgotten to include a link or reference to it before posting.

Pew research. But of course that outfit is " islamphobic " right!

"Link or reference".

The name of a research organisation is neither of these things.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Do you still not understand that the Daily Mail is just full of shit?

You were challenged multiple times to show where the Daily Mail has lied in any piece I have posted here and failed to do so. It would appear that it is you that is full of shit.

So pathetic. You lost the argument, but maintain that you won.

White lies is also lying. Leaving out critical information is lying. But I think you know this. So you're either an idiot or liar. I think liar.

 

[angelo]

Pew research. But of course that outfit is " islamphobic " right!

"Link or reference".

The name of a research organisation is neither of these things.

http://www.pewresearch.org/topics/muslims-and-islam/

 

[Derec]

It's magic with numbers.

It's not magic with numbers, just numbers. Muslims have high birth rates.

First generation immigrants from a poor developing country will have birth rates matching the country they come from. The second generation immigrants have adapted.

Some of them. Not all. Many 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims have not integrated at all, but still live like their parents and grandparents did with putting bags over their wives' heads and making a lot of babies.
And note that mass migration of Muslims is continuing, and will continue. Which means that Islamic takeover of Europe is inevitable unless migration policies radically change.

So birthrates down to the countries mean.

Nonsense. Their birth rates may drop lower than the old country, but they are still significantly higher than the host country's. Which means a demographic takeover, especially when coupled with essentially permanent mass migration.

Since we keep getting new immigrants from developing countries birth rates by Muslims look higher.

That is part of my argument. It is the combined effect of mass migration and mass breeding that is doing Europe in.

It's got nothing to do with the religion.

"Nothing to do with Islam", the mantra of the useful idiot of Islamism.

The demographic transition to low birthrates have been a bit slower in the Middle-East than elsewhere. But that can be explained by political and economic instability.

Mostly religion. Muslims have higher birth rates than their neighbors everywhere you go, not only in the Middle East. Look at the Rohingya, having 6-7 children per woman and being a genuine demographic threat to Myanmar in addition to being a violent threat due to the terrorist group ARSA.

Sure, because Saudi Arabia funds build them. But they're empty.

[citation needed]

The biggest Stockholm mosque is quite liberal and gay friendly. There was a bit of controversy in 2013 when they invited a homophobic imam to speak.

[citation needed] and also those two statements are not really consistent.

They haven't repeated that mistake. Sure, they tolerate homophobia. But they don't rail against gays. They're just silent on the matter.

So to you "gay-friendly" simply means, "they are silent about wanting to fling faggots off the roofs"?

No, but it is evidence of liberalisation.

Not when the evidence of a reverse trend (see Iran for example) is much more extensive. It's like taking one step forward and marching a mile backward.

Oh, for fucks sake. These aren't representative.

Why not? There sure are a lot of people in these Islamist protests. And if I drive through Clarkston, most women one sees are veiled, often fully. And many men wear a nightgown and Islamic beard too. They sure are not integrating or adapting. They are colonizing.

Just go to any downtown bar and talk to any middle-eastern looking people. Ask them about their religiousity. There you'll find the normal Muslim in Europe.

Sure, you'll find some. But stop pretending they are the rule.

Symbols don't really mean much. What counts is what you do.

Symbols are usually indicative of what a person or culture believes and how they behave.

But then your problem isn't with the religion, but with members of the working class. You're just a bit snobbish. That's fine. But don't bring religion into it in that case.

What I was saying is that your interaction with Muslims is limited to those better educated who would work in your company or those you encounter in bars. You do not interact with vast majority of uneducated, very religious mass migrants. But vast majority of the mass migrants are like that, and only small minority are like what you describe.

Religion has got nothing to do with honour killings.

Again with that mantra. Why then are vast majority of honor killings perpetrated by Muslims?

The top one, Fadime Sahindal, came from a Christian family.

Citation needed. Neither that article not the wiki page on her claims she came from a Christian family.

It's a cultural practice associated with the mountain folk living in the mountain range that goes from Pakistan, right across into Turkey. But it's also illegal in all those countries. It's a dying cultural practice.

