Europe submits voluntarily

[dystopian]

But over time it'll sort itself out. Also.... worth noting. During WW2 we took in a massive amount of Finish refugees.

How many of these refugees from Finland were followers of teh islam ? Precious few I would wager. You're another one that makes ridiculous comparisons that are worthless.

They were Finnish. Which I assure you, is worse.

 

[jonatha]

[
They were Finnish. Which I assure you, is worse.

Finland's answer to the Village People???

 

[Jokodo]

But over time it'll sort itself out. Also.... worth noting. During WW2 we took in a massive amount of Finish refugees.

How many of these refugees from Finland were followers of teh islam ? Precious few I would wager. You're another one that makes ridiculous comparisons that are worthless.

In '92/'93, some 150,000 (relative to the population, that's roughly equivalent to 1.4 millions for Germany) refugees from the successor states of Yugoslavia came to Austria. A lot of those were Muslims, since the war was bloodiest on Bosnian soil, and the Serb militias were gaining ground fast, being assisted by what had been the federal army. Almost half of them stayed, adding to an already large population of immigrants from Yugoslavia.

Today, we're one of the most prosperous nations in Western Europe, which wasn't the case in 1990.

 

[TSwizzle]

How many of these refugees from Finland were followers of teh islam ? Precious few I would wager. You're another one that makes ridiculous comparisons that are worthless.

In '92/'93, some 150,000 (relative to the population, that's roughly equivalent to 1.4 millions for Germany) refugees from the successor states of Yugoslavia came to Austria. A lot of those were Muslims, since the war was bloodiest on Bosnian soil, and the Serb militias were gaining ground fast, being assisted by what had been the federal army. Almost half of them stayed, adding to an already large population of immigrants from Yugoslavia.

Today, we're one of the most prosperous nations in Western Europe, which wasn't the case in 1990.

I'm confused. I ask a question about WWII refugees (which ended in 1945 I believe) and you come up with another one of your ridiculous comparisons.

 

[Jokodo]

In '92/'93, some 150,000 (relative to the population, that's roughly equivalent to 1.4 millions for Germany) refugees from the successor states of Yugoslavia came to Austria. A lot of those were Muslims, since the war was bloodiest on Bosnian soil, and the Serb militias were gaining ground fast, being assisted by what had been the federal army. Almost half of them stayed, adding to an already large population of immigrants from Yugoslavia.

Today, we're one of the most prosperous nations in Western Europe, which wasn't the case in 1990.

I'm confused. I ask a question about WWII refugees (which ended in 1945 I believe) and you come up with another one of your ridiculous comparisons.

How is it a ridiculous comparison? It's a recent historical instance of a large (as in: comparable to the number Germany might receive in 2015+16 at current rates-large) refugee population with a high percentage of Muslims coming to a country that's culturally similar to Germany without the ensuing collapse you predict.

Historical precedent doesn't confirm your fears. Simple as that. Even when you add the arbitrary restriction that they have to be "Muzzles" in order to count.

 

[maxparrish]

Dystopia, you've gone from trying to be analytical to wallowing in hair-pulling hysterics, creating confusing straw men, and advancing lame micro-objections. Normally I'd simply declare myself the winner and proceed to tutor others. However, I am a patient and compassionate fellow.

So...completely made up numbers....Wait what. ..."Whatever" the actual number it will be, "those" numbers (presumably are you referring to the the completely made up 1000-1500 figures here) demonstrate that at *current* rates of growth they're of deep concern?

So if the *actual* number was say.... 1 per day... that would show that 1500 people a day is a serious problem... at the actual current number of 274 a day. How... the... fuck... does... your... brain... work?

Then you had the remarkable epiphany (below) of "Oh I get it now...". So then what was the purpose of your befuddled histrionics? Perhaps you think a prologue of tantrum will make your claims more convincing?

Starting in May of 2015 the monthly number of asylum seekers increased to 5400, rising to 8100 in July. It continued upward, and in August it rose to 11,800 and in September to 24306. The total coming to 73,000 for the year. EVEN if the numbers level off to 25,000 per month for October, November and December that is another 75,000 which brings the total to 150,000 per year (and if, as you said, the current number is 86,000 as of mid-October, we are right on track).

Oh I get it now... you're still looking at completely arbitrary points in time and extrapolating forward from them. Thinking that because there's been an upward trend over the past few months that therefore those numbers will not only *keep on increasing* (or staying the same) for the next few months...but the next 15 years too.

I've already explained why you can't do that, though.

