For Christians:If god exists why must you prove it?

[abaddon]

Be careful what you ask for, Learner. I've been posting on the subject of atheism/pantheism ever since the internet has existed!

To start you off- back in 2010, I took part in a 3-sided debate: The compatibility of pantheism to atheism and theism, with BWE and Politesse, who still posts here sometimes. Try reading my opening post there. If you're interested, and still want to know more- ask and it shall be given.

Learner asked for philosophy, suggesting he wanted a reasoned-out answer. So reasons for the declaration "No god(s) needed" is what was asked for. Which is a fair request.
How is a further declaration, that pantheism is compatible with atheism, a reasoned-out answer to that question?
You're apparently saying you have a different god that isn't his God, thus making the Christian God not necessary to anyone.
Leading me to wonder how in the world that illustrates that "no god(s) are needed".

-----------------------------

Why is God not needed?
I'd say because "God" answers no question.
Also "God" adds no meaning to any life -- people adopt beliefs in order to feel meaningful, and then say that's God "giving" them meaning.
"God" describes only a fantastical being.

So, with God dispensed, why is pantheism needed?

Pantheism is a theism. No qualifying rationalization changes what the word is. It springs from the notion that any act or feeling of reverence for some holism or other -- "Nature" or Consciousness or "All That Is" -- is a religious act.

Pantheists want to be clear their god is not an anthropomorphic god. Some go on to say their object of veneration is not a god at all. But then isn't "pantheist" a confused choice of label for such persons?

If there's a group who identify with each other's beliefs closely, but those beliefs do not include "god(s)", then surely there are other labels than one that means "all is God"?

It's just the old prejudice that religion is where the most special and meaningful of life's experiences reside showing up in yet another way.

 

[steve_bank]

You can restart the thread on pantheism. To me it is all self serving covoluted belief systems.

In an interview with the Dali Lama he was asked about westerners especially prominent ones who take on Buddhism. He relied why not practice the one you already have?

For us non believers I'd say it is all the same. The only difference is the relative social harm of different belief systems. Mono or poly theist are variations on a theme.

Ritual is fine as social function.

Shinto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

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You want to save us from hell, we want to save you from ignorance.

 

[DBT]

So, the question is what drives Christians to evangelize, convert, and look down on others?

Because we do not wish others to be condemned to the fires of hell (to coin a phrase).
WE have, we believe, been saved and wish to experience what we have experienced.

Why would a God - if reasonable - condemn anyone to hell for the mere condition of a lack of belief?

 

[Tigers!]

So, the question is what drives Christians to evangelize, convert, and look down on others?

Because we do not wish others to be condemned to the fires of hell (to coin a phrase).
WE have, we believe, been saved and wish to experience what we have experienced.

Why would a God - if reasonable - condemn anyone to hell for the mere condition of a lack of belief?

If it were predicated on mere lack of benefit you would be correct.

 

[Tigers!]

You can restart the thread on pantheism. To me it is all self serving covoluted belief systems.

In an interview with the Dali Lama he was asked about westerners especially prominent ones who take on Buddhism. He relied why not practice the one you already have?

For us non believers I'd say it is all the same. The only difference is the relative social harm of different belief systems. Mono or poly theist are variations on a theme.

Ritual is fine as social function.

Shinto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

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You want to save us from hell, we want to save you from ignorance.

we both wish to save the other.

 

[Tigers!]

And why do you never figure out that we've heard it five thousand times before and you have nothing new to say and your story wasn't convincing five thousand times ago and it's not now and there's no one left who hasn't already heard the story and you can stop trying to share your story now, please, it's become irritating to others like poison ivy?

I feel precisely the same way when atheists tell me for the 5 thousandth time that God does not exist. It does get tiresome.

 

[Juma]

Why would a God - if reasonable - condemn anyone to hell for the mere condition of a lack of belief?

If it were predicated on mere lack of benefit you would be correct.

so you mean bible.org is wrong?
https://bible.org/question/what-happens-unbelievers-between-death-and-being-cast-hell

 

[DBT]

Why would a God - if reasonable - condemn anyone to hell for the mere condition of a lack of belief?

If it were predicated on mere lack of benefit you would be correct.

It is implied in your remark in response to the question of why Christians want to 'evangelize, convert.' Which was - ''Because we do not wish others to be condemned to the fires of hell (to coin a phrase).''

 

[Juma]

And why do you never figure out that we've heard it five thousand times before and you have nothing new to say and your story wasn't convincing five thousand times ago and it's not now and there's no one left who hasn't already heard the story and you can stop trying to share your story now, please, it's become irritating to others like poison ivy?