Not dying fast enough. And do you know who tends to live in the mountains between Pakistan and Turkey? It's Muslims!

So you are claiming that Europe doesn't have poor people? Swedish benefits mean that people aren't dying in the streets. We sure as hell have poor people.

There are poor people in Sweden but the migrants still get very generous benefits (which means there is less money for services for Swedes of course). But many migrants are still ungrateful because they expected a free three bedroom house or something.
Migrants Angry with Sweden Expected 'Own House', Girlfriend
I know this is Breitbart, but not speaking Swedish I was not able to listen to the linked interview with Swedish radio. You are welcome to listen to it and say if you think Breitbart misrepresented anything.

Because it's a fantasy. It's not happening. I live here. I haven't seen the slightest evidence of it.

Then you are blind. I can see Islamization of Europe from here.

 

[Derec]

How? How are we going to prove they've been ISIS fighters?

That's up to investigators, isn't it? But by giving them amnesty you are basically saying that even if we can prove they are IS, we should not prosecute or extradite them.

Denmark and Sweden both realized that keeping them out was impossible.

Not impossible, just politically incorrect. I swear, both of you need a solid dose of your own version of AfD.

So they just gave an amnesty to all of them. I think it was the smart thing to do.

It's an idiotic thing to do. It's like giving amnesty to all Nazis after WWII.

And even if we wouldn't, the legal situation is not obvious. UK law is only applicable inside the UK. So "supporting an international terrorist organisation" is illegal. That's a charge easy as hell to dodge if you did all this abroad.

Even if that were the case (it is dubious), they can still be extradited to where they committed their crimes.
Think about it. If prosecuting these jihadists was really impossible, there would be no need to give them amnesty.

I didn't say that. The one's returning to Sweden and Denmark have an incentive to say they have been fighters. So we have numbers on it. About half of them is already disillusioned with ISIS and violent Jihad prior to leaving Syria, and just want to put it behind them.

Punishing these people would be counter-productive IMHO.

So people who commit crimes should not get punished if they say they are sorry? Or does that only apply to Muslims? Fit with how Sweden treats Muslims who rape children - give them a slap on the wrist and not even deport them.
Yemeni Man Rapes 13-Year-Old Girl In Sweden, Receives 18 Months Probation

Nearly all of them very young.

So what? That makes them even more dangerous when they come back.

There's lots of them who went down as teenagers. Teenagers do dumb shit.

There is a huge difference between denting your father's car and joining a terrorist organization.

That's part of being a teenager. Who knows how we had behaved in a similar situation. I did lots of stupid shit as a kid. Lucky me there wasn't a war I could join.

Of course you could. You just didn't.

The other half is more complicated. But they are all citizens and these are free countries.

If they are citizens and their country participating in fighting against ISIS that makes them traitors. And in any case, citizens can be extradited to answer for crimes they committed in other countries. I see absolutely no reason why these jihadists should be given amnesty for what they did.

There's many ways of doing a Jihad. Many non-violent ways. Handing out Islamic leaflets on a train station is also Jihad.

Unlike you, I do not view Islamism through political means as good. They may not engage in overt terrorism, but their end goals, an Islamic theocracy, is the same.

If we can talk them into doing that, it's good.

Not really. It is better than terrorism, but jihad by political means is still not "good".

At least there's a dialogue going. If we prosecute them we don't have that. Then I think we can count on them continuing violent Jihad.

A dialogue implies we have something to learn from Islamists and IS sympathizers. We do not. And if they are in prison there is not much chance of them committing terrorist attacks.
Do you think all terrorists should be offered "dialogue" instead of punishment? What about other crimes?

It's amazing that Sweden thinks that men who want to engage in consensual sex with a sex workers should be throw into prison but that Islamic terrorists should be given amnesty and a stipend.

We don't know if these people are war criminals.

They can always offer a defense at trial. That not all of them are guilty is not a reason not to prosecute any of them.

You're just assuming they all are.

You are assuming they should not be investigated at all and given amnesty even if they are.

None of these are non-citiziens migrants. Obviously.

