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Father arrested and jailed for calling his biologically female daughter "she": this week in the strange death of Canada

I strongly disagree.

Children usually strongly identify with one sex or the other years and years before they have even the vaguest feelings of sexual attraction to anyone.

This used to be the case. It is not the case now. A large number of kids being treated as transgender do not have a persistent history of dysphoria or of identifying as the opposite sex. That's the case with this child. They had no history of dysphoria or gender confusion at all. It came on rapidly, along with several other mental health issues - including intense and inappropriate crushes, attempts to self-harm, and other misbehaviors.
 
The judge forbid the father from using 'she' pronouns because the judge thought he should be using 'he' pronouns.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the father was using 'she' pronouns for bullying purposes.

What is your evidence of this?

What evidence can there be to explain a lack of evidence?

There's no evidence that a father continuing to use the pronoun he's used since his child was born is anything more than his belief that the child is too young to make this huge irrevocable decision.
Tom
To the contrary...

He abided by the order to use male pronouns for a year.
In 2019, Hoogland abided by the court order, hoping to get his daughter off testosterone. However, in January 2020, the highest court in British Columbia declared that the child should continue to take testosterone. It also imposed a conduct order on Hoogland that he must continue to refer to his biological female child by male pronouns.
 
If a 14 yo identified as a black kid, despite being nordic pale, would you find it moot to compel the parent to refer to their child as "Leroy" because that's what the child wants and the child is offended if the parent fails to do so?
A parent that deliberately and persistently harasses or verbally abuses a child for whatever reason is an abusive jackass which makes me wonder about that parent's fitness as a parent.

So.
Show some evidence that the father was doing that.

Don't just tell me about some PC ideological assumptions. Don't tell me you can read his mind. Don't tell me that a judge said something.
Give me evidence that he, the father, was deliberately being abusive.
Because I'm not seeing any, quite the opposite. I'm seeing a bunch of ideological idiots assuming that the father is abusive because he doesn't agree with their gender assignment. And a bullying judge, who can jail people for using words they prefer not to hear.
Out loud.

Tom


ETA ~Is the judge male or female? I'd prefer to use the appropriate pronoun when referring to a judge.~
 
I strongly disagree.

Children usually strongly identify with one sex or the other years and years before they have even the vaguest feelings of sexual attraction to anyone.

This used to be the case. It is not the case now. A large number of kids being treated as transgender do not have a persistent history of dysphoria or of identifying as the opposite sex. That's the case with this child. They had no history of dysphoria or gender confusion at all. It came on rapidly, along with several other mental health issues - including intense and inappropriate crushes, attempts to self-harm, and other misbehaviors.

Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.
 
This thread stinks to high heaven from start to finish. I did some checking and this story is only being shared on right-wing and conservative christian sites. It's even being shared on stormfront. What's bad about it is we only have the father's side of this story while he's trying to raise money off it. Family law is a perfect way to do such a scam because no one is allowed to dispute his story with facts. Child/family legal proceedings are supposed to be kept private. He may have been locked up for telling his possibly made up story and it has nothing to do with what he's calling his child.

New York Post

For the most part, however, you will not find anything at all critical of transgender ideology on any left-leaning site. This isn't evidence of something stinking, it's simply evidence of partisan solidarity.

On the other hand, if you look to feminist sites, which are nearly all left-leaning, you will find this as well as other articles and items that don't swallow the trans ideology whole hog without thinking.
 
I did some checking and this story is only being shared on right-wing and conservative christian sites.

It's being shared on TFT. That's the only way I would know about it.

Is TFT a "right wing source"? A "conservative Christian source"? Both?
Tom

It was shared here by a right-winger from Australia. Feigning ignorance is not a become trait.

"Right Winger" is such a convenient go-to insult. I've been called a right-winger multiple times, for not towing the line of whatever the current progressive bugaboo is. This is despite me being pretty damned liberal overall. But hey, always nice to know you can poison the well with a simple allegation of political preference.
 
