Florida Stand Your Ground Allows Another Murder to Go Unprosecuted

[RavenSky]

Of course, one way to make sure someone goes unconvicted is to simply never charge them in the first place. thanks Florida State Attorney!

http://www.ocala.com/article/20140710/ARTICLES/140719997?p=1&tc=pg

Once again, the dead person is demonized (even though earlier reports had the victim as universally well-liked), but even if he was the bad guy the State Attorney wants us to now believe he was... he was shot TEN TiMES IN THE BACK while he was walking away.

Unlike most other SYG case (Zimmerman, Dunn, Waner in Detroit), it is clear that TJ Brown did in fact start an actual violent confrontation. But this case even better highlights what is fucked up about this SYG law - it is basically legalizing vigilante acts. Colt Thiemer had ever opportunity to retreat, every opportunity to avoid killing another human being. TJ Brown was WALKING AWAY. Instead of retreating, calling police, etc, Colt Thiemer decided to kill the retreating man, flee the scene, then later claim "fear for his life"

 

[Keith&Co.]

Of course, one way to make sure a cowardly SYG murderer goes unconvicted is to simply never charge them in the first place. thanks Florida State Attorney!

Well, yes. The crafty authors of the law made sure to spell out that someone with an SYG defense cannot be prosecuted. The DA would be breaking the law by charging them.

d is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force … . As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.24

 

[barbos]

I doubt threat of prosecution would have prevented this.
Medical fact is, 20 year olds can not be fully trusted with guns, they don't have fully developed prefrontal cortex for that. They are still basically kids.

 

[barbos]

Well, if that's true then they were not friends anymore.

 

[Bronzeage]

I doubt threat of prosecution would have prevented this.
Medical fact is, 20 year olds can not be fully trusted with guns, they don't have fully developed prefrontal cortex for that. They are still basically kids.

I hope this is a facetious statement. I know quite a few under 20 year olds who were given an automatic rifle by their government.

 

[barbos]

I doubt threat of prosecution would have prevented this.
Medical fact is, 20 year olds can not be fully trusted with guns, they don't have fully developed prefrontal cortex for that. They are still basically kids.

I hope this is a facetious statement. I know quite a few under 20 year olds who were given an automatic rifle by their government.

Yeah, and government have older folk to watch them.
When I say "medical fact", I "mean medical fact".
There is a reason why drivers under 25 pay higher insurance - prefrontal cortex is not fully developed.

 

[Bronzeage]

I hope this is a facetious statement. I know quite a few under 20 year olds who were given an automatic rifle by their government.

Yeah, and government have older folk to watch them.
When I say "medical fact", I "mean medical fact".
There is a reason why drivers under 25 pay higher insurance - prefrontal cortex is not fully developed.

I thought it was because they had a higher rate of accidents, something much easier to quantify than prefrontal cortex development.

It's nice to cite a general medical fact, but relating this fact to the actions of an individual is not valid, as many millions of under 25 year olds can be found making critical decisions in moments of great stress, and making the correct decision.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's nice to cite a general medical fact, but relating this fact to the actions of an individual is not valid, as many millions of under 25 year olds can be found making critical decisions in moments of great stress, and making the correct decision.

I don't know. A lot of that group is going and getting a degree in History or Philosophy or some shit like that and expecting to find a job afterwards and many of them buy Justin Beiber records, so those things kind of undercut your position.

 

[Bronzeage]

It's nice to cite a general medical fact, but relating this fact to the actions of an individual is not valid, as many millions of under 25 year olds can be found making critical decisions in moments of great stress, and making the correct decision.

I don't know. A lot of that group is going and getting a degree in History or Philosophy or some shit like that and expecting to find a job afterwards and many of them buy Justin Beiber records, so those things kind of undercut your position.

I suppose you may be right. The degree in history and philosophy was invented when there was an active selective service draft. When the draft ended, the thing had some kind of inertia of its own and just wouldn't stop. This doesn't explain the Bieber records, but we must remember, most of those purchases are made by 12 year olds, who aren't trusted with a driving license or an assault rifle, in most states. I'm not sure about Canadian regulations.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I suppose you may be right. The degree in history and philosophy was invented when there was an active selective service draft. When the draft ended, the thing had some kind of inertia of its own and just wouldn't stop. This doesn't explain the Bieber records, but we must remember, most of those purchases are made by 12 year olds, who aren't trusted with a driving license or an assault rifle, in most states. I'm not sure about Canadian regulations.

