Female vs Male Psychology

[barbos]

The video also shows that there are social reasons for the differences between men and women's career choices. Egeland, Lorentzen and Huitfeldt all point out that there are differences in the way in which boys and girls are treated, and society sets norms for boys and girls. Eia visits a toy store to show this in action.

You must be trolling me. Video shows no such thing. It merely shows these people making such claims, unsupported by studies.

 

[rousseau]

rousseau, so you went to programming because of the money? that's very practical of you.
As you may have noticed I have a hard time processing how people over 20 can be deciding between nursing career and let say programming.
That's just does not compute for me, but I am a dumb boy who pretty much had known general direction since the age of 10 and completely decided by the age of 16

Went into programming mainly because I had just spent a few years teaching and realized I just wanted to sit in front of a computer all day with headphones in. I also made the realization that computer programming would pay well AND offer me a real challenge to get into, which I needed because I'm easily bored. So the money was a consideration, but it was mostly a decision about my personality. Seemed to turn out well too.

 

[barbos]

Biomedical engineering has a large amount of overlap with electrical engineering, including math, sensors and actuators, and microcontrollers, as well as overlap with mechanical engineering. Your personal definition of engineering is bullshit.

Yeah, and DeWry is a real university, I am being sarcastic here in case you are misreading cues again.

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rousseau, so you went to programming because of the money? that's very practical of you.
As you may have noticed I have a hard time processing how people over 20 can be deciding between nursing career and let say programming.
That's just does not compute for me, but I am a dumb boy who pretty much had known general direction since the age of 10 and completely decided by the age of 16

Went into programming mainly because I had just spent a few years teaching and realized I just wanted to sit in front of a computer all day with headphones in. I also made the realization that computer programming would pay well AND offer me a real challenge to get into, which I needed because I'm easily bored. So the money was a consideration, but it was mostly a decision about my personality. Seemed to turn out well too.

Teaching what exactly? And headphones? why would you want to sit with headphones all day?

 

[bigfield]

A couple of questions:

What is a 'typical girl' in your opinion? How would she differ from a 'typical boy?'

I define a typical girl as someone whose traits are close to the means for their gender. She would differ from a typical boy in whichever ways boys and girls differ statistically. It's a purely theoretical definition; I couldn't point out a typical girl in real life.

How do you separate practicing a bit of amateur sociology and psychology for the benefit of your children from avoiding stereotyping your children?

Learning some sociology and psychology does not leads one to embracing stereotypes, but to identifying them and learning to think without them.

I often disagreed--very strongly--with my father but one of the best pieces of advice he ever gave to me was to think for myself. I should make up my own mind, not based upon what other people thought. It was an extremely powerful thing to say.

Cool story.

 

[rousseau]

Wow. So a girl must have extraordinary math skills to be a...programmer?

Wow.

If a girl or a boy has extraordinary math skills, I would hope they would find something more interesting and useful to do than be a programmer.

Just wanted to make a quick comment on this because it's a little surprising.

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field. My comment though was just a passive example and not any kind of political statement about women.

And re: 'interesting and useful', software development is now not only one of the fastest growing, and highest paid professions in the world, it's also more or less on the cutting edge of the global economy, so yea it probably would be a pretty good career option for most women with interest.

 

[barbos]

I often disagreed--very strongly--with my father but one of the best pieces of advice he ever gave to me was to think for myself. I should make up my own mind, not based upon what other people thought. It was an extremely powerful thing to say.

Cool story.

Seriously? I mean seriously? What is so fucking cool about that?

 

[rousseau]

Yeah, and DeWry is a real university, I am being sarcastic here in case you are misreading cues again.

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rousseau, so you went to programming because of the money? that's very practical of you.
As you may have noticed I have a hard time processing how people over 20 can be deciding between nursing career and let say programming.
That's just does not compute for me, but I am a dumb boy who pretty much had known general direction since the age of 10 and completely decided by the age of 16

Went into programming mainly because I had just spent a few years teaching and realized I just wanted to sit in front of a computer all day with headphones in. I also made the realization that computer programming would pay well AND offer me a real challenge to get into, which I needed because I'm easily bored. So the money was a consideration, but it was mostly a decision about my personality. Seemed to turn out well too.

Teaching what exactly? And headphones? why would you want to sit with headphones all day?

Was a science teacher briefly. Headphones was a bit of an exaggeration but it's an allusion to my introversion. I'm a pretty strong introvert so a secluded job is suitable for me. I am pretty good socially when I need to be at work, it just tires me out quickly.

 

[bigfield]

I'd post the article if I had an inkling where to find it, was something he posted on Twitter a long time ago.

