For Christians:If god exists why must you prove it?

[Angry Floof]

Yes, thank you for understanding the point of atheism.

Does Lion actually understand that ^This^ means complete agreement with the ideas expressed by the above (or quoted) post?

Yep. I do.

Tigers refers us to purpose-driven atheists who put so much effort into their counter-apologetic proselytising for atheism, that one assumes it's an existential thingy. Such folks can't call themselves 'non stamp collectors' They go to global atheism conferences, promote atheology and actually claim atheism as their worldview. (Michel Onfray, Alain de Botton, PZ Myers, Peter Boghossian...who was that A plusser lady?)

But I fully agree with Keith&Co that atheism doesn't "power your life". It disempowers you.
It reduces your carbon-based, spontaneously occurring, temporary life on this mundane, microscopic spec of dirt called Earth, to (Camusian) absurdity. Atheism = Myth of Sisyphus.

15-20 years ago there was a vociferously strong atheist who happened to be the Undernet IRC channel manager of #Atheism. His username was AlkKey. Over time his atheism (non-stamp collecting) became more and more tentative. He was slowly converting to theism, then monotheism, then biblical theism, then he finally landed on Christianity. Asked why he left atheism, he told many of us that the main reason was because atheism was too limiting - it inhibited his free thought. It was boring and pointless. And he felt that we (humans) were innately, inherently, spiritually, full of more potential than what atheism imposes.

I agree with that for people who do form atheism as a fundamental principle of their values, morality, or identity, or whatever.

I do feel strongly that group myths, concepts, symbols, and rituals are just human reality, but that we can consciously choose those symbols and concepts. In fact, we DO that all the time on the level of subconscious social behaviors, and religion is an obvious artifact of that and not a source of that as some identity ideologists seem to think.

And if someone accepts that and begins choosing what is meaningful and useful in their human experience to ritualize and establish as important pillars in their world view, well, I can think of a universe of other symbols and concepts that would appeal to and be meaningful for any intelligent mammal besides human sacrifice, threats of eternal torture, and that our nature, at its core, is deemed from the outset as unworthy.

For me, that's the most useful aspect of calling myself an atheist in response to issues related to religious ideology - I am free to question any of that or take any of that as my own and can explain in humane terms and terms of actual first-hand human experiences, such as empathy, for example, as well as the fact that empathy can be cultivated in ourselves by our own choice and in others. I have no problem explaining why I think much of the most core beliefs, the more ghoulish and punishing of beliefs, and the more popular belief concepts in Christian America are inhumane and even traumatizing and damaging to individuals and groups.

So I really don't understand how someone could claim to be that free of thought and still have the stomach to adopt such a twisted, incoherent, infantilizing story to represent the ultimate meaning of their human value and experience.

Thanks also for reminding me that there are atheism-based world views. But I think that develops among people who have dedicated, if not their lives, a great amount of time and thought engaging in debates and big questions and issues, someone like, say, Richard Dawkins. I appreciate what they do even though I don't personally want to go to that extent in talking about what atheism means to me other than that I'm simply not bound by a religious belief system or group identity when I question things or just go about my life.

 

[steve_bank]

It is one o tfhe tnheist bag of tricks. Turnabout claiming atheists are no differnt than theists in behavior. Theists and atheists are both purposem druve.

So were the Nazis.

Still have not heard a Christian answer as to why they fel enjoined to go ut and impose on others trolling for converts.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Still have not heard a Christian answer as to why they fel enjoined to go ut and impose on others trolling for converts.

Maybe it is because the majority of us don't.

There are those on both the atheist and Christian sides who are hard core zealots - but in neither case do they actually fairly represent the overall stance of their groups. I want nothing to do with either atheists or Christians who are determined to convert everyone to their particular worldview. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their aggression and hypocrisy and I see no difference in them and the evangelical zealots you have encountered.

Ruth

 

[Keith&Co.]

But I fully agree with Keith&Co that atheism doesn't "power your life". It disempowers you.
It reduces your carbon-based, spontaneously occurring, temporary life on this mundane, microscopic spec of dirt called Earth, to (Camusian) absurdity. Atheism = Myth of Sisyphus.

Ah. So you DON'T agree with my sentiments, it's just a talking point to project your own worlview in place of mine.

Asked why he left atheism, he told many of us that the main reason was because atheism was too limiting - it inhibited his free thought. It was boring and pointless. And he felt that we (humans) were innately, inherently, spiritually, full of more potential than what atheism imposes.

Sooooo, he didn't suddenly percieve evidence of one or more gods, he was just disappointed that he wasn't getting what he thought atheism should offer.

Kind of a goofy reason to convert.

I mean, would someone rational begin believing in fairies because flowers and fertilizer aren't enough to make their garden interesting? Because fresh tomatoes aren't fulfilling?

Pfffft.

 

[Rhea]

Still have not heard a Christian answer as to why they fel enjoined to go ut and impose on others trolling for converts.

Maybe it is because the majority of us don't.

