Federal troops helping suppress protests in Portland OR

[Harry Bosch]

A far as I can tell modt or all har are in the cheap seats at a ball game shouting.

I am in the middle of it.

I walked through the International District yesterday. A lot of business have boarded up windows.

They did it tastefully in a way. They used a sort of fiber board painted, with images painted on it. Made to look like it is normal.


A cursory look at the last century and it is obvious that unchecked lawlessness and divisions opens the opportunity for demagogues like Trump, who is barely constrained by the legal system.

I will not likely live to see it all playout. If you are 40 or under, on what do you think the stability you have rests? Full grocery stores without having to think about it. Freedom to go and do as you please.

Any ideas?

How about civil order and rule of law? If not then what?

How about god will of people and community policing? The progressive view in Seattle if we get rid of police crime will diminish because the community will police itself.

There is a point where "because fuck you" is a valid motivating principle. At that point, nothing can go back to the way it was. The rot was unacceptable to a lot of people, myself included. I am not going to live to see the post carbon world but the system is broken. We live in interesting times. The toothpaste is out of the tube. Either we get a police state or an equitable justice system. The middle ground is vone.

What changes would you like to see to get an "equitable justice system"? Again, I'm seeing the Portland protests starting to lose steam. If the marchers don't organize better and come up with a viable strategy, they'll go the way of occupy wallstreet.

 

[Elixir]

I have been asking around and have been unable to get any answer at all, from anyone.
Has anyone seen or heard from any of the people being "disappeared" by Trump's thugs?

Any idea where they are being held or for what "crimes"?
Have any of their lawyers spoken up?
Are the unidentified thugs from DHS? If so, which which DHS agency/agencies?
(There are dozens of them, unbeknownst to most Americans. The best known are:

FEMA
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
Transportation Security Administration
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services
U.S. Coast Guard
U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
U.S. Secret Service

But that is just the tip of the iceberg - U.S. federal Homeland Security and Homeland Defense includes 187 federal agencies and departments. Apparently ALL of those entities' personnel are subject to orders from Bill "Toadie" Barr.

When I signed my Company's sale agreement in 2018 and declined the long term employment contract that was offered in favor of a consulting position, my decision had a lot to do with the fact that our biggest customers for the previous four years were those very entities, buying under a 5 year DHS blanket purchase agreement we signed in 2015. Every one of those agencies was becoming increasingly political and corrupted, until finally I wanted no part of supporting them. Now, they have been transformed into hideous authoritarian parodies of what they were under the Obama Administration.


If anyone has heard any reports from the people being picked off the street and crammed into unmarked cars by unidentified thugs, I'd love to hear or see them.
Until then, I have to ask - Considering that little kids are being held in Trump concentration camps, there is little reason to think that his other "enemies" like say, protesters, aren't being similarly sequestered away from the press and public? What's next? Gas chambers?

Will there be a day when the order comes to arrest Democrats in Congress en masse?

 

[marc]

I have been asking around and have been unable to get any answer at all, from anyone.
Has anyone seen or heard from any of the people being "disappeared" by Trump's thugs?

Any idea where they are being held or for what "crimes"?
Have any of their lawyers spoken up?
Are the unidentified thugs from DHS? If so, which which DHS agency/agencies?
(There are dozens of them, unbeknownst to most Americans. The best known are:

So far from what I’ve heard the people taken have been released. They were taken to a federal courthouse. They are not officially arrested, no formal charges, no recording or paperwork of the ‘arrest’.

The thugs are said to be a combination of ICE and Customs/Border Patrol. The excuse given for their presence is to protect federal property, which some people put graffiti on.

While the people taken have been released.... as far as we know... this could be a first step in intimidation. If no one tries to shut this down they might escalate to beatings, torture, and longer detention If someone in charge feels they need to get tougher.

 

[Elixir]

I have been asking around and have been unable to get any answer at all, from anyone.
Has anyone seen or heard from any of the people being "disappeared" by Trump's thugs?

