Female vs Male Psychology

[iolo]

That's obvious thing to say. But still different brains can be clustered into two types.

Working ones and conservatives? Wnen the last of our children was born, we decided to buy a dummy, which we never dreamed of before. 'Blue or white?' asked they. I was totally baffled, but when it was explained I understood how early 'gender' brainwashing begins.

It was pink. All means something, I expect.

 

[barbos]

Studies have demonstrated that culture has nothing to to do with gender roles.

Have they?

Yes, they have.

Abstract
''Three studies demonstrate how culture shapes the content of gender stereotypes, such that men are perceived as possessing more of whatever traits are culturally valued.

In Study 1, Americans rated men as less interdependent than women; Koreans, however, showed the opposite pattern, rating men as more interdependent than women, deviating from the “universal” gender stereotype of male independence.

In Study 2, bicultural Korean American participants rated men as less interdependent if they completed a survey in English, but as more interdependent if they completed the survey in Korean, demonstrating how cultural frames influence the contents of gender stereotypes.

In Study 3, American college students rated a male student as higher on whichever trait – ambitiousness or sociability – they were told was the most important cultural value at their university, establishing that cultural values causally impact the contents of gender stereotypes.''

That has nothing to do with anything.

You can't turn a straight man into a gay,

Being largely genetically determined, probably not.

Not according to these two Norwegian may I say "scientists".

and you can't turn a nurse into an engineer.

This is just a matter of study: information input. A nurse may, for whatever reason, decide to change careers.

May but won't.

 

[rousseau]

We need more data!

Being a programmer I'm constantly, constantly faced with the 'women in tech' debate. Everyone has an opinion. One of the leading minds and commentators on the subject, though, Jeff Atwood, blogger of Coding Horror, and co-owner of Stack Exchange, has posted quite a bit on it.

One study he posted a while back made a pretty clear case that, on average, women just aren't as attracted to IT as men, and that largely accounts for the disparity in numbers in the field. Whether that's cultural or genetic might not be entirely clear, but the emergent fact seems pretty clear to me: there are real differences between men and women when generalized.

It's also interesting to note that every environment I've been in re: programming has been dominated by men. My college program had about 44-48 male graduates and 6-7 female. During my first internship there were zero female programmers out of a team of about 20-25. During my second internship also very few women.

The thing that irks me about all of this is that because men are the dominant side of the equation and IT is well paid and growing, suddenly it's a problem and we need to funnel more women into tech. That's the complete wrong approach, imo. The problem isn't the number of women in tech, the problem is socially awkward programmers who make women in the field uncomfortable on a daily basis. Let women into the field if they want to enter the field, just make sure you're not sexually and emotionally harassing them once they get there.

 

[barbos]

But women don't want to be programmers, they want to be nurses and teachers. That's what that video discuss and the reasons for that are biological and evolutionary.

 

[rousseau]

But women don't want to be programmers, they want to be nurses and teachers. That's what that video discuss and the reasons for that are biological and evolutionary.

Yea that's pretty much what I said.

 

[untermensche]

What if there were some psychological traits that generally appeared in women more than men?

What would it mean to the individual man or woman?

What would it mean in the real world?

 

[Toni]

There was a recent study of effect of testosterone on women. They found even single injection instantly makes them better at spatial navigation, ability which is linked to mathematical abilities.
In other studies it was found that women and men use different parts of the brain when solving the same task. In general women use different parts of the brain more equally, whereas men are more concentrated on certain specialized parts.
So it suggests that it's not so much about differences in the brain (which still exists) but about how it's used and hormones play a significant role.
So this explains why women are bad at mathematics and such, they can't turn off "feeling" part of the brain which interfere with "thinking" part of the brain. Men on the other hand have "feeling" part suppressed to begin with.

And yet, I was the best math student in my high school. By quite a lot. My sister is also quite good at math--better than I am because she likes it more.