You've explained nothing, you've merely objected to a valid warning by Swedish Economist Tino Sanandaji, himself an immigrant from Iran. (Discussed next). Your "disbelief" that Sweden could be a magnet for millions more over a 15 year period is not sufficient to alleviate anyone's concerns. The world is a nasty place, and as long as sectarian and national wars rage in the mid-east and Africa, people are going to do all they can to move to a place that provides the most generous dole.

If, on the hand, the upward trend continued arithmetically (say 35K for Oct, 45K for Nov, and 55K for December) then the total would be 210,000 for the year (much more than 180K). As the daily rate rate has already has been close to 1000 per day (25,000 divided by 30 days) the authors speculation is entirely plausible, as is 180K figure for the year....

AND next year? With many millions of displaced or economically challenged persons still seeking to get into Europe, many other nations refusing entry, then any bigger number is plausible...e.g. 30,000 (or more) per month is not out of the question. If so, that could mean 360,000 applications for Sweden in 2016.

Except even if we assume that it will keep on increasing for the foreseeable future and that we get a 180.000 people....
...the number of 1000-1500 a day over the entire year is stilll grossly inflated.
So the author's speculation is NOT plausible.

Your starting to sputter gibberish. How many times must I repeatedly tutor you on the current numbers and trends? But I will undertake the thankless task for the last time.

For five months the number of monthly applications has risen, the first rise in May. By the end of September it was 24,000 a month. If it levels off, the total would be 150,000. If it increases arithmetically, it could be 210,000. If it it increases by the same percentages, its off the scales.

No one said "it would be 1000-1500 a day" for this entire year - no one other than YOU. The article said IF it continues at the current rate, 1000-1500 a day is more than plausible for the remainder of the year...it is ALREADY 800 or more a day. (The Oct 10 edition of DN.se reports the rate in the prior week was now 1285 a day).

So on this point you are "slap your mama" wrong.

And again, that's ignoring the idiotic claim that it'd be 1000-1500 a day for 15 years.

Even if it's that many for 2016... and that's highly unlikely (not to mention, again, a completely made up number)... it won't be for 2017 and beyond. There simply aren't enough refugees to keep that up.

Extrapolations from current trends are not "made up numbers"; although denial of trends is clearly a mind made up.

Yes, we get your continued denial and handwaving. But that is the point, those "ifs" have already happened - generous chain migration into Sweden is a reality. The prior years numbers are in the article.

Pointing out that you make up numbers while treating them as fact is not denial and handwaving. It doesn't matter whether family reunification is a thing in Sweden... you can not simply extrapolate from those numbers and state that the number you arrive at is going to be the actual number ...

.

Your extended windbaggery of denial amounts to little more than unsupported claims of truth based on: "YOU CAN'T" and "MADE UP" and "IT DOES NOT MATTER" and "YOU CAN'T SAY". By the way no one stated that IT WILL BE the number, the economist stated it COULD BE the number (which you keep saying is impossible, offering no proof why that is so).

Yes, "anything is possible", but that was not your original objection. Your objection was the author suggesting that it is possible to have 180k in a year or 1000 to 1500 per month. If your backing off your absolutist claims then say so.

I never said (certainly not in 'absolutist' terms) that 180k a year was impossible. In fact, I explicitly granted that it was possible. What I *did* say was that it was impossible to have 1000-1500 a month for 15 years.

Yes you did say that. And you did not provide any supported reason that it is impossible. Your huffing and puffing indignation is not sufficient to convince anyone other than your fellow true believers.

You have made a claim that 1000 or more a day in the future is impossible. Prove it. Prove to us that the 10s of millions seeking to escape war and poverty will evaporate.

You can't, hence your claim is bogus.

 

[Jokodo]

Extrapolations from current trends are not "made up numbers"; although denial of trends is clearly a mind made up.

So you're saying bilby's extrapolation is correct, and anyone who doubts that the refugees entering Sweden per day will exceed the mass of the planet before my kid's out of college is in denial?

 

[dystopian]

Dystopia, you've gone from trying to be analytical to wallowing in hair-pulling hysterics,

The only people wallowing in hysterics are the people who think the muslims are invading.

Normally I'd simply declare myself the winner and proceed to tutor others. However, I am a patient and compassionate fellow.

I wish I could just declare myself the winner. Life must be so easy for you.

Then you had the remarkable epiphany (below) of "Oh I get it now...". So then what was the purpose of your befuddled histrionics? Perhaps you think a prologue of tantrum will make your claims more convincing?

Did you miss the sarcasm?

You've explained nothing, you've merely objected to a valid warning by Swedish Economist Tino Sanandaji, himself an immigrant from Iran.

I did explain, you just didn't understand my explanation that the warning you claim is valid is in fact not valid.

Incidentally, him being an immigrant doesn't lend any weight to his claims.