Any idea where they are being held or for what "crimes"?
Have any of their lawyers spoken up?
Are the unidentified thugs from DHS? If so, which which DHS agency/agencies?
(There are dozens of them, unbeknownst to most Americans. The best known are:

So far from what I’ve heard the people taken have been released. They were taken to a federal courthouse. They are not officially arrested, no formal charges, no recording or paperwork of the ‘arrest’.

Thanks, Marc. Can you cite any sources? I'd feel a little better...

The thugs are said to be a combination of ICE and Customs/Border Patrol. The excuse given for their presence is to protect federal property, which some people put graffiti on.

While the people taken have been released.... as far as we know... this could be a first step in intimidation. If no one tries to shut this down they might escalate to beatings, torture, and longer detention If someone in charge feels they need to get tougher.

There is no record of how many they have kidnapped, so we don't know how many (if any) are still in "custody". Or if they're being beaten, tortured etc.
Why aren't they showing up on interviews with the press? Or are they?

FWIW, the ICE people have always been pretty creepy, even under Obama. But CBP was almost a benevolent entity. Yeah, they were hard on smugglers, but many if not most spent much of their time and energy saving the lives of hapless victims of coyotes, abandoned in the desert. We were doing annual visits to all of the southern border stations and sector HQs, and have had interaction with almost all of the station commanders. They were surprisingly humanistic (many are/were latinos). But the character of the organization started morphing rapidly in 2017.

 

[marc]

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/x57cqjLhZLk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[marc]

Thanks, Marc. Can you cite any sources? I'd feel a little better...

I posted a video with most of the information I've heard.

There is no record of how many they have kidnapped, so we don't know how many (if any) are still in "custody". Or if they're being beaten, tortured etc.
Why aren't they showing up on interviews with the press? Or are they?

How much has the mainstream press been covering it? This was the first mention I've seen of statements from someone that was abducted.

FWIW, the ICE people have always been pretty creepy, even under Obama. But CBP was almost a benevolent entity.

It could be that CBP had been packed with authoritarian types. Could also be that the government is lying as to what agency they are actually a part of. Hell, there has been some worry that local militia groups might dress up in matching fatigues and be doing a little patrolling of their own.

 

[hyzer]

Today's Washington Post reports

"PORTLAND, Ore. — The Oregon attorney general filed a lawsuit late Friday night alleging that the federal government had violated Oregonians’ civil rights by seizing and detaining them without probable cause during protests against police brutality in the past week.

The legal action comes after days of intensifying clashes between the Trump administration and Portland officials, who have accused federal agencies of heavy-handed tactics that inflame unrest and threaten citizens."

More here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...e-high_oregonlawsuit-745pm:homepage/story-ans

 

[TV and credit cards]

Yes, they are using semantics and misdirection to justify violence.

I certainly agree with their assertion that anyone has the right to demonstrate and scream their grievances. I strongly support this right even if it wasn't guaranteed in the Constitution. They, however, ignore the limitations placed on this in that Constitution. Specifically, it is peaceful demonstrations that are guaranteed, Property destruction and assaults are crimes, not peaceful demonstrations.

Amendment I[/B]]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Your mayor, by defending those destroying property, is violating his oath of office. As mayor, Wheeler's duty is to see that laws are enforced and (as far as I know) Portland has laws against destroying the property of others and assaulting others.

Portland's Mayoral oath of office:

I, (name), do solemnly (affirm or swear) that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Oregon and the Charter of the City of Portland and its laws; and I will faithfully, honestly and ethically perform my duties as (office).

I think the problem might be that grievances are not being redressed. George Floyd is not the nation's first rodeo. How many times do the people tolerate little more than lip service to their grievances? When law enforcement repeatedly kills the people they are sworn to protect and our government does not make the changes necessary to stop it or even punish those using excessive force, what would you expect would happen? That we should continue to wag our finger and say, "Don't do that again or we'll tell you again, don't do that again"?