If the majority of you don’t, how come we still have religious-based laws being foisted on us? If the majority of Christians, and all of atheists, were on the same page, then we would not have fucking Pence as a VP and DeVos in education and only one abortion provider in all of Texas.

So I call,
The difference between what you say and what you do - is what you do,
On your “majority of christians.”

 

[steve_bank]

Still have not heard a Christian answer as to why they fel enjoined to go ut and impose on others trolling for converts.

Maybe it is because the majority of us don't.

There are those on both the atheist and Christian sides who are hard core zealots - but in neither case do they actually fairly represent the overall stance of their groups. I want nothing to do with either atheists or Christians who are determined to convert everyone to their particular worldview. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their aggression and hypocrisy and I see no difference in them and the evangelical zealots you have encountered.

Ruth

The RCC and the pope are a glaring example. Baptists and evangelicals especially. Come into work and find pamphlets on your desk.

Conservatives ploticians incessnt invocation of god. Perenial pressure to make prayer and the bible part of public education.

I grew up with Blue Laws in Ct, leftover from earlier times. All New England had them. One was no businessa few on Sunday. All but small stores closed.

The RCC still maintains it assertion it is the sole moral authority over humanity delegated by god. The disgusting abuse cover up. Catholic politicians have been threated with loss of sacreents for not voting Vatican policy, no small threat in the fasith.

Catholics are about 25% of population.

I could go on. As I am posting from a library computer in my rehab facility I am listening to a bible meeting in a nearby room. Loud rage and anger from the preacher against the non believers. Thank god, as a figure of speech, for the constitution that shields us.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Still have not heard a Christian answer as to why they fel enjoined to go ut and impose on others trolling for converts.

Maybe it is because the majority of us don't.

If the majority of you don’t, how come we still have religious-based laws being foisted on us? If the majority of Christians, and all of atheists, were on the same page, then we would not have fucking Pence as a VP and DeVos in education and only one abortion provider in all of Texas.

So I call,
The difference between what you say and what you do - is what you do,
On your “majority of christians.”

I understand your anger - but what I was addressing was his statement that Christians "go out and troll for converts". The vast majority of us don't.

And I didn't vote for Trump or Pence. Don't like Betsy DeVos either. Not a supporter of "civil religion". Unfortunately, many Christians (among others including atheists too from my understanding) were convinced by the radical right that if they didn't vote for Trump they would lose all their rights. But there are still many of us who saw through the deceptions and didn't support the current occupants of the White House. Please don't tar all of us with the same brush.

Ruth

 

[Learner]

If the majority of you don’t, how come we still have religious-based laws being foisted on us? If the majority of Christians, and all of atheists, were on the same page, then we would not have fucking Pence as a VP and DeVos in education and only one abortion provider in all of Texas.


So I call,
The difference between what you say and what you do - is what you do,
On your “majority of christians.”

The majority of Christians do not reside in the US. So I guess its not really a Christian majority in that sense e.g. since its Texas and over there.

Just mentioning the obvious , as this gives the wrong (trump-like ) impression of Christianity (you are depicting individuals) so to speak , rather than the Christianity; as according to Jesus in the bible . Perhaps thats the intention (I dare say) but I know what you're getting at

 

[Jobar]

...atheism doesn't "power your life". It disempowers you.

It depends on how you define yourself.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwDNXgrNECw[/YOUTUBE]

It's quite possible to realize that each of us is a crest of the wave of the Big Bang, in and of ourselves. No god(s) needed. I can think of nothing more empowering. I do not have to fear. I do not have to bow down. I do not have to look away. In the realest sense, I myself am the universe, coming on as an individual human being.

 

[Learner]

It's quite possible to realize that each of us is a crest of the wave of the Big Bang, in and of ourselves. No god(s) needed. I can think of nothing more empowering. I do not have to fear. I do not have to bow down. I do not have to look away. In the realest sense, I myself am the universe, coming on as an individual human being.

Philosophy is wonderful thing and I used to be a great fan of Watts. Does the notion of : "No God needed" become real because we finally know the secrets of the cosmos? I'd like a little more detail please!

To be fair ...philosophy is on all sides.

 

[Ruth Harris]

The RCC and the pope are a glaring example. Baptists and evangelicals especially. Come into work and find pamphlets on your desk.

I hate tracts. They are nothing but a waste of good paper. I have made my opinion known in particular to one fellow church member who left those atrocious "money tracts" for waitresses. This is nothing but an insult to someone who works very hard to make a living.

Also not a fan of the Catholic Church. I do not believe in papal infallibility on matters of faith. And I am a Baptist - and believe it or not, there are still large numbers of Baptists who think the Catholic Church is the "harlot" of Revelation. I wouldn't go that far, but still don't have a real high opinion of their faith.

Conservatives ploticians incessnt invocation of god. Perenial pressure to make prayer and the bible part of public education.

I grew up with Blue Laws in Ct, leftover from earlier times. All New England had them. One was no businessa few on Sunday. All but small stores closed.

As I stated in my reply to Rhea, I am not a fan of civil religion - and politicians will use anything to make themselves look good whether or not they actually believe it. I grew up with those same blue laws here in the midwest.

