Federal troops helping suppress protests in Portland OR

[skepticalbip]

... snip ...

In Seattle and Portland the left appears to be saying people have a right to protest therefore we can not stop the violence, it will interfere with protestors. Pretty much what our governor was saying.

... snip ...

Yes, they are using semantics and misdirection to justify violence.

I certainly agree with their assertion that anyone has the right to demonstrate and scream their grievances. I strongly support this right even if it wasn't guaranteed in the Constitution. They, however, ignore the limitations placed on this in that Constitution. Specifically, it is peaceful demonstrations that are guaranteed, Property destruction and assaults are crimes, not peaceful demonstrations.

Amendment I:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Your mayor, by defending those destroying property, is violating his oath of office. As mayor, Wheeler's duty is to see that laws are enforced and (as far as I know) Portland has laws against destroying the property of others and assaulting others.

Portland's Mayoral oath of office:

I, (name), do solemnly (affirm or swear) that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Oregon and the Charter of the City of Portland and its laws; and I will faithfully, honestly and ethically perform my duties as (office).

 

[Elixir]

Yeah. If the local yahoos won't restore order, it's left to the feds. Get 'em.

Yeah, nobody's gonna miss 'em anyhow. I bet you can't name one single person (without looking it up) who was "disappeared" during Hitler's Kristallnacht.

Has anyone heard from any of the people who have been kidnapped by Trump's brownshirts?

It's sad. The protests are actually starting to lose steam. But Trump will stir it up further by sending in the feds. Gov Brown is 10 times the leader that Trump ever was.

Protests are Trump's friend. Headlines that are not "TRUMP TOTALLY FUCKS UP VIRUS RESPONSE AND KILLS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS" are his friend.

 

[steve_bank]

A far as I can tell modt or all har are in the cheap seats at a ball game shouting.

I am in the middle of it.

I walked through the International District yesterday. A lot of business have boarded up windows.

They did it tastefully in a way. They used a sort of fiber board painted, with images painted on it. Made to look like it is normal.


A cursory look at the last century and it is obvious that unchecked lawlessness and divisions opens the opportunity for demagogues like Trump, who is barely constrained by the legal system.

I will not likely live to see it all playout. If you are 40 or under, on what do you think the stability you have rests? Full grocery stores without having to think about it. Freedom to go and do as you please.

Any ideas?

How about civil order and rule of law? If not then what?

How about god will of people and community policing? The progressive view in Seattle if we get rid of police crime will diminish because the community will police itself.

 

[Elixir]

A cursory look at the last century and it is obvious that unchecked lawlessness and divisions opens the opportunity for demagogues like Trump, who is barely constrained by the legal system.

That (and distraction from the Trump Virus) is why he is doing everything he can to perpetuate it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Seems like our resident Libertarian is too worried about male breasts to get concerned over this.

 

[bilby]

The maintenance of order, control, and the rule of law should never be, in and of themselves, a justification for doing anything.

If the breakdown of these things is leading to injury, death, or the destruction of valuable infrastructure or property, then by all means take action to avoid injury, or death, or the destruction of infrastructure and property.

But if those things are happening, there's no need to invoke 'order', 'control' or 'the rule of law' - these phrases are simply an indication that you are unhappy that people are using their liberty in a way you personally disapprove of. Well, tough shit, authoritarian arseholes. If you like order, control, and the rule of law, you can always move to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, where those things are elevated above all other considerations.

 

[skepticalbip]

... snip ....
How about god will of people and community policing? The progressive view in Seattle if we get rid of police crime will diminish because the community will police itself.

Well vigilantism is a tested method of maintaining order. It does sorta work but, unfortunately, it results in rather arbitrary control and 'enforcement'.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/us/portland-protests.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Rather than tamping down persistent protests in Portland, Ore., a militarized presence from federal officers seems to have re-energized them.

“Today we show the country and the world that the city of Portland, even as much as we fight among ourselves, will come together to stand up for our Constitutional rights,” Ms. Hardesty said Friday.

While officials from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security have described the stepped-up involvement of federal officers as part of an effort to oppose lawlessness in the city, state and local leaders contended that the federal officers themselves may be violating the law.