I don't disagree with the bolded but, in my mind, there's a subtle difference between what I'm suggesting and right out dictating the path of your child.

There's telling them who they should be, and then there's teaching them about the world. I see your point that you'd want to avoid reinforcing norms, and also that your children's actual interests would be king, but how about this:

- don't even have a conversation in the context of gender norms, if you notice your kid has the qualities of a strong programmer/engineer, maybe say something like "hey you're awesome at this, people who are awesome at that often like this field.. why not check out this field and see if it interests you, if not be whatever you want to be because I'm an awesome supportive parent who's just trying to give you ideas

or

- hey, in the world there's this shitty thing called gender norming, and in my opinion there's no reason why you need to follow gender norms, however, statistically people with [x] or [y] quality that you have are very good at this set of professions, why not check them out and see if they interest you, if not be whatever you want to be because I'm an awesome supportive parent who's just trying to give you ideas

I don't see any reason why a parent can't have a rational, open conversation with their kid about their future and not avoid brain-washing or dictating to them. It's just guidance and conversation from someone who has decades more experience with the world than their child.

But yes, your child's actual interests are clearly number one. The original point I made was more about using reality to inform decision making when pragmatic to do so, than an absolute guide.

Yea I get you should let your kid think for themselves, and be the principle decision maker, although as a parent I think you need to recognize that your child probably also has extremely limited information and has no idea why/when/what/how or anything. So in a world where it costs 80k to get a college education it makes sense to me to try to inform them about their options before they make a decision.

And this is someone who's speaking from experience. When I was growing up I could have easily completed a computer science or engineering degree right out of high school and been in the workforce for almost 8 years already, and even been making 6 figures, but because I had zero guidance from my parents I made a long series of dumb mistakes before stumbling to the finish line.

In your previous post, you used the following example:

- women tend to like [a], , and [c] so there's a good chance that type of thing might be suitable for you, so give it some thought. If you don't feel your passionate about it, on the other hand, that's ok too.

You proposed to guide the child based on her sex. In the new examples you've provided in this later post, you propose to guide the child based on qualities they have expressed, which is completely different than guiding the child based on sex.

 

[barbos]

Wow. So a girl must have extraordinary math skills to be a...programmer?

Wow.

If a girl or a boy has extraordinary math skills, I would hope they would find something more interesting and useful to do than be a programmer.

Just wanted to make a quick comment on this because it's a little surprising.

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field. My comment though was just a passive example and not any kind of political statement about women.

And re: 'interesting and useful', software development is now not only one of the fastest growing, and highest paid professions in the world, it's also more or less on the cutting edge of the global economy, so yea it probably would be a pretty good career option for most women with interest.

Nurses are paid well too.

 

[rousseau]

In your previous post, you used the following example:

- women tend to like [a], , and [c] so there's a good chance that type of thing might be suitable for you, so give it some thought. If you don't feel your passionate about it, on the other hand, that's ok too.

You proposed to guide the child based on her sex. In the new examples you've provided in this later post, you propose to guide the child based on qualities they have expressed, which is completely different than guiding the child based on sex.

Yea, you're right, I did, and you responded with a good point, and I continued on the conversation.

Loose wording is the bane of forums I guess. The over-arching point, back to my original post, is that if science can tell us something real and true about something, that's useful information which can be leveraged in an intelligent way when pragmatic to do so.

 

[rousseau]

Just wanted to make a quick comment on this because it's a little surprising.

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field. My comment though was just a passive example and not any kind of political statement about women.

And re: 'interesting and useful', software development is now not only one of the fastest growing, and highest paid professions in the world, it's also more or less on the cutting edge of the global economy, so yea it probably would be a pretty good career option for most women with interest.

Nurses are paid well too.

Health and IT are 1 and 2.

 

[barbos]

Nurses are paid well too.

Health and IT are 1 and 2.

That's what I said, why are you repeating me?

 

[fromderinside]

Health and IT are 1 and 2.

That's what I said, why are you repeating me?

The question arises are you peat or repeat. See discussion to follow.

 

[Toni]

Wow. So a girl must have extraordinary math skills to be a...programmer?

Wow.

If a girl or a boy has extraordinary math skills, I would hope they would find something more interesting and useful to do than be a programmer.

Just wanted to make a quick comment on this because it's a little surprising.

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field. My comment though was just a passive example and not any kind of political statement about women.

And re: 'interesting and useful', software development is now not only one of the fastest growing, and highest paid professions in the world, it's also more or less on the cutting edge of the global economy, so yea it probably would be a pretty good career option for most women with interest.

I know a number of people in programming and IT.