Never, ever be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble.
-Rep John Lewis

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Pinochet used a bunch of what would be considered National Guard weekenders who didn't know better to play small roles in a much larger US effort to crush a legally elected administration. Many died.

Trump is pulling people off the streets with unidentified troops to quash dissent. No one has died yet. But the right-wingers that are still supporting Trump with this absurd abuse of power frighten the heck out of me because it officially exposes them as despots.

Several news outlets are reporting that strange camo dressed federal officers are pulling people off the street who are just peaceful protesters. They are being detained and later released.

Is this the Pinocheting of America?


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ZC1VZJU9duH_ATXzAGxjvQeYBVL08XgZs6Cex9tRphec8

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33347230/portland-oregon-protesters-detained/

Seriously. What the fuck is going on? Is this a dress rehearsal for what we can expect the Trump Administration to do if it loses the election?

 

[Testy Calibrate]

A far as I can tell modt or all har are in the cheap seats at a ball game shouting.

I am in the middle of it.

I walked through the International District yesterday. A lot of business have boarded up windows.

They did it tastefully in a way. They used a sort of fiber board painted, with images painted on it. Made to look like it is normal.


A cursory look at the last century and it is obvious that unchecked lawlessness and divisions opens the opportunity for demagogues like Trump, who is barely constrained by the legal system.

I will not likely live to see it all playout. If you are 40 or under, on what do you think the stability you have rests? Full grocery stores without having to think about it. Freedom to go and do as you please.

Any ideas?

How about civil order and rule of law? If not then what?

How about god will of people and community policing? The progressive view in Seattle if we get rid of police crime will diminish because the community will police itself.

There is a point where "because fuck you" is a valid motivating principle. At that point, nothing can go back to the way it was. The rot was unacceptable to a lot of people, myself included. I am not going to live to see the post carbon world but the system is broken. We live in interesting times. The toothpaste is out of the tube. Either we get a police state or an equitable justice system. The middle ground is vone.

What changes would you like to see to get an "equitable justice system"? Again, I'm seeing the Portland protests starting to lose steam. If the marchers don't organize better and come up with a viable strategy, they'll go the way of occupy wallstreet.

A RICO law applied to police. Lying to cover for another cop, planting evidence, falsifying reports, brutality, and a few related issues having a steep prison consequence with an independent state level prosecutor appointed by public defenders, and a "reasonable person" standard for conviction would be a good start.

 

[Harry Bosch]

What changes would you like to see to get an "equitable justice system"? Again, I'm seeing the Portland protests starting to lose steam. If the marchers don't organize better and come up with a viable strategy, they'll go the way of occupy wallstreet.

A RICO law applied to police. Lying to cover for another cop, planting evidence, falsifying reports, brutality, and a few related issues having a steep prison consequence with an independent state level prosecutor appointed by public defenders, and a "reasonable person" standard for conviction would be a good start.

I don't have a huge problem with any of these issues. But I think that what we really need is far better training for the police.

 

[lpetrich]

Yeah. If the local yahoos won't restore order, it's left to the feds. Get 'em.

I love the sight of right-wingers begging for more government.

Opinion | 50 Nights of Unrest in Portland - The New York Times - "Robert Evans of Bellingcat says the city “is being used as a bellwether to see what this administration can get away with.”"

The Oregon senators, Jeff Merkley and Ron Wyden, as well as Senator Chuck Schumer, have requested a formal federal investigation into the arrests. The Nation reports that the arrests have been carried out by Customs and Border Protection, acting on the president’s “Executive Order on Protecting American Monuments, Memorials, and Statues and Combating Recent Criminal Violence.”