While there might be differences in abilities and traits among large groups of boys and girls, it is a mistake to attach this to individuals. I've known women who were terrible 'people persons' and who lacked much obvious ability to empathize with others. I've known men who are warm and empathetic. I've known men who are bad at math and science; women who excel at both.

 

[rousseau]

What if there were some psychological traits that generally appeared in women more than men?

What would it mean to the individual man or woman?

What would it mean in the real world?

Well, imo, a few things.

If a hypothetical female or male had wise parents who could school them on the way the world works they might say something like this:

- women tend to like [a], , and [c] so there's a good chance that type of thing might be suitable for you, so give it some thought. If you don't feel your passionate about it, on the other hand, that's ok too.

Understanding the genetic/cultural realities of men and women would also serve as a better guide on things like why there is gender disparity, pay disparity, and so on. As far as I can tell a lot of the popular sentiment in these areas is based on social memes, and not reality.

From my own perspective I just want to talk about it and don't really care about the application.

 

[untermensche]

What if there were some psychological traits that generally appeared in women more than men?

What would it mean to the individual man or woman?

What would it mean in the real world?

Well, imo, a few things.

If a hypothetical female or male had wise parents who could school them on the way the world works they might say something like this:

- women tend to like [a], , and [c] so there's a good chance that type of thing might be suitable for you, so give it some thought. If you don't feel your passionate about it, on the other hand, that's ok too.

Understanding the genetic/cultural realities of men and women would also serve as a better guide on things like why there is gender disparity, pay disparity, and so on. As far as I can tell a lot of the popular sentiment in these areas is based on social memes, and not reality.

From my own perspective I just want to talk about it and don't really care about the application.

It's a billion mile chasm to move from possible psychological differences to pay inequality.

No political action would be called for. No educational or economic action would be called for.

Nothing would change.

 

[Toni]

What if there were some psychological traits that generally appeared in women more than men?

What would it mean to the individual man or woman?

What would it mean in the real world?

Well, imo, a few things.

If a hypothetical female or male had wise parents who could school them on the way the world works they might say something like this:

- women tend to like [a], , and [c] so there's a good chance that type of thing might be suitable for you, so give it some thought. If you don't feel your passionate about it, on the other hand, that's ok too.

Understanding the genetic/cultural realities of men and women would also serve as a better guide on things like why there is gender disparity, pay disparity, and so on. As far as I can tell a lot of the popular sentiment in these areas is based on social memes, and not reality.

From my own perspective I just want to talk about it and don't really care about the application.

No.

The thing to do is encourage your child (and children and people of all ages) to pursue their own interests and explore and develop their own talents WITHOUT making a judgment about whether more boys or more girls like this or that or are good at that or are perceived as being good or bad at this or that and therefore if you don't follow the path into the machine, your life will be harder and sad and lonely and you probably aren't really a girl or a boy anyway.

Rage against the machine.

 

[rousseau]

Well, imo, a few things.

If a hypothetical female or male had wise parents who could school them on the way the world works they might say something like this:

- women tend to like [a], , and [c] so there's a good chance that type of thing might be suitable for you, so give it some thought. If you don't feel your passionate about it, on the other hand, that's ok too.

Understanding the genetic/cultural realities of men and women would also serve as a better guide on things like why there is gender disparity, pay disparity, and so on. As far as I can tell a lot of the popular sentiment in these areas is based on social memes, and not reality.

From my own perspective I just want to talk about it and don't really care about the application.

No.

The thing to do is encourage your child (and children and people of all ages) to pursue their own interests and explore and develop their own talents WITHOUT making a judgment about whether more boys or more girls like this or that or are good at that or are perceived as being good or bad at this or that and therefore if you don't follow the path into the machine, your life will be harder and sad and lonely and you probably aren't really a girl or a boy anyway.

Rage against the machine.

I don't see the judgement part in my post, I see parents teaching their children about the world. I also added a.. "if those things don't interest you, that's ok too".

