Learner said:
The threat of hell doesn't come till later in the bible after all the covenants and laws before.Christians such as myself believe; God by the covenants made were then broken,then made again and broken again should then by the acts not following those laws.God must then destroy man for failure to keep to what man promised. God does not lie or withdraw his side of the agreements and it pains him to do so. Hence Jesus .. the negotiator the last chance, the last hope. It was He that gave the final ultimatum between heaven or hell.
Actually, "man" didn't promise anything. Some men might have, but I'm certain I did not.
In fact, the people Yahweh threatens are not the same people who agreed to any covenant.
Regardless, Yahweh's behavior would be hugely evil even if every person had broken a promise to him. Torturing people for eternity for breaking a promise is evil.
Learner said:
The discription is;' Most truthful and loving God. What he said he will do, he must do according the promises made several times between man and God. It is understandable for me that there can be no more covenants. The threat of hell is a deterent more so to the things, like the days of Noah mentioned by Jesus.
But if you want to go with the Old Testament, I will point out the victims of his attrocious commands did not sign up for any covenant. Let me give you an example (
from my moral case against Christianity):
Numbers 31 describes how Yahweh commanded Moses to carry out an attack on other people, and the events that unfolded after that.
GWEB:
Numbers 31
31:1 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward you shall be gathered to your people. 31:3 Moses spoke to the people, saying, Arm you men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian, to execute Yahweh's vengeance on Midian. 31:4 Of every tribe one thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, you shall send to the war. 31:5 So there were delivered, out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 31:6 Moses sent them, one thousand of every tribe, to the war, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the vessels of the sanctuary and the trumpets for the alarm in his hand. 31:7 They warred against Midian, as Yahweh commanded Moses; and they killed every male. 31:8 They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain: Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they killed with the sword. 31:9 The children of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their livestock, and all their flocks, and all their goods, they took for a prey. 31:10 All their cities in the places in which they lived, and all their encampments, they burnt with fire. 31:11 They took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of man and of animal. 31:12 They brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the children of Israel, to the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan at Jericho.
So, those ancient Israelite troops attacked and killed every single man, apparently regardless of whether those men were combatants or not, whether they were too ill or old to fight, or whether they had surrendered. They also took the women and their children as spoils of war. In other words, they took them as slaves as slaves, and brought them to Moses and to one of Yahweh’s priests.
The soldiers surely would expect to take women as sex slaves – their consent was not required, as usual -, raping them repeatedly – in accordance to Yahweh’s laws.
What was Moses’s reaction?
GWEB:
Numbers 31
31:13 Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them outside of the camp. 31:14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who came from the service of the war. 31:15 Moses said to them, Have you saved all the women alive? 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against Yahweh in the matter of Peor, and so the plague was among the congregation of Yahweh. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 31:18 But all the girls, who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
So, Moses was not angry because his troops wanted to enslave children – both boys and girls -, or because they wanted to enslave adult women, in general.
Instead, Moses was angry because the soldiers had kept the women who were not virgins alive, and apparently – unless he was lying about his motivation, but why would he? - he believed that all of the women who were not virgin had “caused” the children of Israel to trespass against Yahweh. Furthermore, he believed apparently that those women deserved to be killed for that.
So, Moses commanded that all women who were not virgins be killed. He further commanded that every male child be killed as well.
On the other hand, Moses told his men to keep the virgin girls for themselves - implicitly for sex slavery and repeated rape in the future - if they so choose.
It is not specified what he wanted his men to do with adult women who were virgins – if there were any -, or with girls who were not virgins because they had been raped already. Given context, it seems all non-virgins were to be killed regardless of whether they were adults. As for adult women, also context indicates that they were presumed to be non-virgins – which might or might have been true, but of course does not justify the killings in any way -, and were to be executed. In any event, his command was immoral regardless of how he split the girls and the women between those that were to be killed and those that were to be enslaved and raped whenever their masters chose.
So, in particular, Moses:
1. Falsely blamed all non-virgin women for a plague. Of course, regardless of what some Israelite men did in order to have sex with at most some – surely not all – of those women, those men made their own choices, and in any case, surely blaming those women for a plague was absurd.
2. Murdered all of the boys but kept girls for slavery, including sex slavery and thus repeated rape.
Given that behavior, even independently of other events, one should reckon that Moses was a moral monster, a mass-murderer and mass-rapist – regardless of whether he engaged in mass rape personally, he surely was responsible given his commands.