I don't know. We didn't have a draft and we still have a bunch of people spending years of their life getting those degrees and then wondering why they're living in their parents' basement as opposed to in a mansion on their private island. The under-developed brains is a better explanation.

Also, Canadians don't buy Beiber records. You Yanks raised the import duties on forestry products as part of a trade war, so we sent him down to the States as a retaliatory attack. Then you folded and dropped the taxes but we just left him down there because ... because fuck you, that's why.

 

[Bronzeage]

I suppose you may be right. The degree in history and philosophy was invented when there was an active selective service draft. When the draft ended, the thing had some kind of inertia of its own and just wouldn't stop. This doesn't explain the Bieber records, but we must remember, most of those purchases are made by 12 year olds, who aren't trusted with a driving license or an assault rifle, in most states. I'm not sure about Canadian regulations.

I don't know. We didn't have a draft and we still have a bunch of people spending years of their life getting those degrees and then wondering why they're living in their parents' basement as opposed to in a mansion on their private island. The under-developed brains is a better explanation.

Also, Canadians don't buy Beiber records. You Yanks raised the import duties on forestry products as part of a trade war, so we sent him down to the States as a retaliatory attack. Then you folded and dropped the taxes but we just left him down there because ... because fuck you, that's why.

When I was in school, the active draft had just ended. I had to get a draft card when I was a senior in highschool. This was cool because it was considered a legal ID for buying beer. I knew several Phil majors who had all enrolled in college to get a deferment. They were long since safe, but after 5 or 6 years in a major, they wanted to see it through. Ten years later, they were still there, but as faculty, instead of students. The College of Philosophy lost it's place in the Graduate School, after and accreditation exam found that half of the faculty held their doctorates from our dear old school. It's the academic equivalent of living in your mother's basement.

As for Bieber, shouldn't that be, "because fuck you, eh."

 

[Underseer]

I suppose you may be right. The degree in history and philosophy was invented when there was an active selective service draft. When the draft ended, the thing had some kind of inertia of its own and just wouldn't stop. This doesn't explain the Bieber records, but we must remember, most of those purchases are made by 12 year olds, who aren't trusted with a driving license or an assault rifle, in most states. I'm not sure about Canadian regulations.

I don't know. We didn't have a draft and we still have a bunch of people spending years of their life getting those degrees and then wondering why they're living in their parents' basement as opposed to in a mansion on their private island. The under-developed brains is a better explanation.

Also, Canadians don't buy Beiber records. You Yanks raised the import duties on forestry products as part of a trade war, so we sent him down to the States as a retaliatory attack. Then you folded and dropped the taxes but we just left him down there because ... because fuck you, that's why.

Do that again, and we will send weapons-grade Palin-types your way. Don't think for a minute that we don't have more of those lying around.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I doubt threat of prosecution would have prevented this.
Medical fact is, 20 year olds can not be fully trusted with guns, they don't have fully developed prefrontal cortex for that. They are still basically kids.

I hope this is a facetious statement. I know quite a few under 20 year olds who were given an automatic rifle by their government.

Yes, but they were then sent to foreign lands to use it, where they would only kill "bad" people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, and government have older folk to watch them.
When I say "medical fact", I "mean medical fact".
There is a reason why drivers under 25 pay higher insurance - prefrontal cortex is not fully developed.

I thought it was because they had a higher rate of accidents, something much easier to quantify than prefrontal cortex development.

It's nice to cite a general medical fact, but relating this fact to the actions of an individual is not valid, as many millions of under 25 year olds can be found making critical decisions in moments of great stress, and making the correct decision.

And how much of the increased accident rate is actually just due to less experience?

And the lack of real comprehension of their own mortality?

 

[Bronzeage]

I thought it was because they had a higher rate of accidents, something much easier to quantify than prefrontal cortex development.

It's nice to cite a general medical fact, but relating this fact to the actions of an individual is not valid, as many millions of under 25 year olds can be found making critical decisions in moments of great stress, and making the correct decision.

And how much of the increased accident rate is actually just due to less experience?