Maybe it would have been better stated like this:

"Be whatever you want to be, but I might be able to help you understand who you are"

For instance.. I was an introvert for my entire life. My parents didn't notice, and even now I'm not sure they totally understand what an introvert is. I went into teaching at 23 which was a horrible decision for my personality type, and if my parents could have stepped in and suggested it might have been a poor choice based on who I actually am (notice this is congruent with the argument you're making), it could have been infinitely helpful and it might have saved me a lot of time and energy.

Going back to the male/female stereotypes, of course a parent should be supportive in their kids decisions/interests, but if reality can serve as a guide in any capacity, why not leverage that? I'm not saying a parent should dictate life path to their kids, I'm saying understanding women or men has the potential to help a boy or girl understand themselves. Given it's obviously not an absolute guide.

 

[Toni]

No.

The thing to do is encourage your child (and children and people of all ages) to pursue their own interests and explore and develop their own talents WITHOUT making a judgment about whether more boys or more girls like this or that or are good at that or are perceived as being good or bad at this or that and therefore if you don't follow the path into the machine, your life will be harder and sad and lonely and you probably aren't really a girl or a boy anyway.

Rage against the machine.

I don't see the judgement part in my post, I see parents teaching their children about the world. I also added a.. "if those things don't interest you, that's ok too".

Maybe it would have been better stated like this:

"Be whatever you want to be, but I might be able to help you understand who you are"

For instance.. I was an introvert for my entire life. My parents didn't notice, and even now I'm not sure they totally understand what an introvert is. I went into teaching at 23 which was a horrible decision for my personality type, and if my parents could have stepped in and suggested it might have been a poor choice based on who I actually am (notice this is congruent with the argument you're making), it could have been infinitely helpful and it might have saved me a lot of time and energy.

Going back to the male/female stereotypes, of course a parent should be supportive in their kids decisions/interests, but if reality can serve as a guide in any capacity, why not leverage that? I'm not saying a parent should dictate life path to their kids, I'm saying understanding women or men has the potential to help a boy or girl understand themselves. Given it's obviously not an absolute guide.

Certainly, parents can guide but mostly they should encourage to explore, to work hard, to follow through. But they need to guide based on their children's actual abilities and interests, not on gender norms. Or perceived gender norms.

 

[rousseau]

I don't see the judgement part in my post, I see parents teaching their children about the world. I also added a.. "if those things don't interest you, that's ok too".

Maybe it would have been better stated like this:

"Be whatever you want to be, but I might be able to help you understand who you are"

For instance.. I was an introvert for my entire life. My parents didn't notice, and even now I'm not sure they totally understand what an introvert is. I went into teaching at 23 which was a horrible decision for my personality type, and if my parents could have stepped in and suggested it might have been a poor choice based on who I actually am (notice this is congruent with the argument you're making), it could have been infinitely helpful and it might have saved me a lot of time and energy.

Going back to the male/female stereotypes, of course a parent should be supportive in their kids decisions/interests, but if reality can serve as a guide in any capacity, why not leverage that? I'm not saying a parent should dictate life path to their kids, I'm saying understanding women or men has the potential to help a boy or girl understand themselves. Given it's obviously not an absolute guide.

Certainly, parents can guide but mostly they should encourage to explore, to work hard, to follow through. But they need to guide based on their children's actual abilities and interests, not on gender norms. Or perceived gender norms.

Yea of course. I guess pragmatism always rules at the end of the day. If a girl has unreal math ability and loves programming why discourage her from programming? If a girl has a range of interests and is unsure of her passion why not casually mention that women classically like and do well at [x], [y], and [z], if that's actually true and might be a solid avenue for her? Worse case scenario she shows no interest and you don't push the issue any further.

 

[DBT]

That has nothing to do with anything.

It certainly does have something to do with what I said about culture shaping thoughts and expectations, that basically we are shaped by our time and culture (including genetics of course).