If a 14 yo identified as a black kid, despite being nordic pale, would you find it moot to compel the parent to refer to their child as "Leroy" because that's what the child wants and the child is offended if the parent fails to do so?
A parent that deliberately and persistently harasses or verbally abuses a child for whatever reason is an abusive jackass which makes me wonder about that parent's fitness as a parent.

So.
Show some evidence that the father was doing that.
Bringing this child's difficulties to the public eye is harassment. The evidence for that is he did it (it is one of the reasons for the contempt of court for violating a court order). He consistently refers to his child as a "she" against the child's wishes and apparently is causing the child emotional harm. He has been told that. Now, I realize that this is difficult for some people to understand, but it doesn't matter if this parent agrees or not with the child's gender. It doesn't matter what his intent is. He continues to persist in emotionally harming his child.

The idea that this is about what a judge wishes to hear is literally off point. It is, in fact, one of the most stupid emotional appeals I have read.
 
Define biological female.

Of the sex that normally produces large immobile gametes.

It isn't clear to me that a definition that includes the word "normally" is effective in a context that involves an uncommon subset of persons.

For example, suppose we were having a discussion about a lesbian teenager. Someone writes, "define female." and you respond with "of the sex that is normally attracted to males." That isn't at all effective in context.

Now perhaps you could change the wording of your definition and it could be more effective. I don't know. I'm not over-analyzing it. Or perhaps you could try again.

As far as I am concerned, when people say "sex is binary," I think they are wrong and when people say that sex is fluid I think that is also an over-simplifcation. To me, and I could be wrong, sex has multi-dimensional characteristics, not merely one, and some of these characteristics may be fluid, binary, or bimodal, but overall, I think that sex is bimodal.

Transgender people are not an uncommon subset when it comes to the biological aspects of sex. There are vanishingly few transgender people who are even a tiny bit intersex. They are nearly all perfectly normal specimens of either male or female human biology.

Aside from that, I'm actually using the definition of female that biologists use, so you sticking a made-up hypothetical definition based on sexual orientation is irrelevant. Why not go that step further and take it upon yourself to define female as "likes tangerines and tap shoes"?

And you can believe whatever baseless belief you want... but sex is binary among humans, among all mammals, and among the vast majority of vertebrates. Literally binary. There are only two options: male or female.

Characteristics associated with sexual dimorphism show great variety. Boobs vary in size and shape, so do penises. And sometimes there are development disorders that affect primary or secondary sexual characteristics. But sex itself is binary, not bimodal.

Primary sexual characteristics are reproductive organs. They are binarily dimorphic along sexual lines, but sometimes errors occur during development. Size, shape, etc. of those organs show a range of possibilities, but they are not bimodal. There's no in-between state of half uterus half vas deferens. There is no overlap.

Secondary sexual characteristics are those triggered at puberty. These are naturally dimorphic and predominantly triggered by hormones, on instructions governed by the pituitary gland. These characteristics differ by sex, and if functioning properly do not have overlap. However, as they are triggered by hormones, processes that interrupt or alter hormone production can cause the development of secondary sexual characteristics that are associated with the opposite sex. That includes the effect of exogenous hormones. A female taking testosterone will develop facial hair. A male whose testosterone production is interrupted by an intersex condition may develop breasts.

Tertiary sexual characteristics are those that tend to cluster by sex, but those ARE bimodal and are not dimorphic. Thus, males generally tend to be taller and have larger hands and feet. But while it's uncommon, it's not rare for some females to reach heights in the normal male range and have large hands and feet.

Sex itself, however, is not defined by sexual characteristics. Rather, those sexual characteristics are prompted by sex. And sex is binary. The chromosomal pairing that generates a fertilized egg dictates the development of gamete production organs. And there are only two gametes. No third gamete exists among humans, nor among all mammals. No in-between gamete exists. There are two, and only two, gametes.
 