Senator Jeff Merkley, Democrat of Oregon, said in a tweet that he and Oregon’s other Democratic senator, Ron Wyden, next week would introduce an amendment to the defense bill to stop the Trump administration “from sending its paramilitary squads” onto America’s streets.

Ms. Rosenblum said her office was working with the Multnomah County district attorney, Rod Underhill, on a criminal investigation focused on the injury of a protester on July 12. In that case, video appeared to show a man being struck in the head by an impact munition near the federal courthouse, and his family said he subsequently needed surgery.

The attorney general’s office also filed a lawsuit late Friday accusing federal officers of using unlawful tactics. Protesters, along with videos posted on social media, have described scenes of federal officers seizing people and pulling them into unmarked vans.

The American Civil Liberties Union Foundation of Oregon has also filed in court to curtail the actions of federal officers, and the group said “many” more lawsuits that would be forthcoming.

Apparently, these illegal tactics are just doing the opposite of what Trump intended.

 

[Politesse]

A far as I can tell modt or all har are in the cheap seats at a ball game shouting.

I am in the middle of it.

I walked through the International District yesterday. A lot of business have boarded up windows.

They did it tastefully in a way. They used a sort of fiber board painted, with images painted on it. Made to look like it is normal.


A cursory look at the last century and it is obvious that unchecked lawlessness and divisions opens the opportunity for demagogues like Trump, who is barely constrained by the legal system.

I will not likely live to see it all playout. If you are 40 or under, on what do you think the stability you have rests? Full grocery stores without having to think about it. Freedom to go and do as you please.

Any ideas?

How about civil order and rule of law? If not then what?

How about god will of people and community policing? The progressive view in Seattle if we get rid of police crime will diminish because the community will police itself.

It's the future I'm worried about. Trying to violently repress these riots will fail.

The reforms being proposed to the police force are not unreasonable.

 

[bleubird]

https://www.rt.com/usa/495163-naked...1jVCL-5cNbZAMqDjPeRNW8cnOY310RO6QnRm5a5W8HaWg

Portland is an interesting town.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Yeah. If the local yahoos won't restore order, it's left to the feds. Get 'em.

It is so fucking ironic! Trump wants to take strong leadership to tackle the Portland Protestor Meanies! But he's too scared and weak to tackle a national problem: COVID-19! I can tell you everyone that I'm living in Portland right now. Right down town. We haven't sent away our kids to the safe suburbs like what the British did prior to the battle of Britain! Sorry if anyone misses this metaphor. But we're not scared of the protestors in the least. But covid is killing thousands of Americans and threatening our economy to the core. And what the hell is the federal government doing? Hardly anything.

The Portland Protestor Meanies are causing a minor local problem that is being solved by local Oregonians. COVID is a national problem that is being fought by local governments because Trump is so bad. Anyone see a problem here?????

it's kind of interesting that if you are actually in pdx (I live in shallow SE) the protests are something nominally good. If you are not in pdx, there is a war zone somewhere. The only people who are in danger here are the protestors.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

From what is being reported in the local media Portland is out of control.

The Portland mayor, like our mayor, refuses to put an end to it out of fear of being labeled politically incorrect.

Trump said about the clash between protestors a few years back 'there are good people on both sides'. and rightly god criticized for saying Neo Nazis are 'good people'.

In Seattle the mayor said day after despite wahton destructin, looting, and murder along with rape in the autonomous zone there were good people in the protest and it was not their fault. Let the situaiongo on because there were some good people making a pont.

Yesterday there was a roving group wandering through my neighborhood shouting and ranting.

Democratic mayors are frozen by ideology.

Well, living a literal 13 miles from downtown Portland, I'd say your impression from the 'local media' is not very good regarding Portland. Sure there is a troublesome few blocks, but Portland is as ok as it always was, albeit with Covid-19 impact...

Pdx represents in this thread!

 

[Testy Calibrate]

I listened to KUOW public radio talking to someone on the scene. It was not suppression of the protestors. That being said it was clearly a ploical move by Trump as a talking point for hs campaign. Democratic ciyes are falling apart and so on.

The OP as presented is the flip side of FOX News. Biased and intended to sway opinion on the left instead of the right.

I lived in Portland in the 80s out near the stdium.

I am walking distance to groud zero in Seattle. For a few days I coild not get to the supermarket because public trasit was blocked.