My remark was half joke but the truth is that those are fields are ones that would bore me to tears. I know that it can be a well paying line of work.

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Just wanted to make a quick comment on this because it's a little surprising.

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field. My comment though was just a passive example and not any kind of political statement about women.

And re: 'interesting and useful', software development is now not only one of the fastest growing, and highest paid professions in the world, it's also more or less on the cutting edge of the global economy, so yea it probably would be a pretty good career option for most women with interest.

Nurses are paid well too.

Not as well as doctors.

 

[barbos]

Just wanted to make a quick comment on this because it's a little surprising.

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field. My comment though was just a passive example and not any kind of political statement about women.

And re: 'interesting and useful', software development is now not only one of the fastest growing, and highest paid professions in the world, it's also more or less on the cutting edge of the global economy, so yea it probably would be a pretty good career option for most women with interest.

Nurses are paid well too.

Not as well as doctors.

I doubt rousseau had such option.

 

[rousseau]

Just wanted to make a quick comment on this because it's a little surprising.

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field. My comment though was just a passive example and not any kind of political statement about women.

And re: 'interesting and useful', software development is now not only one of the fastest growing, and highest paid professions in the world, it's also more or less on the cutting edge of the global economy, so yea it probably would be a pretty good career option for most women with interest.

Nurses are paid well too.

Not as well as doctors.

I doubt rousseau had such option.

Was actually my original intention when I went to school but a series of study abroad and mental health issues put my GPA under the threshold.

Worked out well in the end, though, because I have zero desire to be in the health care field now, actually one of the reasons I left science altogether.

 

[bigfield]

Cool story.

Seriously? I mean seriously? What is so fucking cool about that?

Sarcasm.

Yeah, and DeWry is a real university, I am being sarcastic here in case you are misreading cues again.

Ironic.

The video also shows that there are social reasons for the differences between men and women's career choices. Egeland, Lorentzen and Huitfeldt all point out that there are differences in the way in which boys and girls are treated, and society sets norms for boys and girls. Eia visits a toy store to show this in action.

You must be trolling me. Video shows no such thing. It merely shows these people making such claims, unsupported by studies.

I'm not trolling you. That's a stupid thing to suggest.

In your previous post you said:

But women don't want to be programmers, they want to be nurses and teachers. That's what that video discuss and the reasons for that are biological and evolutionary.

The only person providing an opinion on the evolutionary aspect of psychological differences is Anne Campbell. Eia present Campbell as an authority and does not cite any studies. You are willing to accept her claims on authority, but simultaneously unwilling to accept others' claim made on authority.

The influence of gender stereotypes on children's development has been documented since last millennium and is accepted by mainstream sociology:

Socialization of Gender Differences
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ifferences/links/00b7d5166b7647bc78000000.pdf

Parent-Child Physical Play: The Effect of Sex and Sex of Children and Parents
http://web.csulb.edu/~kmacd/SexRoles.pdf

Differential reactions to assertive and communicative acts of toddler boys and girls.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4075871

 

[bigfield]

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field.

Programmers definitely do not need good math skills.

 

[rousseau]

No math skills don't mean programming is your only option, but yes the vast majority of programmers I know have exceptional ability in math, which is almost a requisite to be skilled in the field.

Programmers definitely do not need good math skills.

It's not 'math skills' per se, it's the potential to do math. I have to believe there's a pretty strong correlation between math and programming ability. Both require pretty strong logical reasoning as well as an ability to think in the abstract, if you don't have those abilities you're likely going to be a weak programmer.

Once the 200ish students in my programming diploma were wittled into 60 graduates almost every person left standing had strong logical reasoning skills and ease in mathematics, and those who didn't were in every case in the bottom GPA tier.

Of course to be a developer communication is king too, but I'm yet to hear a strong argument that someone who struggles in math could excel in programming.

 

[bigfield]

Programmers definitely do not need good math skills.

It's not 'math skills' per se, it's the potential to do math. I have to believe there's a pretty strong correlation between math and programming ability. Both require pretty strong logical reasoning as well as an ability to think in the abstract, if you don't have those abilities you're likely going to be a weak programmer.

Once the 200ish students in my programming diploma were wittled into 60 graduates almost every person left standing had strong logical reasoning skills and ease in mathematics, and those who didn't were in every case in the bottom GPA tier.

Of course to be a developer communication is king too, but I'm yet to hear a strong argument that someone who struggles in math could excel in programming.

Looks like we just had different ideas about what you meant by 'exceptional ability in math'. I was thinking of actualised ability to do stuff like differential systems, linear algebra, matrix algebra etc. Anything less than that isn't exceptional.