• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Europe submits voluntarily

Status
Not open for further replies.

Submitting to the supremacism of Islam is naive at best, traitors at worse. In Muhammads day, many tribes tried appeasement hoping to avoid been beheaded by the marauding Muslims headed by most probably the most blood thirsty terrorist of all time Muhammad.
It did them little good. Dhimmi are only useful as long as they submit and become as slaves to these barbaric hoardes. Islam doesn't affiliate, it dominates everywhere it goes, once they become the majority. Untill they do, they play the victims card, which with the help of most left leaning media and left of centre politicians is more successful than the mullahs could ever have hoped for.
 
Yepp, many islamophobes are just antisemites who got shy about their true passion ever since it has become somewhat less popular.
And many other antisemites are also islamophiles. For example those who support the BDS movement and also unlimited mass migration of Muslims into Europe.
Hell, many antisemites are Muslims themselves. In fact the increase in antisemitism in Europe can largely be attributed to Muslim mass migration. Like the 19-year old Syrian fakefugee who attacked an Israeli Arab in Berlin who was wearing a yarmulke as an experiment to see if it has really become unsafe for Jews in Berlin.
 
There was a study in Austria a couple years back. I can't seem to dig it up at the moment, but it's referenced here - 1.9 children per woman of Turkish background in Austria, with the numbers somewhat higher for Turkish citizens, already below two for Turkish-born naturalised citizens, and indistinguishable from other Austrians for Austrian-born women with a Turkish background. The 2.3 children referenced here is only for Turkish citizens.
Even if it is true that birth and total fertility rate drops for Turkish women and gets close to that of native Europeans, the time it takes for that equalization still means an increase in Muslim percentage even without new migration. But there is new mass migration. Merkel let in a million unvetted Muslim mass migrants into Germany alone in 2015 alone. And >100,000 mass migrants are still flooding into Europe per year. And those tend to be from very high birth rate parts of the Muslim world - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia etc.
Second, on every continent Muslim women have more children than non-Muslim ones, regardless whether it is a low-birth rate continent or a high-birth rate one.

Third, Erdogan ordered Turkish women in Europe to have five children each. Even if a minority of Turkish women heeds that, I expect an increase in TFR for Turkish women in Europe going forward.
Erdogan calls on Turkish families in Europe to have five children to protect against 'injustices'
After all, many Turks living in Europe support Erdogan. See, for example here.

No, you were talking about Muslims, that's the exact word you used.
Well Muslims in general have higher birth rates than non-Muslims wherever they are, except possibly Middle East.
PF_15.04.02_ProjectionsTables75.png


But most dangerous are very high-birth rate Muslims, and Afghans are both high-birth rate and many Muslim mass migrants come from there.

There's about three million people with a background from Turkey and a quarter million Afghans in Germany, so when talking about Muslims, that's a priori mostly Turks and Kurds, and the average of all Muslims is going to be influenced more by the average Turkish or Kurdish woman than by the average Afghan woman.
Well, with close to 5 children per Afghan women and with continued mass migration from Afghanistan (for economic purposes, the asylum claims are bogus), Afghans will increase their numbers quickly. There is no indication mass migration of Afghans will cease anytime soon. It is a common gambit of many Afghan families to send a son to Europe to send money back.


Afghan women in Afghanistan have a TFR around 4.5 (and falling rapidly).
Falling rapidly? Really?
And according to this, it is 5.12.
CIA World Factbook also has net migration rate of -0.9%. That means that at least 300,000 Afghans are leaving each year. Where do you think most of them are heading? It's not Japan or China, that's for sure, because those countries actually protect their borders and enforce immigration laws.
Note that Pew survey says that 97% of Afghans support Sharia Law, but islamophilic Left doesn't care when they invite them to Europe with no vetting (so that even people with serious criminal records in Greece are welcomed in Germany) in large quantities.