This thread stinks to high heaven from start to finish. I did some checking and this story is only being shared on right-wing and conservative christian sites. It's even being shared on stormfront. What's bad about it is we only have the father's side of this story while he's trying to raise money off it. Family law is a perfect way to do such a scam because no one is allowed to dispute his story with facts. Child/family legal proceedings are supposed to be kept private. He may have been locked up for telling his possibly made up story and it has nothing to do with what he's calling his child.

New York Post

For the most part, however, you will not find anything at all critical of transgender ideology on any left-leaning site. This isn't evidence of something stinking, it's simply evidence of partisan solidarity.

That is your speculation. The mother, experts, and the teen are in disagreement with the father. All of these others are likely trying to keep the teen's info private. Some have to legally. So, the only narrative and evidence presented is ultimately sourced to the father. That doesn't make his narrative correct or news agencies that don't want to cover a single-sourced item (bias) as biased themselves.

Here's an example. You wrote that the teen had no history of dysphoria or gender confusion. You are ultimately getting that from the father. You have no access to any refutations that might exist because those refutations if they exist are private. You don't actually want to know, but you are willing to say you do know because it is consistent with your ideological view, much like the right-wing newspapers in question. Responsible news needs to get both sides to a story but that isn't possible here. I am not saying there is no bias in other news....yes, there is....but you are claiming that is definitely going on here while being biased yourself.
 
If dad was like "I am skeptical that you are transgender and will not desist, but I accept YOU come what may" is this an acceptable communication to the child?

the court forebode him from doing that.
Are you sure about that?

I quoted it:
the judge's order includes:
a) CD shall be restrained from: i. attempting to persuade AB to abandon treatment for gender dysphoria; ii. addressing AB by his birth name; and iii. referring to AB as a girl or with female pronouns whether to AB directly or to third parties;

The father was ordered by the court to affirm the child's identity.
 
This thread stinks to high heaven from start to finish. I did some checking and this story is only being shared on right-wing and conservative christian sites. It's even being shared on stormfront. What's bad about it is we only have the father's side of this story while he's trying to raise money off it. Family law is a perfect way to do such a scam because no one is allowed to dispute his story with facts. Child/family legal proceedings are supposed to be kept private. He may have been locked up for telling his possibly made up story and it has nothing to do with what he's calling his child.

New York Post

For the most part, however, you will not find anything at all critical of transgender ideology on any left-leaning site. This isn't evidence of something stinking, it's simply evidence of partisan solidarity.

On the other hand, if you look to feminist sites, which are nearly all left-leaning, you will find this as well as other articles and items that don't swallow the trans ideology whole hog without thinking.

The NY Post is a right leaning rag.
 
Legalities aside,
Suppose the child wanted to bang a neighbor dude because he promised to buy her a pony. She really really wants that pony. Would the father refusing her direct wishes be "abusive"?
Tom

There is no reason to bring your personal fantasies into this discussion, is there?

Typical dodge.
Ignore what I wrote and make it a personal insult.
Tom

In what world does one live where a CHILD wants to 'bang' a neighbor dude for a pony?

I did not write that hypothetical. YOU did.
 
Are you sure about that?

I quoted it:
the judge's order includes:
a) CD shall be restrained from: i. attempting to persuade AB to abandon treatment for gender dysphoria; ii. addressing AB by his birth name; and iii. referring to AB as a girl or with female pronouns whether to AB directly or to third parties;

The father was ordered by the court to affirm the child's identity.

Nothing in that quote requires an affirmation. Hell, we don't even know if the quote is real.
 
Are you sure about that?

I quoted it:
the judge's order includes:
a) CD shall be restrained from: i. attempting to persuade AB to abandon treatment for gender dysphoria; ii. addressing AB by his birth name; and iii. referring to AB as a girl or with female pronouns whether to AB directly or to third parties;

The father was ordered by the court to affirm the child's identity.

"Be restrained from calling him a girl" is very different from "be compelled to call him a boy". Is this what passes for reading comprehension where you are from?
 