Your "disbelief" that Sweden could be a magnet for millions more over a 15 year period is not sufficient to alleviate anyone's concerns.

Perhaps surprising to some, but your belief that it could be is also not sufficient to raise concerns.

AND next year? With many millions of displaced or economically challenged persons still seeking to get into Europe, many other nations refusing entry, then any bigger number is plausible...e.g. 30,000 (or more) per month is not out of the question. If so, that could mean 360,000 applications for Sweden in 2016.

Sure. And some mad scientist could engineer a pig that can fly.

Doesn't mean I'm going to hold my breath.

Your starting to sputter gibberish. How many times must I repeatedly tutor you on the current numbers and trends? But I will undertake the thankless task for the last time.

For five months the number of monthly applications has risen, the first rise in May. By the end of September it was 24,000 a month. If it levels off, the total would be 150,000. If it increases arithmetically, it could be 210,000. If it it increases by the same percentages, its off the scales.

No one said "it would be 1000-1500 a day" for this entire year - no one other than YOU. The article said IF it continues at the current rate, 1000-1500 a day is more than plausible for the remainder of the year...it is ALREADY 800 or more a day. (The Oct 10 edition of DN.se reports the rate in the prior week was now 1285 a day).

It should be obvious that *i* never said it would be 1000-1500 a day for the entire year. And the whole point of the disagreement isn't that you can find frames of time when the rate is x a day; but the ridiculous claim which the argument makes, and which you still seem to take seriously despite its utter batshit crazy nature, is the 1000-1500 a day for *15* years.

Extrapolations from current trends are not "made up numbers"; although denial of trends is clearly a mind made up.

1) Extrapolated numbers are by definition made up, since the things that they quantify concern hypothetical things, not *actual* things.
2) As repeatedly explained by both myself and others, taking a thin slice of time where you have extreme numbers caused by temporary factors (such as say a war), and then extrapolating from those numbers over long time periods, simply doesn't work; more than that, it will never yield credible projections no matter what the subject. Insisting on extrapolating based on such numbers anyway is either an extraordinarily ignorant thing to do that will fuck up your projections beyond usability, or an incredibly dishonest thing to do for the purposes of arriving at intentionally high numbers of something in order to scare people. Needlessly to say, it is obvious you're just trying to fuel nire fear.

By the way no one stated that IT WILL BE the number, the economist stated it COULD BE the number (which you keep saying is impossible, offering no proof why that is so).

I think you sounded more convincing when you weren't effectively conceding that the number is entirely hypothetical.

I *could* win the lottery next month.

Yes you did say that.

No, I did not. Please provide a post number in which I stated 180.000 a year was *impossible*.

And you did not provide any supported reason that it is impossible.

You mean I didn't provide any reason that you accept.

Incidentally, I don't even need to provide any evidence or argument, since I'm not the one making a positive claim here; you are. You have the burden of proof. You should know how said burden works, given you're a regular on this forum.

Your huffing and puffing indignation is not sufficient to convince anyone other than your fellow true believers.

Are you under the impression that *your* huffing and puffing indignation is sufficient to do so where mine isn't?

You have made a claim that 1000 or more a day in the future is impossible. Prove it. Prove to us that the 10s of millions seeking to escape war and poverty will evaporate.

Again, that's not how the burden of proof work. You can't prove a negative. *You* are the one throwing your backing behind the claim that 1000-1500 asylum seekers in Sweden a day for 15 years is plausible, therefore *you* have the burden of proof. All I've seen so far is the kind of math that's barely just a 'and that yields 666 which is the number of the beast' removed from numerology.

 

[bilby]

Perfect response to an anti-Mosque rally by Britain First in Burton-on-Trent

 

[untermensche]

The other. THE OTHER!

It smells.

It steals. It rapes. It can't be trusted.

It has big noses and balding heads and warts on it's hands.

It sleeps in the mud and transmits disease through it's gaze.

It can turn itself into a bat and can take over the minds of dogs.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

The OTHER!!

Beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[angelo]

Your ABC. Make sure you don't miss the the 7.30 Report.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...n-men-involved-in-sydney-terror-raids/6866562

Are you so ignorant to think that millions of people with different opinions can't be produced?

Have you ever once met a Muslim and got to know them?

They are human beings.

The exact same thing as European Christians.

Just as likable and despicable.

I'm retired now, but I was a sales rep selling food stuff to various businesses, among whom were many Muslims running Asian and middle Eastern grocery stores. Does that answer your question? Made friends with some of them. Still see some around actually. Some of those businesses closed up unannounced, and the company I worked for lost considerable amount of money. A rule was instigated that middle Eastern businesses had to be COD.
During the Iraq wars, anti Americanism was 100% by all of them. Not once did I run into a muzzie who condemned a terrorist attack by any Islamic terrorist group. Before all of that, I was neutral.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Send all economic migrants right back where ever they came from. I understand it ain't easy as they destroy all their papers, which leaves the problem of sorting out where they really are from, but I'm sure there are ways of finding out.
By getting rid of these freeloaders, it makes it so much easier to help the genuine refugees.