I feel precisely the same way when atheists tell me for the 5 thousandth time that God does not exist. It does get tiresome.

for the fucks sake where are your evidens? there are none. you believe in a ironage myth. why?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And why do you never figure out that we've heard it five thousand times before and you have nothing new to say and your story wasn't convincing five thousand times ago and it's not now and there's no one left who hasn't already heard the story and you can stop trying to share your story now, please, it's become irritating to others like poison ivy?

I feel precisely the same way when atheists tell me for the 5 thousandth time that God does not exist. It does get tiresome.

Then stop trying to tell us he's real. If you ignore him, we'll ignore him too and he'll enter the conversation as much as leprechauns do.

 

[Jobar]

Learner asked for philosophy, suggesting he wanted a reasoned-out answer. So reasons for the declaration "No god(s) needed" is what was asked for. Which is a fair request.
How is a further declaration, that pantheism is compatible with atheism, a reasoned-out answer to that question?
You're apparently saying you have a different god that isn't his God, thus making the Christian God not necessary to anyone.
Leading me to wonder how in the world that illustrates that "no god(s) are needed".

Abaddon, there are multiple lines of reasoning in that debate I linked to, which both answer Learner's question, and refute Lion's assertion that atheism is 'disempowering'. There's also more than one demonstration that pantheism is *not* a form of theism- that it has no god, or need thereof.

I know it's rather long, so I didn't expect everyone to go read it. But let me offer two short quotes to illustrate my point; there are a number of others in there if you want to go read the whole thing.

Pantheism
(From Greek pan, all; theos, god).
The view according to which God and the world are one. The name pantheist was introduced by John Toland (1670-1722) in his "Socinianism truly Stated" (1705), while pantheism was first used by his opponent Fay in "Defensio Religionis" (1709). Toland published his "Pantheisticon" in 1732. The doctrine itself goes back to the early Indian philosophy; it appears during the course of history in a great variety of forms, and it enters into or draws support from so many other systems that, as Professor Flint says ("Antitheistic Theories", 334), "there is probably no pure pantheism". Taken in the strictest sense, i.e. as identifying God and the world, Pantheism is simply Atheism. In any of its forms it involves Monism, but the latter is not necessarily pantheistic. ...

Here's another way of thinking of this. If I say "everything is a miracle", then what have I said about *anything*? I have provided no way to define the word "miracle" so that we can understand it apart from any other word or concept. Likewise, if I say "everything is God", it contains just as much meaning as if I say "nothing is God"!

There is a "school" of atheist thought called non-cognitivism, or igtheism- "the word "god" is meaningless, conveys no information." It appears to me that this POV is in agreement with pantheism; such beliefs as Taoism and Zen Buddhism speak of "emptiness" and "suchness" and "the Tao which can be named is not the ultimate Tao." In a very real sense, pantheism declares that the word 'god' is meaningless, in that there is no God apart from the totality of existence.

 

[Rhea]

And why do you never figure out that we've heard it five thousand times before and you have nothing new to say and your story wasn't convincing five thousand times ago and it's not now and there's no one left who hasn't already heard the story and you can stop trying to share your story now, please, it's become irritating to others like poison ivy?

I feel precisely the same way when atheists tell me for the 5 thousandth time that God does not exist. It does get tiresome.

Bullshit. Lying is a sin, Tiger.
Atheists do not go door to door with pamphlets. Atheists do not hang out in train stations. Atheists do not make millions of children say a pledge in public every day. Atheists do not put up 100-foot statues to a murder weapon on highways. Atheists do not buy thousands of billboards. Atheists do not put up signs in courtrooms. Atheists do not put books in hotel rooms. Atheists do not put signs outside of churches with goofy and insulting sayings. Atheists do not run nationwide clubs and refuse entry to any young boy who refuses to sign a statement saying “there is no god.” Atheists do not pass laws that say “you have to buy alcohol on Sundays”. Atheists do not protest funerals with hateful signs.

Just - bullshit.
You do not “feel the same way,” because atheists do not do that crap. And you know it.

 

[Jobar]

To further bolster my reputation as an Archivist, let me link to the 2017 thread Why does the existence or non-existence of God matter?, 1000+ posts of discussion very closely paralleling this topic. Much of it is addressed to 1ICrying, a fairly generic Christian that had come to testify to us atheists, who was well spoken and polite. I had hoped 1I was going to show up here, but AFAIK he hasn't.

 

[steve_bank]

You can restart the thread on pantheism. To me it is all self serving covoluted belief systems.

In an interview with the Dali Lama he was asked about westerners especially prominent ones who take on Buddhism. He relied why not practice the one you already have?

For us non believers I'd say it is all the same. The only difference is the relative social harm of different belief systems. Mono or poly theist are variations on a theme.

Ritual is fine as social function.

Shinto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

- - - Updated - - -

You want to save us from hell, we want to save you from ignorance.

we both wish to save the other.