So, what was Yahweh's reaction?
GWEB:
Numbers 31
31:25 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of animal, you, and Eleazar the priest, and the heads of the fathers' houses of the congregation; 31:27 and divide the prey into two parts: between the men skilled in war, who went out to battle, and all the congregation. 31:28 Levy a tribute to Yahweh of the men of war who went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the cattle, and of the donkeys, and of the flocks: 31:29 take it of their half, and give it to Eleazar the priest, for Yahweh's wave offering. 31:30 Of the children of Israel's half, you shall take one drawn out of every fifty, of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys, and of the flocks, even of all the livestock, and give them to the Levites, who perform the duty of the tent of Yahweh.
Yahweh did not punish Moses or his men, or expressed any disapproval whatsoever, but proceeded to give instructions as to how to divide the spoils of war, including the people taken as slaves.
Even assuming for the sake of the argument that there was no human sacrifice and Yahweh’s “wave offering” was “just” giving some captives to the priests as slaves, the fact remains that Yahweh instructed Moses – and, through him, many other ancient Israelite men – to engage in mass slavery and mass rape. Yahweh is another moral monster, like Moses.
So, what happened then?
They just proceeded to divide the spoils, after murdering the captive women and perhaps girls who were not virgins – or who they believed were not virgins, anyway – and the children of those who had children. While it would have been monstrous to do that to a single woman or to a single child, one may point out here that the massacre was massive, as one may reckon from the description.
GWEB:
Numbers 31
31:31 Moses and Eleazar the priest did as Yahweh commanded Moses. 31:32 Now the prey, over and above the booty which the men of war took, was six hundred seventy-five thousand sheep, 31:33 and seventy-two thousand head of cattle, 31:34 and sixty-one thousand donkeys, 31:35 and thirty-two thousand persons in all, of the women who had not known man by lying with him. 31:36 The half, which was the portion of those who went out to war, was in number three hundred thirty-seven thousand five hundred sheep: 31:37 and Yahweh's tribute of the sheep was six hundred seventy-five. 31:38 The cattle were thirty-six thousand; of which Yahweh's tribute was seventy-two. 31:39 The donkeys were thirty thousand five hundred; of which Yahweh's tribute was sixty-one. 31:40 The persons were sixteen thousand; of whom Yahweh's tribute was thirty-two persons. 31:41 Moses gave the tribute, which was Yahweh's wave offering, to Eleazar the priest, as Yahweh commanded Moses. 31:42 Of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided off from the men who warred 31:43 (now the congregation's half was three hundred thirty-seven thousand five hundred sheep, 31:44 and thirty-six thousand head of cattle, 31:45 and thirty thousand five hundred donkeys, 31:46 and sixteen thousand persons), 31:47 even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one drawn out of every fifty, both of man and of animal, and gave them to the Levites, who performed the duty of the tent of Yahweh; as Yahweh commanded Moses. 31:48 The officers who were over the thousands of the army, the captains of thousands, and the captains of hundreds, came near to Moses; 31:49 and they said to Moses, Your servants have taken the sum of the men of war who are under our command, and there lacks not one man of us. 31:50 We have brought Yahweh's offering, what every man has gotten, of jewels of gold, armlets, and bracelets, signet rings, earrings, and necklaces, to make atonement for our souls before Yahweh. 31:51 Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all worked jewels. 31:52 All the gold of the wave offering that they offered up to Yahweh, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred fifty shekels. 31:53 (For the men of war had taken booty, every man for himself.) 31:54 Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the Tent of Meeting, for a memorial for the children of Israel before Yahweh.
So, 32000 girls and/or women were taken as slaves. Usually, that would mean sex slavery, so they would live a life of constant rape. The number of boys who were murdered is not specified, and neither is the number of women who were not virgins – or presumed to be non-virgins, anyway.
However, one can tell that the number of murder victims in that event was probably also in the thousands, since there is no good reason to suspect that there were so many more virgin girls – and adult women, if any were spared – than boys and women who were not virgins – or were presumed to be non-virgins – put together.
So, given those actions, one ought to reckon that Yahweh is a moral monster. And so is Moses. And of course, the victims of the attack were not part of any covenant. They were just victims (not that a covenant would have justify that, anyway).