And the lack of real comprehension of their own mortality?

It's a circular argument and not really related to this thread. Experience spurs brain development which leads to good judgment and poor judgment will lead to a lot of experience.

I don't think lack of real comprehension of ones own mortality does not necessarily lead to excess risk taking, but it does effect the type of risks a person will take. A teenager may pass a slower vehicle, when the line of vision is obscured, but pass a chain smoking man who just ate a 2200 calorie meal.

 

[Underseer]

And how much of the increased accident rate is actually just due to less experience?

And the lack of real comprehension of their own mortality?

It's a circular argument and not really related to this thread. Experience spurs brain development which leads to good judgment and poor judgment will lead to a lot of experience.

I don't think lack of real comprehension of ones own mortality does not necessarily lead to excess risk taking, but it does effect the type of risks a person will take. A teenager may pass a slower vehicle, when the line of vision is obscured, but pass a chain smoking man who just ate a 2200 calorie meal.

Are you suggesting that smoking is bad for you?

I'm sorry, but that's just bad science. Patriotic Real Americans^TM get our information from unbiased sources which have proven that there is no causal link between smoking and health problems.

Why yes. I am old enough to remember when rightists argued that smoking doesn't cause health risks.

 

[Bronzeage]

It's a circular argument and not really related to this thread. Experience spurs brain development which leads to good judgment and poor judgment will lead to a lot of experience.

I don't think lack of real comprehension of ones own mortality does not necessarily lead to excess risk taking, but it does effect the type of risks a person will take. A teenager may pass a slower vehicle, when the line of vision is obscured, but pass a chain smoking man who just ate a 2200 calorie meal.

Are you suggesting that smoking is bad for you?

I'm sorry, but that's just bad science. Patriotic Real Americans^TM get our information from unbiased sources which have proven that there is no causal link between smoking and health problems.

Why yes. I am old enough to remember when rightists argued that smoking doesn't cause health risks.

It's always easy to see the unreasonable risk others take.

I have always been a person with a very low level of person fear. This has led me to take incredible risks in the past. It is only my very fast learning rate which has allowed my judgment to improve, just ahead of the expanding opportunities to take risks.

 

[Sabine Grant]

SYG defense did not mean to apply to a situation where the shot or killed party had already disengaged from the confrontation/dispute. There must be evidence that at the time the other party was shot and killed (use of lethal force), such party presented a threat of imminent death or severe bodily harm.

The SA argumentation is not taking the above into account. A broadening of the application of the SYG language to include previous threats of death/bodily harm while the threatening party has already disengaged is justifiably questionable.

 

[Bronzeage]

SYG defense did not mean to apply to a situation where the shot or killed party had already disengaged from the confrontation/dispute. There must be evidence that at the time the other party was shot and killed (use of lethal force), such party presented a threat of imminent death or severe bodily harm.

The SA argumentation is not taking the above into account. A broadening of the application of the SYG language to include previous threats of death/bodily harm while the threatening party has already disengaged is justifiably questionable.

Not necessarily. The Stand Your Ground defense relies on the shooter's perception of events, not the reality of them. The original intent(as stated by legislators, at the time) of the law was to remove any reason for a citizen to refrain from responding with deadly force, for fear of repercussions. It specifically removed the obligation to retreat to safety, in order to save lives.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

SYG defense did not mean to apply to a situation where the shot or killed party had already disengaged from the confrontation/dispute. There must be evidence that at the time the other party was shot and killed (use of lethal force), such party presented a threat of imminent death or severe bodily harm.

The SA argumentation is not taking the above into account. A broadening of the application of the SYG language to include previous threats of death/bodily harm while the threatening party has already disengaged is justifiably questionable.

Not necessarily. The Stand Your Ground defense relies on the shooter's perception of events, not the reality of them. The original intent(as stated by legislators, at the time) of the law was to remove any reason for a citizen to refrain from responding with deadly force, for fear of repercussions. It specifically removed the obligation to retreat to safety, in order to save lives.

Exactly. Past threats can change a person's evaluation of the threat posed by a given action.

Mr A has a habit of prank-robbing people with an airsoft gun.

Mr B has been known to scare off someone with firing live bullets to miss.

You're going to be a lot more scared of a threat from Mr. B than from Mr. A.