Conclusion
''While there has been much debate, and some confusion, about the differences between sexual identity and gender identity as well as how these concepts influence sexual orientation, identity formation is considered to be a significant part of an individual’s socialization (Browne, 2008). Cultural influences play a large part in this process as culture defines acceptable behaviors for men and women (Schalkwyk, 2000). While some cultures continue to question an individual’s right to express him or herself as he or she sees fit, others are starting to understand and accept those who fall outside what traditionally has been considered normal. Culture changes occur slowly, but they do occur, in reaction to shifts in social and economic pressures, globalization, new technologies, armed conflict, and changes in laws (Schalkwyk, 2000). At some point these changes may promote a better understanding of individual differences as well as worldwide acceptance for everyone, no matter what sex or gender they identify with or what sexual orientation category that fall into.''

Not according to these two Norwegian may I say "scientists".

Which two?

May but won't.

What do you mean? Are you saying that all of those who decide to go into nursing are not capable of studying for an Engineering degree and passing? Are you saying that their career in nursing is determined by their genes?

 

[barbos]

It certainly does have something to do with what I said about culture shaping thoughts and expectations, that basically we are shaped by our time and culture (including genetics of course).

And studies have shown it has nothing to do with the problem. Watch the damn video.

Conclusion
''While there has been much debate, and some confusion, about the differences between sexual identity and gender identity as well as how these concepts influence sexual orientation, identity formation is considered to be a significant part of an individual’s socialization (Browne, 2008). Cultural influences play a large part in this process as culture defines acceptable behaviors for men and women (Schalkwyk, 2000). While some cultures continue to question an individual’s right to express him or herself as he or she sees fit, others are starting to understand and accept those who fall outside what traditionally has been considered normal. Culture changes occur slowly, but they do occur, in reaction to shifts in social and economic pressures, globalization, new technologies, armed conflict, and changes in laws (Schalkwyk, 2000). At some point these changes may promote a better understanding of individual differences as well as worldwide acceptance for everyone, no matter what sex or gender they identify with or what sexual orientation category that fall into.''

Not according to these two Norwegian may I say "scientists".

Which two?

From the video

May but won't.

What do you mean? Are you saying that all of those who decide to go into nursing are not capable of studying for an Engineering degree and passing? Are you saying that their career in nursing is determined by their genes?

Name one registered nurse who switched to engineering.
Yes, genes for the most part determine what you are including your general career, in free countries like Norway anyway.

 

[Toni]

Certainly, parents can guide but mostly they should encourage to explore, to work hard, to follow through. But they need to guide based on their children's actual abilities and interests, not on gender norms. Or perceived gender norms.

Yea of course. I guess pragmatism always rules at the end of the day. If a girl has unreal math ability and loves programming why discourage her from programming? If a girl has a range of interests and is unsure of her passion why not casually mention that women classically like and do well at [x], [y], and [z], if that's actually true and might be a solid avenue for her? Worse case scenario she shows no interest and you don't push the issue any further.

Wow. So a girl must have extraordinary math skills to be a...programmer?

Wow.

If a girl or a boy has extraordinary math skills, I would hope they would find something more interesting and useful to do than be a programmer.

If she has a range of interests and a brain, she can make up her own mind. A parents' role is to support her in her development and to encourage her to pursue her talents and aspirations, to work hard, be courageous, kind, thoughtful and to perservir.

Same thing as with a boy.

Period.

A kids job is to grow up and make their own way in life, even if it rocks the expectations and limits of their parents' imagination. Parents need to step out of the way and not let their own prejudices and weaknesses harm their kids.

 

[barbos]

There was a recent study of effect of testosterone on women. They found even single injection instantly makes them better at spatial navigation, ability which is linked to mathematical abilities.
In other studies it was found that women and men use different parts of the brain when solving the same task. In general women use different parts of the brain more equally, whereas men are more concentrated on certain specialized parts.
So it suggests that it's not so much about differences in the brain (which still exists) but about how it's used and hormones play a significant role.
So this explains why women are bad at mathematics and such, they can't turn off "feeling" part of the brain which interfere with "thinking" part of the brain. Men on the other hand have "feeling" part suppressed to begin with.