How is that obvious? None of the millions of Muslim migrants who flooded into Europe in recent years decided to go and fight for IS in Iraq and Syria? I find that hard to believe.

How the fuck are you thinking? Sometimes you say the most baffling things.

Sometimes you are baffled by most unbaffling things. Why would it be impossible for migrants who have not (yet) been given citizenship to travel to the Middle East and fight for IS? And then try to come back claiming asylum/refugee status again? It's not like EU is doing any checks before letting fakefugees in in the first place!

Most of them were "foolishly given citizenship" because their parents are UK citizens and they were born there. That's been the case in Scandinavia.

I think automatic birthright citizenship is foolish and a generation of 5th columnist Muslims is a good example of why.

If they're UK citizens and born in the UK... extradited to where?

To where they committed their crimes. Citizens can be extradited, especially when they have committed serious crimes.
Of course it is much cleaner not to let them return in the first place. Let Kurds for example deal with them.

How are they traitors? Last time I checked, freedom of religion was a western value. Are you know against western values suddenly?

Sometimes it is you who says the most baffling things. Membership in a terrorist organization is not protected by "freedom of religion". And taking up arms against your country is treason. Since both Sweden and UK are part of the anti-IS coalition, Swedish and UK citizens (among many others) fighting for ISIS are traitors and should be treated as such.

Choices have costs. I think your option leads to more violence, more Islamic extremism and more terrorism.

Didn't you yourself say that returning IS terrorists will lead to an increase in Islamic terrorism in Europe in the coming years?

I'm against terrorism and I'm against Islam, so I say not.

You are the biggest apologist for Islam on this forum. In a different discussion some time ago you admitted that you have nothing against Islamism being imposed in Sweden as long as it is done by political means.

 

[angelo]

Latest reports are that London is more crime ridden and dangerous than New York, with rape, robbery and violent offences far higher in the British capital.
Statistics reveal crime across the UK is up 13%, with a surge in violence in the capital blamed for most of it.
Some non blinkered people attribute this to the spread of radical islam.
Like most pc left leaning MPs, former labour leader Ed Miliband has his head well and truly stuck up his arse by turning a blind eye to the problem.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Latest reports are that London is more crime ridden and dangerous than New York, with rape, robbery and violent offences far higher in the British capital.
Statistics reveal crime across the UK is up 13%, with a surge in violence in the capital blamed for most of it.
Some non blinkered people attribute this to the spread of radical islam.
Like most pc left leaning MPs, former labour leader Ed Miliband has his head well and truly stuck up his arse by turning a blind eye to the problem.

You can't just use one number like this for all crime and assume that it's true. With statistics I can prove that any city is safer than any other. Statistical variance is normal. So if I chose the intervall I can chose anything. When you present statistics you need to provide a source and some explanation as to why it's relevant.

I also find the idea bizarre. A big part of Islam and the Islamic community is to keep people moral. It's a variety of systems all intended to keep people honest and good contributing members of society. Encouraging people to follow the law is a major part of Islam. Violent Jihad in the West is pretty fucking far from mainstream Jihad. It's almost universally frowned upon by Muslims. And their Imams usually condemn it loudly at every opportunity to do so. So either Islam has a major impact on their followers, making them less criminal. Or Muslims don't really care about the Quran and the Islamic community, at which point your theory is bunk.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because it's a fantasy. It's not happening. I live here. I haven't seen the slightest evidence of it.

Then you are blind. I can see Islamization of Europe from here.

No, you can't. It's just in your head.



This is a picture from Copenhagen. In spite of this Copenhagen doesn't have a dinosaur problem.



Here's another picture from Copenhagen. Not a trace of Islam in this picture. Hm... odd? Women not in Burkha's, with their hair out. How do you explain that? Danes have the highest consumption of alcohol in Europe. Isn't that odd considering Denmark now seems to be a Caliphate.

A handful of Muslim dickwads protesting does not a caliphate make. This is what democracy looks like. Dickwads being allowed to express their retardation in public. It's a sign of a healthy democratic society. Yes, even the Nazis spreading their bullshit is as well.

 

[angelo]

Independent source?
https://snopes.com/trump-uk-terrorism/