In the news this morning a group of protetors last night gatherd outside a council member's home because he effused to support the 50% police cut. He felt threatened. This 3rd world politics is where Seattle seems to be headed in some ways.

There was a demonstration weeks back a half bloke from building. I walked down and listend to the mayot address the crowd.

There were two white hecklers ranting Antifa rhetoric trying to disrupt.

In the first days of the protest we sat on the roof deck and watched a line of protestors marching down 5th Ave to Japan Town. We could hear the ranting and shouting. Next day I walk down and saw the damage. Volunteers cleaning up. Protestors over balck rights damhing minority Asian business, irony and hypocrisy.

It is mob rule. I am not 13 miles away, I am in the middle of it as are many. Our mayor refused to enforce order until there were deaths and rising complaints of businesses and residents who were damaged and threatened.

In Seattle and Portland the left appears to be saying people have a right to protest therefore we can not stop the violence, it will interfere with protestors. Pretty much what our governor was saying.

Regardless of the history of black oppressions and police abuse of power, whiteout law and order there are no civil rights, only mob and vigilante justice. As was the case in the so called autonomous zone.

portland is not like that at all. And, I lived in downtown Seattle in the 80s and it sounds exactly the same as when I lived there from your description

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Yes, they are using semantics and misdirection to justify violence.

I certainly agree with their assertion that anyone has the right to demonstrate and scream their grievances. I strongly support this right even if it wasn't guaranteed in the Constitution. They, however, ignore the limitations placed on this in that Constitution. Specifically, it is peaceful demonstrations that are guaranteed, Property destruction and assaults are crimes, not peaceful demonstrations.



Your mayor, by defending those destroying property, is violating his oath of office. As mayor, Wheeler's duty is to see that laws are enforced and (as far as I know) Portland has laws against destroying the property of others and assaulting others.

Portland's Mayoral oath of office:

I, (name), do solemnly (affirm or swear) that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Oregon and the Charter of the City of Portland and its laws; and I will faithfully, honestly and ethically perform my duties as (office).

Ted wheeler is absolutely doing his job, which isn't easy in a time when basically the entire community is saying that either things change regarding police accountability or the system isn't worth saving.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

A far as I can tell modt or all har are in the cheap seats at a ball game shouting.

I am in the middle of it.

I walked through the International District yesterday. A lot of business have boarded up windows.

They did it tastefully in a way. They used a sort of fiber board painted, with images painted on it. Made to look like it is normal.


A cursory look at the last century and it is obvious that unchecked lawlessness and divisions opens the opportunity for demagogues like Trump, who is barely constrained by the legal system.

I will not likely live to see it all playout. If you are 40 or under, on what do you think the stability you have rests? Full grocery stores without having to think about it. Freedom to go and do as you please.

Any ideas?

How about civil order and rule of law? If not then what?

How about god will of people and community policing? The progressive view in Seattle if we get rid of police crime will diminish because the community will police itself.

There is a point where "because fuck you" is a valid motivating principle. At that point, nothing can go back to the way it was. The rot was unacceptable to a lot of people, myself included. I am not going to live to see the post carbon world but the system is broken. We live in interesting times. The toothpaste is out of the tube. Either we get a police state or an equitable justice system. The middle ground is vone.

 

[repoman]

Yes, they are using semantics and misdirection to justify violence.

I certainly agree with their assertion that anyone has the right to demonstrate and scream their grievances. I strongly support this right even if it wasn't guaranteed in the Constitution. They, however, ignore the limitations placed on this in that Constitution. Specifically, it is peaceful demonstrations that are guaranteed, Property destruction and assaults are crimes, not peaceful demonstrations.



Your mayor, by defending those destroying property, is violating his oath of office. As mayor, Wheeler's duty is to see that laws are enforced and (as far as I know) Portland has laws against destroying the property of others and assaulting others.

Portland's Mayoral oath of office:

I, (name), do solemnly (affirm or swear) that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Oregon and the Charter of the City of Portland and its laws; and I will faithfully, honestly and ethically perform my duties as (office).

Ted wheeler is absolutely doing his job, which isn't easy in a time when basically the entire community is saying that either things change regarding police accountability or the system isn't worth saving.