And yet, I was the best math student in my high school. By quite a lot. My sister is also quite good at math--better than I am because she likes it more.

There is no math in school, especially in US. And it is a mistake to draw conclusions from individual examples.

While there might be differences in abilities and traits among large groups of boys and girls, it is a mistake to attach this to individuals.

And where did I do that?

I've known women who were terrible 'people persons' and who lacked much obvious ability to empathize with others. I've known men who are warm and empathetic. I've known men who are bad at math and science; women who excel at both.

 

[DBT]

And studies have shown it has nothing to do with the problem. Watch the damn video.

Sorry, I don't watch videos. Post a quote from any relevant study, or summarise.

From the video

No good to me.

Yes, genes for the most part determine what you are including your general career, in free countries like Norway anyway.

The human brain isn't that rigid that it can't adapt to different careers, if it has the intellectual capacity.

Name one registered nurse who switched to engineering.

Better yet, here's a duel degree in nursing and bio medical engineering:
quote;
''The BME-BSN integrates clinical knowledge and patient care with engineering techniques in a single academic program''


And a quick search, here is a lady who wants to get out of nursing and the medical industry altogether and become an engineer.

quote;
''I am a 34 year old nurse. I have decided to change careers. I want to be an engineer. I know that I would love Bio-medical, but I am really looking to get out of medicine. I would like some advice.
First, Is being a older a female going to be a challenge for me as an entry level engineer?
Are there any women here whom have turned to engineering later in life?
Second, I am a mother so my commute to school is a major factor in deciding what sub-specialty to choose and what universities are available to me. My local university only offers AAS in either Building and Environmental Systems, Architecture, or Electrical Engineering, all of which interest me. I can then transfer to another local campus to finish an Electro-Mechanical BS or apply to a different university for a BS in engineering. ''

 

[barbos]

Sorry, I don't watch videos. Post a quote from any relevant study, or summarise.

From the video

No good to me.

I am sorry but you have to watch the video or at least learn to google, but I suspect you know how to google, that's where you got your irrelevant links.

Yes, genes for the most part determine what you are including your general career, in free countries like Norway anyway.

The human brain isn't that rigid that it can't adapt to different careers, if it has the intellectual capacity.

Name one registered nurse who switched to engineering.

Better yet, here's a duel degree in nursing and bio medical engineering:
quote;
''The BME-BSN integrates clinical knowledge and patient care with engineering techniques in a single academic program''


And a quick search, here is a lady who wants to get out of nursing and the medical industry altogether and become an engineer.

quote;
''I am a 34 year old nurse. I have decided to change careers. I want to be an engineer. I know that I would love Bio-medical, but I am really looking to get out of medicine. I would like some advice.
First, Is being a older a female going to be a challenge for me as an entry level engineer?
Are there any women here whom have turned to engineering later in life?
Second, I am a mother so my commute to school is a major factor in deciding what sub-specialty to choose and what universities are available to me. My local university only offers AAS in either Building and Environmental Systems, Architecture, or Electrical Engineering, all of which interest me. I can then transfer to another local campus to finish an Electro-Mechanical BS or apply to a different university for a BS in engineering. ''

LOL, power of google search. You can literally find anything. Unfortunately sometimes what you find is bullshit.

 

[DBT]

LOL, power of google search. You can literally find anything. Unfortunately sometimes what you find is bullshit.

It's not bullshit because you say so. I support my claim that choice of career is not that rigid, and that culture plays a part in shaping personality and character. It's your claim that career options are so narrow for individuals that someone who happens to choose nursing (as if that's genetically determined) is literally incapable of doing an engineering degree that is absurd.