...
To get a sense of what is unfolding in Portland and what it’s like to be covering protests each night for two months, I spoke with Robert Evans, a freelance journalist based in the city. Mr. Evans is a conflict reporter who has reported from Iraq and Ukraine. He covers far-right extremism for the investigative journalism site Bellingcat and hosts the Behind The Bastards podcast. The conversation has been edited for length and clarity:

How many nights have you been out there covering these demonstrations?

Of the last 51 or so nights I’m at somewhere around 30 that I’ve been out.

It’s not going great. I had to have a sit-down talk with a 17-year old photo journalist because his hands won’t stop shaking and I know from prior experience in war zones that it’s an early sign of P.T.S.D.-like symptoms. I had to tell him: “You very likely have done permanent damage to your brain covering this stuff and now you’ll have to ask yourself how much damage you’re willing to incur.”

So it's getting close to a war zone.

What’s been your interaction with the federal agents? Have you personally seen them rounding up people in unmarked cars?

I’ve seen them rolling around in the vans and tackling people. My partner has watched them do a few snatch and grabs. The difference is they’re not cops. They go after people like soldiers, where the goal is to be unpredictable. The way they use munitions is different.

In Portland, people are scared of the feds. But nobody is scared of the cops anymore. At a certain point of being subjected to police flash bangs and gas, you stop fearing it.

Portland Protests: Local Leaders Urging Feds to Leave - The New York Times - "Federal authorities said they would bring order to Portland, Ore., after weeks of protests there. Local leaders believe the federal presence is making things worse."

Federal agents dressed in camouflage and tactical gear have taken to the streets of Portland, unleashing tear gas, bloodying protesters and pulling some people into unmarked vans in what Gov. Kate Brown of Oregon has called “a blatant abuse of power.”

The extraordinary use of federal force in recent days, billed as an attempt to tamp down persistent unrest and protect government property, has infuriated local leaders who say the agents have stoked tensions. “This is an attack on our democracy,” Mayor Ted Wheeler of Portland said.

Late Friday night, Oregon’s attorney general, Ellen Rosenblum, said her office had opened a criminal investigation into how one protester was injured near a federal courthouse. She also filed a lawsuit in Federal District Court accusing the federal agents of engaging in unlawful tactics and seeking a restraining order.

...
Law enforcement officials say it is rare for local police departments to request help from federal authorities — or for the federal government to deploy in a city without that consent — because of the risk of escalating an already volatile environment.

“The last people you really want are any of these federal officials,” said Gil Kerlikowske, the former commissioner of Customs and Border Protection and the former chief of the Seattle Police Department.

Federal Officers Deployed in Portland Didn’t Have Proper Training, D.H.S. Memo Said - The New York Times - "Rather than tamping down persistent protests in Portland, Ore., a militarized presence from federal officers seems to have re-energized them."

The federal agents facing a growing backlash for their militarized approach to weeks of unrest in Portland were not specifically trained in riot control or mass demonstrations, an internal Department of Homeland Security memo warned this week.

...
The memo, seemingly anticipating future encounters with protesters in other cities as the department follows President Trump’s guidance to crack down on unrest, warns: “Moving forward, if this type of response is going to be the norm, specialized training and standardized equipment should be deployed to responding agencies.”

The tactical agents deployed by Homeland Security include officials from a group known as BORTAC, the Border Patrol’s equivalent of a S.W.A.T. team, a highly trained group that normally is tasked with investigating drug smuggling organizations, as opposed to protesters in cities.

Were the Actions of Federal Agents in Portland Legal? - The New York Times - "The Department of Homeland Security can point to federal statutes protecting property to justify the arrests of protesters in Portland, Ore., but whether they stretched the law would be up to a judge."

But the lack of any consent from local officials just means federal agents cannot rely on state and local laws to justify the arrests. Federal agents can still detain the demonstrators away from federal property if they can assert probable cause that a federal crime was violated, according to Peter Vincent, a former top lawyer with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which has also sent agents to cities across the United States.

