Evidence for the great age of the Universe

[T.G.G. Moogly]

For the theist creationist there are two possibilities, god popped up out of nowhere, or god always was and will be.

If god whipped up the universe out of nothing and got can wink it to nothingness, the unverse is finite.

Nether creationismnor scientific origins of the unverse are provable. The question in scince is what makes sense based on what we do know and can demonstrate.

Claims of a 4000 year old Earth can be refuted by standard scientific techniques. Of course that could always have made things that way. And that us the refuge of the theists.

An infinite universe is not provable. The Sherlock Holmes Method applies. Make a list of the possibil;ities. Eliminate the improbable. What ever reamins is the likely solution.

The Laws If Thermodynamics can not be proven, it can be said no exceptions have been observed. When the system boundary is made infinite ir can seem to break down. The possibility of the thermal death of the universe, universal equilibrium. I counter from thermodynamics, matter and energy can not be created or destroyed, only forms change. In an infinite unverse energy is never lost. The universe in totality is a perpetual motion machine. Same for a bounded universe. Energy in total can never change.

Never thought of it that way but that's quite true. It's simple to disprove the earth is mere thousands of years old. One doesn't need to know what the cosmos was like before the big bang that stoked our universe in order to disprove a claim that sacred writings are scientifically accurate.

Belief in an earth that is thousands of years old is a religious claim. If you're going to talk religion - abracadabra - find another religion to dispute it.

 

[none]

prove an infinite universe?
newton drew a map, the proof was no collapse

 

[Jokodo]

prove an infinite universe?
newton drew a map, the proof was no collapse

And of course he considered the observed expansion of the universe in his calculations?

 

[Rhea]

But if science showed (or God said) that the universe has always existed that wouldn't present any ontological conflict

Yahbut, God doesn't say nuthin' no more. So that cain't happen.

 

[Rhea]

Are you a Young Earth Creationist?

Are you one of those people who believe that the universe was created nine thousand years after the domestication of dogs?

Not a Christian.

I noticed one thread says the universe has an age and therefore had a beginning and another thread says the universe is eternal. Seems like situational science.

The astute reader will notice that Random answered "I am not a Christian" to a question that did not ask him whether he was Christian.
Why would a person do that?
Some possibilities:

• He is not a person
• He thinks he's funny
• He thinks he's cagey
• He is a Young Earth Creationist who is not a christian but he's ashamed of it
• He is not a truth-teller
• Several of the above

I suppose it doesn't matter. They all behave the same.

 

[Rhea]

Neither the post or the article it references addresses minimum ages for the universes,

The observant reader will notice the presence of a greater-than sign ( > ) in the OP, indicating "minimum age" for those not innumerate.

 

[Random Person]

Neither the post or the article it references addresses minimum ages for the universes,

The observant reader will notice the presence of a greater-than sign ( > ) in the OP, indicating "minimum age" for those not innumerate.

The article was in no way implying the universe is eternal. The greater than symbol was used to demarc time periods.

Observation is best accompanied by comprehension.

 

[Rhea]

Neither the post or the article it references addresses minimum ages for the universes,

The observant reader will notice the presence of a greater-than sign ( > ) in the OP, indicating "minimum age" for those not innumerate.

The article was in no way implying the universe is eternal. The greater than symbol was used to demarc time periods.

Observation is best accompanied by comprehension.

Indeed, that is true.
One can't help but comprehend that minimum does not equal eternal and post does not equal article.

 

[Random Person]

The article was in no way implying the universe is eternal. The greater than symbol was used to demarc time periods.

Observation is best accompanied by comprehension.

Indeed, that is true.
One can't help but comprehend that minimum does not equal eternal and post does not equal article.

You're always going on about something.

 

[lpetrich]

The article was in no way implying the universe is eternal.

So what?

The greater than symbol was used to demarc time periods..

Here, it means "greater than" in the usual mathematical sense.

 

[Random Person]

The article was in no way implying the universe is eternal.

So what?

The greater than symbol was used to demarc time periods..

Here, it means "greater than" in the usual mathematical sense.

Ya' we get that.

 

[lpetrich]

I'll collect the distances for the cosmic distance ladder and translate them into light-travel times.