If you live in Broome, and decide to move to Perth because there are better paying jobs in Perth, should the people of Perth send you back where you came from?

This works between areas of similar economic level. It's a disaster if there's too much migration from poor areas to rich areas.

The thing is a big part of the standard of living is the ratio of capital to workers. Migrants from poor areas generally bring little capital. (Note that capital in this context includes worker educations.)

 

[untermensche]

Are you so ignorant to think that millions of people with different opinions can't be produced?

Have you ever once met a Muslim and got to know them?

They are human beings.

The exact same thing as European Christians.

Just as likable and despicable.

I'm retired now, but I was a sales rep selling food stuff to various businesses, among whom were many Muslims running Asian and middle Eastern grocery stores. Does that answer your question? Made friends with some of them. Still see some around actually. Some of those businesses closed up unannounced, and the company I worked for lost considerable amount of money. A rule was instigated that middle Eastern businesses had to be COD.
During the Iraq wars, anti Americanism was 100% by all of them. Not once did I run into a muzzie who condemned a terrorist attack by any Islamic terrorist group. Before all of that, I was neutral.

Have you condemned the terrorist attack of the Iraqi people conducted by the US and it's henchmen in 2003?

Or is it only necessary to condemn small and minor acts of terrorism?

 

[bilby]

If you live in Broome, and decide to move to Perth because there are better paying jobs in Perth, should the people of Perth send you back where you came from?

This works between areas of similar economic level. It's a disaster if there's too much migration from poor areas to rich areas.

The thing is a big part of the standard of living is the ratio of capital to workers. Migrants from poor areas generally bring little capital. (Note that capital in this context includes worker educations.)

So if people move from Mississippi to Maryland, they should be arrested and sent back where they came from?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This works between areas of similar economic level. It's a disaster if there's too much migration from poor areas to rich areas.

The thing is a big part of the standard of living is the ratio of capital to workers. Migrants from poor areas generally bring little capital. (Note that capital in this context includes worker educations.)

So if people move from Mississippi to Maryland, they should be arrested and sent back where they came from?

That's still close enough in level to not be a big deal.

 

[bilby]

So if people move from Mississippi to Maryland, they should be arrested and sent back where they came from?

That's still close enough in level to not be a big deal.

Then so is Syria to Greece.

 

[angelo]

That's still close enough in level to not be a big deal.

Then so is Syria to Greece.

Isn't Greece in enough financial stress? They need those freeloaders like a hole in the head!

 

[skepticalbip]

Then so is Syria to Greece.

Isn't Greece in enough financial stress? They need those freeloaders like a hole in the head!

And with the economic situation in Greece today it could be more likely that there would be Greek economic refugees fleeing to Syria if Syria has a decent social safety net program.

 

[bilby]

Isn't Greece in enough financial stress? They need those freeloaders like a hole in the head!

And with the economic situation in Greece today it could be more likely that there would be Greek economic refugees fleeing to Syria if Syria has a decent social safety net program.

Tell that to the Lesbians. The number of uninvited Syrians that they have been trying to accommodate suggests that Lesbos is much more attractive than Damascus. Why else would so many Syrians be seeking to live the Lesbian lifestyle?

The penetration of Lesbian ports of entry by Syrian refugees is of real concern to the Greek government.




OK, I admit that this post only really exists for the purpose of single-entendres

 

[whichphilosophy]

Are you so ignorant to think that millions of people with different opinions can't be produced?

Have you ever once met a Muslim and got to know them?

They are human beings.

The exact same thing as European Christians.

Just as likable and despicable.

I'm retired now, but I was a sales rep selling food stuff to various businesses, among whom were many Muslims running Asian and middle Eastern grocery stores. Does that answer your question? Made friends with some of them. Still see some around actually. Some of those businesses closed up unannounced, and the company I worked for lost considerable amount of money. A rule was instigated that middle Eastern businesses had to be COD.
During the Iraq wars, anti Americanism was 100% by all of them. Not once did I run into a muzzie who condemned a terrorist attack by any Islamic terrorist group. Before all of that, I was neutral.

The Americans invaded Iraq on a false premise sending many of its own soldiers to their deaths where many more were injured. The war was built an a lie. There were no WDMs. Iraq had used Gas which it bought from Germany. However hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24547256

There are other studies. Now we have eternal war where for years the civilians have been caught in the cross fire.