Afghan women in exile - not so much.
Citation needed.
We've been through this I believe on the first ten pages of this thread. We have longtitudinal data for what happens when Afghans settle in large numbers in a society with different demographic characteristics, and those data show that their fertility rates converge with that of society at large - in Iran, second generation Afghan immigrant women have fertility rates very close to those Iranian women (almost indistinguishable after correcting for socio-economic factors).
Even if this were the case, and I doubt it very much, you still have one generation of incredibly high birth rates. Which means that any Afghan migrants you take in will at least double in numbers within a generation. And note that more mass migrants keep coming and they are obviously still in the "more than 5 children per woman" mode, so the whole thing repeats.
Note also the impact of parallel societies. When the number of migrants from a particular culture is low, they tend to assimilate and adopt their host culture's way of life, including TFR. But when there is mass migration the migrants are numerous enough they can create a parallel society where there is no pressure to assimilate or change things like how many children you have. Especially when benefits are much more generous when you have a lot of children (see that Afghan family with 9 children that receives more than 5k Euros per month of benefits from Austria).
I do not think you can extrapolate from normal levels of migration to mass migration we are seeing now.

So many are coming en masse and they double their numbers within a generation.
No, they don't as per above.
Wrong. Even if your claim was correct (and I do not think it is, at least not for mass migration), the first generation is still in the high TFR mode and thus you still get at least the initial doubling.
 
Last edited:
Even if it is true that birth and total fertility rate drops for Turkish women and gets close to that of native Europeans, the time it takes for that equalization still means an increase in Muslim percentage even without new migration. But there is new mass migration. Merkel let in a million unvetted Muslim mass migrants into Germany alone in 2015 alone. And >100,000 mass migrants are still flooding into Europe per year. And those tend to be from very high birth rate parts of the Muslim world - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia etc.
Second, on every continent Muslim women have more children than non-Muslim ones, regardless whether it is a low-birth rate continent or a high-birth rate one.

And counties with higher stork populations have higher birth rates than cities too!

Third, Erdogan ordered Turkish women in Europe to have five children each. Even if a minority of Turkish women heeds that, I expect an increase in TFR for Turkish women in Europe going forward.
Erdogan calls on Turkish families in Europe to have five children to protect against 'injustices'
After all, many Turks living in Europe support Erdogan. See, for example here.

Look at fucking history! When has a strongman's proclamation "we need more kids" ever actually lead to more kids? People's realities are determined by, well, reality, (almost) irrespective of what ideology they profess.

Well Muslims in general have higher birth rates than non-Muslims wherever they are, except possibly Middle East.
PF_15.04.02_ProjectionsTables75.png

For Africa, 99% of this effect is explained by the geography of Western Africa: The more southerly countries, which tend to have fewer Muslims, also tend to be more developed by sheer force of having access to global trade through the ocean, while the landlocked, more Northern countries happen to have more Muslims for historical reasons.

The African country with the lowest TFR is actually almost 100% Muslim (Tunisia).

It's even worse (for your notion) in South East Asia, where Muslim majority Malaysia and Brunei (along with mostly Buddhist Thailand and Vietnam) have TFRs below 2.0, while the country with the highest TFR is Catholic Timor Leste, followed by Catholic Philippines and Buddhist Laos.

But most dangerous are very high-birth rate Muslims, and Afghans are both high-birth rate and many Muslim mass migrants come from there.

There's about three million people with a background from Turkey and a quarter million Afghans in Germany, so when talking about Muslims, that's a priori mostly Turks and Kurds, and the average of all Muslims is going to be influenced more by the average Turkish or Kurdish woman than by the average Afghan woman.
Well, with close to 5 children per Afghan women and with continued mass migration from Afghanistan (for economic purposes, the asylum claims are bogus), Afghans will increase their numbers quickly. There is no indication mass migration of Afghans will cease anytime soon. It is a common gambit of many Afghan families to send a son to Europe to send money back.

Meanwhile in reality, the number of Afghans in Germany is already declining:
https://de.statista.com/statistik/d...ge/auslaender-aus-afghanistan-in-deutschland/

Afghan women in Afghanistan have a TFR around 4.5 (and falling rapidly).
Falling rapidly? Really?

Yes, falling rapidly. The rate was 7.6 or so at the turn of the millennium. Click this link and say again that they don't, with a straight face if you can.

And according to this, it is 5.12.
CIA World Factbook also has net migration rate of -0.9%. That means that at least 300,000 Afghans are leaving each year. Where do you think most of them are heading?