• Earth to Sun: 8m
• Earth to Eris: 12h
• Ground-based parallax -- measurement-error distance: 300 yr
• Hipparcos parallax -- measurement-error distance: 3000 yr
• GAIA parallax -- measurement-error distance (projected): 150,000 yr
• Supernova 1987A light echoes: 160,000 yr
• NGC 4258 water maser: 24,000,000 yr
• Cepheid-variable limit: 50,000,000 yr
• Galaxy surface-brightness fluctuations: 300,000,000 yr
• Type Ia supernovae: 8,000,000,000 yr
• Cosmological modeling: 13,800,000,000 yr

I must concede that the lengths of relativistic jets are not an independent method of finding a lower limit on the Universe's age. Their lengths are found from (distance to source galaxy) * (angular length), and the source-galaxy distances are found with the cosmic-distance ladder.

 

[fromderinside]

It's my understanding that scientific theory is not science. Rather it is a statement based on current knowledge of our understanding of the state of affairs as we understand them now. Theory is a hypothesis, generally accepted as the best given our current understanding.

 

[bilby]

It's my understanding that scientific theory is not science.

Then your understanding is a sad indictment of the parlous state of our educational systems.

Rather it is a statement based on current knowledge of our understanding of the state of affairs as we understand them now.

aka - 'Science'.

Theory is a hypothesis, generally accepted as the best given our current understanding.

Yes. And if that theory has been determined to be the best by 'scientific' means, we call it 'Science'.

 

[lpetrich]

I'll look more closely at parallaxes.

They are usually reported as (measured value) +- (error of measured value), like (mean) +- (standard deviation). The measured value might be less than the error, or even negative -- it's important to keep the negative values to avoid a bias in the positive direction.

The distance is proportional to the reciprocal of the parallax, and to lowest order, its relative error is (error) / (measured value). So to get a reliable result, (measured value) must be significantly greater than (error). If (measured value) is not much greater than (error), it may give a distance value a factor of 2 or more off. So using the error for the distance will give a good approximation of the maximum measurable distance. A reliably measurable distance would be at least 5 times less, using the 5-sigma convention of particle physics.

The parallax numbers again:

• Ground-based: 0.01 arcsec = 10 mas -- 300 ly
• Hipparcos: 1 mas -- 3,000 ly
• GAIA DR2 (mag < 15): 0.04 mas -- 80,000 ly
• GAIA target max (mag < 12): 0.016 mas -- 200,000 ly
• GAIA target min (mag < 12): 0.005 mas -- 650,000 ly

From Gaia DR2 contents - Cosmos, Gaia Mission Science Performance - Cosmos

So GAIA will likely provide direct evidence of stars farther away than 6,000 - 10,000 light years. Meaning that either (1) the stars' light was created in flight or (2) the Universe is older than 10,000 years.

 

[Tigers!]

Are you a Young Earth Creationist?

Are you one of those people who believe that the universe was created nine thousand years after the domestication of dogs?

Not a Christian.

I noticed one thread says the universe has an age and therefore had a beginning and another thread says the universe is eternal. Seems like situational science.

The astute reader will notice that Random answered "I am not a Christian" to a question that did not ask him whether he was Christian.
Why would a person do that?
Some possibilities:

• He is not a person
• He thinks he's funny
• He thinks he's cagey
• He is a Young Earth Creationist who is not a christian but he's ashamed of it
• He is not a truth-teller
• Several of the above

I suppose it doesn't matter. They all behave the same.

I am surprised that a YEC would not be a christian or religious. Have you every met a YEC who is not religious? i never have. I assume the default position on these fora would be YEC = religious.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Have you every met a YEC who is not religious? i never have. I assume the default position on these fora would be YEC = religious.

There's also the condition of idiocy.

I knew an atheist who questioned everything about the age of the universe, the age of the earth, the history of life, with 'How do you know? WERE YOU THERE!?!?'
He actually leaned towards a young earth, simply because he couldn't imagine the waste of time involved in an old Earth. "A planet forming out of cosmic dust? What's the point?'

 

[lpetrich]

I knew an atheist who questioned everything about the age of the universe, the age of the earth, the history of life, with 'How do you know? WERE YOU THERE!?!?'
He actually leaned towards a young earth, simply because he couldn't imagine the waste of time involved in an old Earth. "A planet forming out of cosmic dust? What's the point?'

An atheist who parrots creationist arguments? I'm suspecting that this is some fundie Xian who posed as an atheist.

 

[Random Person]

Where'd we land on the eternal universe? Did it have a beginning or is it eternal?

 

[Juma]

Where'd we land on the eternal universe? Did it have a beginning or is it eternal?

Nobody knows.