I was staying we view religion as ignorance, Ignorance is bliss. As someone posted atheists do not hand out pamphlys and invite thetis to meetings for the purpose of deconverting.

I am generalizing, I'd say most of us do not care what you believe as long as you leave us out of it. Christians must prove existence of gad to us to validate their own faith.

Getting someone to believe your faith validates and reinforces your faith. If you have no doubts in existence of god, then your faith should stand alone. And that is the true value of religion. removing doubts and uncertainties of life. True faith should be unwavering and unassailable regardless of what I think.

 

[steve_bank]

And why do you never figure out that we've heard it five thousand times before and you have nothing new to say and your story wasn't convincing five thousand times ago and it's not now and there's no one left who hasn't already heard the story and you can stop trying to share your story now, please, it's become irritating to others like poison ivy?

I feel precisely the same way when atheists tell me for the 5 thousandth time that God does not exist. It does get tiresome.

What is tiresome is hearing natural disasters are god's wrath. What is tiresome and scary is hearing mebers of Congress praying for guidance and intercession unable to apparently get anything done. And so on.

We are faced with it 124/7. Faith in god has become a substitute for competence, and that I have seen personally.

 

[Lion IRC]

And why do you never figure out that we've heard it five thousand times before and you have nothing new to say and your story wasn't convincing five thousand times ago and it's not now and there's no one left who hasn't already heard the story and you can stop trying to share your story now, please, it's become irritating to others like poison ivy?

I feel precisely the same way when atheists tell me for the 5 thousandth time that God does not exist. It does get tiresome.

Atheists do not go door to door with pamphlets. Atheists do not hang out in train stations. Atheists do not make millions of children say a pledge in public every day. Atheists do not put up 100-foot statues to a murder weapon on highways. Atheists do not buy thousands of billboards. Atheists do not put up signs in courtrooms. Atheists do not put books in hotel rooms. Atheists do not put signs outside of churches with goofy and insulting sayings. Atheists do not run nationwide clubs and refuse entry to any young boy who refuses to sign a statement saying “there is no god.” Atheists do not pass laws that say “you have to buy alcohol on Sundays”. Atheists do not protest funerals with hateful signs.

...plenty more where they cam from.

 

[Juma]

Atheists do not go door to door with pamphlets. Atheists do not hang out in train stations. Atheists do not make millions of children say a pledge in public every day. Atheists do not put up 100-foot statues to a murder weapon on highways. Atheists do not buy thousands of billboards. Atheists do not put up signs in courtrooms. Atheists do not put books in hotel rooms. Atheists do not put signs outside of churches with goofy and insulting sayings. Atheists do not run nationwide clubs and refuse entry to any young boy who refuses to sign a statement saying “there is no god.” Atheists do not pass laws that say “you have to buy alcohol on Sundays”. Atheists do not protest funerals with hateful signs.

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...plenty more where they cam from.

Plenty? You gave 3 examples when you know there are thousands and thousands of theistic propaganda out there...
Lying for christ again?

 

[Rhea]

Atheists do not go door to door with pamphlets. Atheists do not hang out in train stations. Atheists do not make millions of children say a pledge in public every day. Atheists do not put up 100-foot statues to a murder weapon on highways. Atheists do not buy thousands of billboards. Atheists do not put up signs in courtrooms. Atheists do not put books in hotel rooms. Atheists do not put signs outside of churches with goofy and insulting sayings. Atheists do not run nationwide clubs and refuse entry to any young boy who refuses to sign a statement saying “there is no god.” Atheists do not pass laws that say “you have to buy alcohol on Sundays”. Atheists do not protest funerals with hateful signs.

[picture of a sign that says there is "probably" no god]

[picture of a sign that says if you don't believe in God, you're not alone]

[picture of a sign that says churches are fake news]

...plenty more where they cam from.

So are you seriously saying that 3 - or even 100 billboards letting people know that there are also non-theists around is somehow equivalent to all of the things I listed? That they even hold a candle to the filthy forced introduction of "god" to a pledge recited by schoolchildren every morning plus everything else I mentioned and is somehow a rebuttal? You may fool yourself, but you don't fool me.


You remind me of my kids when I say, "do your chores! Do all of them! There is dirt on the carpet and dishes in the sink and someone left the milk out and the laundry is still in the washer and the car door is open!" and they say, "I didn't have any milk" and they keep reading. You're like that.

And you know it.

 

[Lion IRC]

I'll admit that Christian proselytising quantitavely outdoes the atheist version.
But....
a) There are a LOT more Christians than atheists
b) According to you there shouldn't be ANY billboards promoting atheism non-stamp collecting

 

[DBT]

Which came first, the theist seeking converts or the atheist rejecting doctrine?