“Homeland security’s authorities are so extraordinarily broad that they can find federal laws that they are authorized to enforce across the spectrum, so long as it has some national security, public safety, human trafficking, criminal street gang conspiracy,” Mr. Vincent said.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

What changes would you like to see to get an "equitable justice system"? Again, I'm seeing the Portland protests starting to lose steam. If the marchers don't organize better and come up with a viable strategy, they'll go the way of occupy wallstreet.

A RICO law applied to police. Lying to cover for another cop, planting evidence, falsifying reports, brutality, and a few related issues having a steep prison consequence with an independent state level prosecutor appointed by public defenders, and a "reasonable person" standard for conviction would be a good start.

I don't have a huge problem with any of these issues. But I think that what we really need is far better training for the police.

Training matters but only if the thin blue line is cut. Otherwise, the structure of the system renders Training moot.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I don't have a huge problem with any of these issues. But I think that what we really need is far better training for the police.

Training matters but only if the thin blue line is cut. Otherwise, the structure of the system renders Training moot.

How would cutting the number of police help in anyway?? Obviously, bad cops should be fired. But you seem to be suggesting that cutting the number of cops would fix the problem. That makes no sense.

 

[skepticalbip]

Yes, they are using semantics and misdirection to justify violence.

I certainly agree with their assertion that anyone has the right to demonstrate and scream their grievances. I strongly support this right even if it wasn't guaranteed in the Constitution. They, however, ignore the limitations placed on this in that Constitution. Specifically, it is peaceful demonstrations that are guaranteed, Property destruction and assaults are crimes, not peaceful demonstrations.



Your mayor, by defending those destroying property, is violating his oath of office. As mayor, Wheeler's duty is to see that laws are enforced and (as far as I know) Portland has laws against destroying the property of others and assaulting others.

Portland's Mayoral oath of office:

I, (name), do solemnly (affirm or swear) that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Oregon and the Charter of the City of Portland and its laws; and I will faithfully, honestly and ethically perform my duties as (office).

Ted wheeler is absolutely doing his job, which isn't easy in a time when basically the entire community is saying that either things change regarding police accountability or the system isn't worth saving.

That is a great example of what I said... you are misdirecting and not actually responding to my post.

As I clearly said, I strongly support peaceful demonstrations. There are some peaceful demonstrators in Portland and I support them.

Your misdirection is to imply that all that is going on is only peaceful demonstrations... IT IS NOT. Some in those "demonstrations" are destroying property, looting, assaulting others, killing a couple and sending some to the hospital. It is this smaller percentage that are criminals and Wheeler should be calling for the police to arrest this smaller percentage as he swore to do in his oath of office.

If these "demonstrators" were "demonstrating" on the street in front of your house and some of them were breaking your windows and spraying graffiti on your house, maybe one of them sucker punches you, then you would probably want the small percentage doing the damage arrested too... but then maybe not since they are only "demonstrating" for change in policing.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

I don't have a huge problem with any of these issues. But I think that what we really need is far better training for the police.

Training matters but only if the thin blue line is cut. Otherwise, the structure of the system renders Training moot.

How would cutting the number of police help in anyway?? Obviously, bad cops should be fired. But you seem to be suggesting that cutting the number of cops would fix the problem. That makes no sense.

I have not suggested this. Not sure where you got that from. We need to change the nature of policing for sure. Maybe we need to cut the numbers but that's not something I think is really the front burner issue. The nature of surveillance and the damage of a criminal record are two issues I'd put ahead of the actual number of cops.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Ted wheeler is absolutely doing his job, which isn't easy in a time when basically the entire community is saying that either things change regarding police accountability or the system isn't worth saving.

That is a great example of what I said... you are misdirecting and not actually responding to my post.

As I clearly said, I strongly support peaceful demonstrations. There are some peaceful demonstrators in Portland and I support them.