[https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2020/07/15/new-multnomah-county-district-attorney-mike-schmidt-must-decide-who-faces-criminal-charges-amid-portlands-protests/

Incoming DA. Gonna let the protestors go crazy forever.

Except the guy dumb enough to try and hit a Fed on the head with a hammer. He will do hard time.

 

[repoman]

A far as I can tell modt or all har are in the cheap seats at a ball game shouting.

I am in the middle of it.

I walked through the International District yesterday. A lot of business have boarded up windows.

They did it tastefully in a way. They used a sort of fiber board painted, with images painted on it. Made to look like it is normal.


A cursory look at the last century and it is obvious that unchecked lawlessness and divisions opens the opportunity for demagogues like Trump, who is barely constrained by the legal system.

I will not likely live to see it all playout. If you are 40 or under, on what do you think the stability you have rests? Full grocery stores without having to think about it. Freedom to go and do as you please.

Any ideas?

How about civil order and rule of law? If not then what?

How about god will of people and community policing? The progressive view in Seattle if we get rid of police crime will diminish because the community will police itself.

There is a point where "because fuck you" is a valid motivating principle. At that point, nothing can go back to the way it was. The rot was unacceptable to a lot of people, myself included. I am not going to live to see the post carbon world but the system is broken. We live in interesting times. The toothpaste is out of the tube. Either we get a police state or an equitable justice system. The middle ground is vone.

Post carbon?

Is that the police's fault that we are in a carbon world? (for the record I am very convinced of climate change, it will kill 100s of millions if not billions of people)

It is not black lives matter, it is people who cops think don't a have a good lawyer whose lives matter.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Ted wheeler is absolutely doing his job, which isn't easy in a time when basically the entire community is saying that either things change regarding police accountability or the system isn't worth saving.

[https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2020/07/15/new-multnomah-county-district-attorney-mike-schmidt-must-decide-who-faces-criminal-charges-amid-portlands-protests/

Incoming DA. Gonna let the protestors go crazy forever.

Except the guy dumb enough to try and hit a Fed on the head with a hammer. He will do hard time.

Interesting that you would take such a nuanced reply and boil it down to such a dumb and stereotypical mischaracterization.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

A far as I can tell modt or all har are in the cheap seats at a ball game shouting.

I am in the middle of it.

I walked through the International District yesterday. A lot of business have boarded up windows.

They did it tastefully in a way. They used a sort of fiber board painted, with images painted on it. Made to look like it is normal.


A cursory look at the last century and it is obvious that unchecked lawlessness and divisions opens the opportunity for demagogues like Trump, who is barely constrained by the legal system.

I will not likely live to see it all playout. If you are 40 or under, on what do you think the stability you have rests? Full grocery stores without having to think about it. Freedom to go and do as you please.

Any ideas?

How about civil order and rule of law? If not then what?

How about god will of people and community policing? The progressive view in Seattle if we get rid of police crime will diminish because the community will police itself.

There is a point where "because fuck you" is a valid motivating principle. At that point, nothing can go back to the way it was. The rot was unacceptable to a lot of people, myself included. I am not going to live to see the post carbon world but the system is broken. We live in interesting times. The toothpaste is out of the tube. Either we get a police state or an equitable justice system. The middle ground is vone.

Post carbon?

Is that the police's fault that we are in a carbon world? (for the record I am very convinced of climate change, it will kill 100s of millions if not billions of people)

It is not black lives matter, it is people who cops think don't a have a good lawyer whose lives matter.

Well, everyone has their own beef with the justice system. But BLM is as good a starting point as any.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The maintenance of order, control, and the rule of law should never be, in and of themselves, a justification for doing anything.

If the breakdown of these things is leading to injury, death, or the destruction of valuable infrastructure or property, then by all means take action to avoid injury, or death, or the destruction of infrastructure and property.

But if those things are happening, there's no need to invoke 'order', 'control' or 'the rule of law' - these phrases are simply an indication that you are unhappy that people are using their liberty in a way you personally disapprove of. Well, tough shit, authoritarian arseholes. If you like order, control, and the rule of law, you can always move to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, where those things are elevated above all other considerations.

I don't agree here at all. But order and the "rule of law" are very important. Not sure if you know this, but protesting is a legal right for all Americans. But you don't have the right to break the law and/or disrupt and threaten others.