It isn't clear to me that a definition that includes the word "normally" is effective in a context that involves an uncommon subset of persons.

For example, suppose we were having a discussion about a lesbian teenager. Someone writes, "define female." and you respond with "of the sex that is normally attracted to males." That isn't at all effective in context.

Now perhaps you could change the wording of your definition and it could be more effective. I don't know. I'm not over-analyzing it. Or perhaps you could try again.

As far as I am concerned, when people say "sex is binary," I think they are wrong and when people say that sex is fluid I think that is also an over-simplifcation. To me, and I could be wrong, sex has multi-dimensional characteristics, not merely one, and some of these characteristics may be fluid, binary, or bimodal, but overall, I think that sex is bimodal.

Transgender people are not an uncommon subset when it comes to the biological aspects of sex. There are vanishingly few transgender people who are even a tiny bit intersex. They are nearly all perfectly normal specimens of either male or female human biology.

Aside from that, I'm actually using the definition of female that biologists use, so you sticking a made-up hypothetical definition based on sexual orientation is irrelevant. Why not go that step further and take it upon yourself to define female as "likes tangerines and tap shoes"?

And you can believe whatever baseless belief you want... but sex is binary among humans, among all mammals, and among the vast majority of vertebrates. Literally binary. There are only two options: male or female.

Characteristics associated with sexual dimorphism show great variety. Boobs vary in size and shape, so do penises. And sometimes there are development disorders that affect primary or secondary sexual characteristics. But sex itself is binary, not bimodal.

Primary sexual characteristics are reproductive organs. They are binarily dimorphic along sexual lines, but sometimes errors occur during development. Size, shape, etc. of those organs show a range of possibilities, but they are not bimodal. There's no in-between state of half uterus half vas deferens. There is no overlap.

Secondary sexual characteristics are those triggered at puberty. These are naturally dimorphic and predominantly triggered by hormones, on instructions governed by the pituitary gland. These characteristics differ by sex, and if functioning properly do not have overlap. However, as they are triggered by hormones, processes that interrupt or alter hormone production can cause the development of secondary sexual characteristics that are associated with the opposite sex. That includes the effect of exogenous hormones. A female taking testosterone will develop facial hair. A male whose testosterone production is interrupted by an intersex condition may develop breasts.

Tertiary sexual characteristics are those that tend to cluster by sex, but those ARE bimodal and are not dimorphic. Thus, males generally tend to be taller and have larger hands and feet. But while it's uncommon, it's not rare for some females to reach heights in the normal male range and have large hands and feet.

Sex itself, however, is not defined by sexual characteristics. Rather, those sexual characteristics are prompted by sex. And sex is binary. The chromosomal pairing that generates a fertilized egg dictates the development of gamete production organs. And there are only two gametes. No third gamete exists among humans, nor among all mammals. No in-between gamete exists. There are two, and only two, gametes.

Nope.

Well, first, let's skip over your conflation between gender and sex. We'll stick to biology for now as well. You are sticking to phenotype instead of genotype but even so ignoring a good number of in-between states. Therefore, for all of these reasons, your overall discussion is very narrow and biased.

Your dictionary-like definition "Of the sex that normally produces large immobile gametes" has to discuss typical phenotype because the genotype doesn't always result in expression into phenotype neatly or in a binary way as distinct from an opposite "Of the sex that normally produces sperm." The reality is that examining chromosomes is but one way to look at things, but even doing so results in a spectrum, not binary since any number of portions of X or Y can be present. Even more so, at the cellular level, any % of cells may be XX, XY, XXY, XX + 1/15th Y, representing a nearly continuous portion of genotype of either or both, and the phenotypes likewise result in a host of possibilities.

So, some significant part of the characteristics are indeed bimodal, making biological sex itself even more complicated than bimodal, which is exactly what I wrote.

Here is some additional reading for you from a peer-reviewed biology journal:
https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943#/spectrum
 
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