Iran. True story.

It's not Japan or China, that's for sure, because those countries actually protect their borders and enforce immigration laws.
Note that Pew survey says that 97% of Afghans support Sharia Law, but islamophilic Left doesn't care when they invite them to Europe with no vetting (so that even people with serious criminal records in Greece are welcomed in Germany) in large quantities.

Afghan women in exile - not so much.
Citation needed.

Just read on.

We've been through this I believe on the first ten pages of this thread. We have longtitudinal data for what happens when Afghans settle in large numbers in a society with different demographic characteristics, and those data show that their fertility rates converge with that of society at large - in Iran, second generation Afghan immigrant women have fertility rates very close to those Iranian women (almost indistinguishable after correcting for socio-economic factors).
Even if this were the case, and I doubt it very much,

I gave you a fucking citation. Do you trust your gut feeling more than expert demographers who've been crunching the numbers from the Iranian census?

you still have one generation of incredibly high birth rates. Which means that any Afghan migrants you take in will at least double in numbers within a generation.

No, it doesn't mean that. Not when the numbers drop to half within one generation.

And note that more mass migrants keep coming and they are obviously still in the "more than 5 children per woman" mode, so the whole thing repeats.

Current trends persisting, ten years from now even the new arrivals will be in a 2.5 children per woman mode.

Note also the impact of parallel societies. When the number of migrants from a particular culture is low, they tend to assimilate and adopt their host culture's way of life, including TFR. But when there is mass migration the migrants are numerous enough they can create a parallel society where there is no pressure to assimilate or change things like how many children you have. Especially when benefits are much more generous when you have a lot of children (see that Afghan family with 9 children that receives more than 5k Euros per month of benefits from Austria).
I do not think you can extrapolate from normal levels of migration to mass migration we are seeing now.

Dafuq? There's more than 3 million Afghans in Iran, and that's probably not counting undocumented illegal migrants, numbering at least another million. How's that "normal levels of migration" when barely a quarter million in Germany counts as mass migration for you?

So many are coming en masse and they double their numbers within a generation.
No, they don't as per above.
Wrong. Even if your claim was correct (and I do not think it is, at least not for mass migration), the first generation is still in the high TFR mode and thus you still get at least the initial doubling.

In reality, the figures dropping to half within one generation never means they stay exactly where they were for 25 years and then magically drop overnight.

Reality disagrees. Reality doesn't change you don't like it. I've shown you facts and figures. If you prefer to remain ignorant, that's a choice.
 
I slightly misspoke, the 3 million figure for Afghans in Iran does include illegal immigrants. There's roughly one million registered refugees from Afghanistan in Iran, several 100,000 visa holding migrants, and estimates for illegal immigrants range from one to one and a half million.

Even so, though, Afghans in Iran are about ten to twelve times as numerous as Afghans in Germany both in absolute terms and - since Iran and Germany have a similar population - in relative terms. Calling Afghans in Iran a case of "normal migration" while simultaneously calling Afghans in Germany a case of "mass migration" remains ridiculous.
 
I slightly misspoke, the 3 million figure for Afghans in Iran does include illegal immigrants. There's roughly one million registered refugees from Afghanistan in Iran, several 100,000 visa holding migrants, and estimates for illegal immigrants range from one to one and a half million.

Even so, though, Afghans in Iran are about ten to twelve times as numerous as Afghans in Germany both in absolute terms and - since Iran and Germany have a similar population - in relative terms. Calling Afghans in Iran a case of "normal migration" while simultaneously calling Afghans in Germany a case of "mass migration" remains ridiculous.

Afghanistanis and Iranians are of the same supremacist ideology. Completely alien to Europe in comparison. Besides, in Germany the vast majority of them become a burden on the German taxpayer, that's not to mention the threat of jihad they pose.
 
I slightly misspoke, the 3 million figure for Afghans in Iran does include illegal immigrants. There's roughly one million registered refugees from Afghanistan in Iran, several 100,000 visa holding migrants, and estimates for illegal immigrants range from one to one and a half million.