Your misdirection is to imply that all that is going on is only peaceful demonstrations... IT IS NOT. Some in those "demonstrations" are destroying property, looting, assaulting others, killing a couple and sending some to the hospital. It is this smaller percentage that are criminals and Wheeler should be calling for the police to arrest this smaller percentage as he swore to do in his oath of office.

If these "demonstrators" were "demonstrating" on the street in front of your house and some of them were breaking your windows and spraying graffiti on your house, maybe one of them sucker punches you, then you would probably want the small percentage doing the damage arrested too... but then maybe not since they are only demonstrating for change in policing.

The danger in downtown is from the cops, not the protesters as things stand. Eventually, the number of really angry people will grow and the protesters will probably become more dangerous but that is the way blowback works. Arresting large numbers of people who are already pissed off will only create even higher costs later.

The idea that violence will intimidate the angry mob enough that their demands can be ignored only works while the authorities have tbe support of the large majority. Once they lose that support, and they pretty much have lost it in PDX, the only way out is negotiation with meaningful concessions or a police state as an occupying army. The police are sacrificing their legitimacy for their vision of power. That's a downward spiral in a country where everyone is armed.

 

[Horatio Parker]

What changes would you like to see to get an "equitable justice system"? Again, I'm seeing the Portland protests starting to lose steam. If the marchers don't organize better and come up with a viable strategy, they'll go the way of occupy wallstreet.

A RICO law applied to police. Lying to cover for another cop, planting evidence, falsifying reports, brutality, and a few related issues having a steep prison consequence with an independent state level prosecutor appointed by public defenders, and a "reasonable person" standard for conviction would be a good start.

For federal officers required to identify themselves and their agencies when detaining someone, and inform detainees why they are being detained.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ted wheeler is absolutely doing his job, which isn't easy in a time when basically the entire community is saying that either things change regarding police accountability or the system isn't worth saving.

That is a great example of what I said... you are misdirecting and not actually responding to my post.

As I clearly said, I strongly support peaceful demonstrations. There are some peaceful demonstrators in Portland and I support them.

Your misdirection is to imply that all that is going on is only peaceful demonstrations... IT IS NOT. Some in those "demonstrations" are destroying property, looting, assaulting others, killing a couple and sending some to the hospital. It is this smaller percentage that are criminals and Wheeler should be calling for the police to arrest this smaller percentage as he swore to do in his oath of office.

If these "demonstrators" were "demonstrating" on the street in front of your house and some of them were breaking your windows and spraying graffiti on your house, maybe one of them sucker punches you, then you would probably want the small percentage doing the damage arrested too... but then maybe not since they are only "demonstrating" for change in policing.

So what are these people being charged with?

 

[skepticalbip]

Yes, they are using semantics and misdirection to justify violence.

I certainly agree with their assertion that anyone has the right to demonstrate and scream their grievances. I strongly support this right even if it wasn't guaranteed in the Constitution. They, however, ignore the limitations placed on this in that Constitution. Specifically, it is peaceful demonstrations that are guaranteed, Property destruction and assaults are crimes, not peaceful demonstrations.


Your mayor, by defending those destroying property, is violating his oath of office. As mayor, Wheeler's duty is to see that laws are enforced and (as far as I know) Portland has laws against destroying the property of others and assaulting others.

I think the problem might be that grievances are not being redressed. George Floyd is not the nation's first rodeo. How many times do the people tolerate little more than lip service to their grievances? When law enforcement repeatedly kills the people they are sworn to protect and our government does not make the changes necessary to stop it or even punish those using excessive force, what would you expect would happen? That we should continue to wag our finger and say, "Don't do that again or we'll tell you again, don't do that again"?

And you think destroying the property of and assaulting other citizens who have no role in controlling or any association with the police is a reasonable method of making the government rein in the police? I have to question your reasoning.

Never, ever be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble.
-Rep John Lewis

Gotta admire Lewis.
You should study John Lewis' history. I have seen no record of him ever breaking a window, destroying the property of others, looting a store, sucker punching other citizens, etc.