The RCC still maintains it assertion it is the sole moral authority over humanity delegated by god. The disgusting abuse cover up. Catholic politicians have been threated with loss of sacreents for not voting Vatican policy, no small threat in the fasith.

Catholics are about 25% of population.

And a very large percentage of them vote exactly how their priest tells them to vote. That is a real disgrace. But I have to say - Catholics are not the only ones who have an issue with abuse. They just got caught. It happens in every denomination, including mine.

I could go on. As I am posting from a library computer in my rehab facility I am listening to a bible meeting in a nearby room. Loud rage and anger from the preacher against the non believers. Thank god, as a figure of speech, for the constitution that shields us.

Okay, if it is none of my business just say so - but what on earth kind of rehab facility are you in? I have never known of a reputable secular facility that allowed aggressive bible thumpers. Your user information says you are in Seattle - and I am really amazed that you would have that in the Northwest as it is considered one of the most secular areas of the US.

Ruth

 

[Tigers!]

How the fuck does atheism power your life?

In much the same way that steve_bank noted that atheism powers some lives.
It is why you exist. You think of it all day long.

 

[Keith&Co.]

How the fuck does atheism power your life?

In much the same way that steve_bank noted that atheism powers some lives.
It is why you exist. You think of it all day long.

You're using a generic sort of third-person 'you,' i think? Because i spend far more time thinking of how to make my manager regret coming into our office than i do 'my atheism.'
After that, the head-up-ass driving skills of the Berkshire motorist.
Fantasies about Trump's yacht sinking just after i have cornered the world market on life vests....

 

[Tigers!]

So, the question is what drives Christians to evangelize, convert, and look down on others?

Because we do not wish others to be condemned to the fires of hell (to coin a phrase).
WE have, we believe, been saved and wish to experience what we have experienced.

 

[Angry Floof]

So, the question is what drives Christians to evangelize, convert, and look down on others?

Because we do not wish others to be condemned to the fires of hell (to coin a phrase).
WE have, we believe, been saved and wish to experience what we have experienced.

Well, that's the narrative anyway. Target the sick and poor when the goal is not so much altruism as to spread the group identity.

Growth for the sake of growth, the ideology of cancer.

 

[Keith&Co.]

How the fuck does atheism power your life?

In much the same way that steve_bank noted that atheism powers some lives.
It is why you exist. You think of it all day long.

And still, atheism is a lack of belief in a deity. That's all.

HOW would it power a life?

It doesn'tprovide, fir example, a moral code, though it does allow one to picktheir morals without pretending it's from a scripture.
Atheism isn't an emotion, although emotions might have led them to atheism...

I still can't see HOW atheism could power anything.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I still can't see HOW atheism could power anything.

Maybe it's like zero-point energy where quantum fluctuations in nothingness generate electricity.

Perhaps a Christian could explain how their lack of belief in Ra powers their life, because that would likely be similar to how our lack of belief in their god powers ours.

 

[steve_bank]

So, the question is what drives Christians to evangelize, convert, and look down on others?

Because we do not wish others to be condemned to the fires of hell (to coin a phrase).
WE have, we believe, been saved and wish to experience what we have experienced.

At long last simple and direct. I do respect that. If it improves your life good for you.

As the saying goes, your right to extend your elbow ends at my nose. I respect your faith as long as you respect my abscence of faith and do not assume a right to coerce me in any way or discriminate against ne for having no faith, I call it mutially asssured survival, live and let live.

 

[Jobar]

It's quite possible to realize that each of us is a crest of the wave of the Big Bang, in and of ourselves. No god(s) needed. I can think of nothing more empowering. I do not have to fear. I do not have to bow down. I do not have to look away. In the realest sense, I myself am the universe, coming on as an individual human being.

Philosophy is wonderful thing and I used to be a great fan of Watts. Does the notion of : "No God needed" become real because we finally know the secrets of the cosmos? I'd like a little more detail please!

To be fair ...philosophy is on all sides.

Be careful what you ask for, Learner. I've been posting on the subject of atheism/pantheism ever since the internet has existed!

To start you off- back in 2010, I took part in a 3-sided debate: The compatibility of pantheism to atheism and theism, with BWE and Politesse, who still posts here sometimes. Try reading my opening post there. If you're interested, and still want to know more- ask and it shall be given.

 

[Rhea]

So, the question is what drives Christians to evangelize, convert, and look down on others?

Because we do not wish others to be condemned to the fires of hell (to coin a phrase).
WE have, we believe, been saved and wish to experience what we have experienced.

So can you explain how that translates into religious laws and creepy propaganda and rote recitations intended to brainwash children?

And why do you never figure out that we've heard it five thousand times before and you have nothing new to say and your story wasn't convincing five thousand times ago and it's not now and there's no one left who hasn't already heard the story and you can stop trying to share your story now, please, it's become irritating to others like poison ivy?

And also the fact that you believe in the fires of hell makes you a very creepy person who has sick thoughts and should probably not be trusted with children. (You have, you believe, been saved from torturous fires by the being who created the torturous fires whom you claim to love. creeeeepy!)