Even so, though, Afghans in Iran are about ten to twelve times as numerous as Afghans in Germany both in absolute terms and - since Iran and Germany have a similar population - in relative terms. Calling Afghans in Iran a case of "normal migration" while simultaneously calling Afghans in Germany a case of "mass migration" remains ridiculous.

Afghanistanis and Iranians are of the same supremacist ideology. Completely alien to Europe in comparison. Besides, in Germany the vast majority of them become a burden on the German taxpayer, that's not to mention the threat of jihad they pose.

That may or may not be so (hint: it's not), but it's completely irrelevant for the discussion the adults are having - about whether the facts of the world allow the conclusion that the population of people with Afghan descent in Germany will double every generation indefinitely even without immigration due to their high fertility rates.

What's relevant for this discussion is

a) Iran's total fertility rate, which is, at 1.7-something children per woman barely a third of Afghanistan's. Whatever similarities the countries and their populations may have, in the one and only relevant area they're more different than any other pair of neighbouring countries of the fucking globe (1),
(2) (or should I say: plane, is that more to your liking?); and
b) The fact that millions of Afghans have been living in Iran ever since 1979.

These two easily verifiable facts grant us the opportunity to reach a fact-based conclusion about what is likely to happen in reality when large numbers of Afghans are transplanted into a society with very different reproductive mores, as opposed to what islamophobic doomsayers pull out of their ass. The result is clear: They adapt, and rather quickly at that.

1:0 for reality I'd say.




(1) Contested. Another candidate is Niger vs. Libya or Algeria.

(2) Afghanistan has a few dozen km of rough mountainous border with China, with a pass almost 5000m high that was used historically but is currently closed and has no road crossing it. Still, technically Afghanistan-China is another contester.
 
Last edited:

And you have no idea at all what happens in localities where Muslims are in the majority. According to the medium case forecast of just 20% Muslim population in Europe by 2050 means whole cities may be sharia based undemocratic freedom less extensions the hell holes most of these barbaric people come from. Already in some German locations of Bavaria where's there more than 60% Muslims, police in ever attended in large numbers. Unthinkable that just one police officer can go do his duty.
 
- unemployment in Germany has fallen from around 5% in 2014 to just under 4% in 2017. Some maybe would have been employed and paying taxes - but to the Romanian, Serbian or Polish state, not the German one. Have you been to a German construction site recently?
Great, so that will just mean even more need for social spending to erect even more housing units and teach even more language courses and do even more integration measures, this time for Romanian, Serbian and Polish immigrants. What you're describing isn't cost-saving; it's a Ponzi scheme.

I seriously don't get it. I know you're too intelligent to believe that a full-time employed, tax-paying construction worker is a net burden on other tax-payers - if only he's a foreigner. Yet this seems to be exactly what you're insinuating.
And I know you're too intelligent to believe that following the painfully predictable leftist playbook of insinuating your opponent is a bigot is an effective way to construct a sound argument. Hold yourself to a higher standard than that.

Try seriously getting this: a full-time employed, tax-paying construction worker is of course a net burden on other taxpayers, if he's employed by the state, at the expense of the taxpayers, to construct stuff the taxpayers don't benefit from. For example, new windows, for buildings that already have perfectly serviceable windows and will continue to have them unless the government deliberately breaks them. Or, for another example, housing for migrants the government deliberately brought in whom the taxpayers don't benefit from.

I'm not insinuating anything; I'm coming right out and saying a full-time employed, tax-paying construction worker can be a net burden on other taxpayers even if he's a German. Now that we have that cleared up, it should be painfully obvious that Romanianness won't stop a Romanian worker from likewise being a net burden on taxpayers, if all he's constructing is housing for Middle-Easterners, right up until the Middle-Easterners do something for the German taxpayers in exchange for their new houses.

... or maybe their old jobs were going away because spending on migrants squeezed out spending on what they were doing before.

Well if it's the latter, only the worse for angelo's claim of an enormous impeding tax hike.
Sure -- I think we're all familiar with angelo's tendency to ready-fire-aim. He focused on the wrong downside of migration -- the German people are likely to pay for their government's folly more in reduced social services than in hiked taxes.
 

And you have no idea at all what happens in localities where Muslims are in the majority. According to the medium case forecast of just 20% Muslim population in Europe by 2050 means whole cities may be sharia based undemocratic freedom less extensions the hell holes most of these barbaric people come from. Already in some German locations of Bavaria where's there more than 60% Muslims, police in ever attended in large numbers. Unthinkable that just one police officer can go do his duty.

Making up stuff doesn't make it so.
 
And you have no idea at all what happens in localities where Muslims are in the majority. According to the medium case forecast of just 20% Muslim population in Europe by 2050 means whole cities may be sharia based undemocratic freedom less extensions the hell holes most of these barbaric people come from. Already in some German locations of Bavaria where's there more than 60% Muslims, police in ever attended in large numbers. Unthinkable that just one police officer can go do his duty.

Making up stuff doesn't make it so.

That's just what those darstadly Muslims want you to think!

;)
 
I seriously don't get it. I know you're too intelligent to believe that a full-time employed, tax-paying construction worker is a net burden on other tax-payers - if only he's a foreigner. Yet this seems to be exactly what you're insinuating.
And I know you're too intelligent to believe that following the painfully predictable leftist playbook of insinuating your opponent is a bigot is an effective way to construct a sound argument. Hold yourself to a higher standard than that.

Try seriously getting this: a full-time employed, tax-paying construction worker is of course a net burden on other taxpayers, if he's employed by the state, at the expense of the taxpayers, to construct stuff the taxpayers don't benefit from. For example, new windows, for buildings that already have perfectly serviceable windows and will continue to have them unless the government deliberately breaks them. Or, for another example, housing for migrants the government deliberately brought in whom the taxpayers don't benefit from.

You're changing the topic there. Of course the net wage of of a worker the government pays ulitmately comes out of other tax payers' pockets, but we were talking about whether or not it was proper to use his gross including all social security payments et cetera to gauge how much he costs them. Since I am not claiming that the real cost is zero, only that the real cost cannot be derived from gross payments, it suffices if his taxes exceed the value of the services he receives from the government outside of his wage itself.
 
I seriously don't get it. I know you're too intelligent to believe that a full-time employed, tax-paying construction worker is a net burden on other tax-payers - if only he's a foreigner. Yet this seems to be exactly what you're insinuating.
And I know you're too intelligent to believe that following the painfully predictable leftist playbook of insinuating your opponent is a bigot is an effective way to construct a sound argument. Hold yourself to a higher standard than that.

Try seriously getting this: a full-time employed, tax-paying construction worker is of course a net burden on other taxpayers, if he's employed by the state, at the expense of the taxpayers, to construct stuff the taxpayers don't benefit from. For example, new windows, for buildings that already have perfectly serviceable windows and will continue to have them unless the government deliberately breaks them. Or, for another example, housing for migrants the government deliberately brought in whom the taxpayers don't benefit from.

You're changing the topic there. Of course the net wage of of a worker the government pays ulitmately comes out of other tax payers' pockets, but we were talking about whether or not it was proper to use his gross including all social security payments et cetera to gauge how much he costs them. Since I am not claiming that the real cost is zero, only that the real cost cannot be derived from gross payments, it suffices if his taxes exceed the value of the services he receives from the government outside of his wage itself.

I am not sure that 'migrants the government deliberately brought in whom the taxpayers didn't benefit from' is a valid category in this context.

Sure, you could probably single out a few individuals who fit that description; but overall, migrants the government deliberately bring in usually end up as net payers of tax (ie pay more in tax than they receive in benefits) - even before we look at the even greater net contributions of their descendants.

Government waste - such as buying new windows to replace existing perfectly serviceable windows - would occur (or not) due to incompetence, regardless of immigration. The absence of immigrants doesn't suddenly make incompetent bureaucrats competent.
 
The only migrants a country would benefit from are the skilled varieties that are in short supply in the host country. Those migrants contribute almost immediately by becoming tax payers. The non skilled or refugees are a burden on tax payers and national budgets for years to come because of their unsuitablity, or just uninterest in gaining useful employment. The predominant western suburbs of Sydney which have huge population of Muslims for example have the highest number of unemployment.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom