Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

[Toni]

I know some folks will think the preliminary autopsy findings "prove" that the kneeling on Floyd's neck didn't cause his death, that he died of underlying health conditions. But it doesn't, not unless those conditions would have been fatal right then and there

If he was tased or restrained in a more textbook fashion, he probably still would have died, because what killed him wasn't an airway restriction (as claimed in the thread title) or positional asphyxia, but rather his own poor health and agitation from getting arrested and restrained. Possibly exacerbated by alcohol or drug intoxication, as the 911 caller described him as being under the influence of something.

Any competent lawyer should be able to make Swiss cheese out of the prosecution case unless some other damning evidence comes to light.

The video is very damning.

Mr. Floyd expresses medical distress, repeatedly. Police officers are TRAINED to release such a hold and to allow the suspect to sit up or roll over and to assist them if they need such assistance.

Just as being tased would have easily resulted in Mr. Floyd having a heart attack, so did being held for nearly 8 minutes in a position KNOWN TO BE INHERENTLY DANGEROUS and not allowed because it is INHERENTLY DANGEROUS and has been known to lead to death.

Police officers are not medical providers and they are not expected to be familiar with any suspect's medical history. For that reason, they must exercise all due caution and care when taking a suspect into custody.

Who says that Mr. Floyd resisted arrest and resisted getting into the squad car? The police officers fired and charged in this case? There are multiple videos of Mr. Floyd's arrest, being walked across the street to the patrol car and being held on the ground with Chauvin's knee and full body weight placed on his neck. NONE show him resisting arrest.

 

[Toni]

Colin Kaepernick is supporting Minneapolis looters, rioters and arsonists so much, he is offering to pay off their legal bills.

Colin Kaepernick Offers to Pay for Lawyers for People Protesting in Minneapolis

This guy has always been an anti-police extremist. I have no idea why so many people like him.

Did you read the full article you linked? I can't read it all without subscribing. Does it say anything about looters, rioters and arsonists?

The opening sentence indicates the fund is for people engaged in protests against police brutality.

The new Know Your Rights Camp Legal Defense Initiative will pay for legal assistance for people protesting in the Minneapolis area, its website said.

Given Kaepernick's well known stance on that issue, are you actually surprised he'd be supportive of them and their cause? Or are you just counter-protesting?

Here is the article in the link:

Colin Kaepernick Offers to Pay for Lawyers for People Protesting in Minneapolis
The quarterback-turned-activist, who took a knee during the national anthem to protest police brutality, has started an initiative to defend people protesting following the death of George Floyd

Colin Kaepernick during a training session in Nov. 2019.
PHOTO: ELIJAH NOUVELAGE/REUTERS
By Andrew Beaton
May 29, 2020 1:02 pm ET
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TEXT
Colin Kaepernick has launched a fund to hire top defense lawyers for people arrested protesting police brutality in Minneapolis, the center of protests after George Floyd’s death there.

The new Know Your Rights Camp Legal Defense Initiative will pay for legal assistance for people protesting in the Minneapolis area, its website said. Kaepernick’s charitable arm, Know Your Rights Camp, is paying for the project.

Kaepernick last played in the National Football League in 2016, the year he began protesting racial injustices such as police brutality by taking a knee during the national anthem. Those demonstrations evolved into a national controversy, with advocates hailing the peaceful protests and detractors, including President Trump, assailing them as unpatriotic.

The symbolism of Kaepernick taking a knee has been especially salient in the wake of Floyd’s death. Four Minneapolis police officers were fired after they apprehended Floyd, with one of them pressing his knee into Floyd’s neck until he appeared to pass out. A video of Floyd’s death drew national outrage amid a revitalized spotlight on the killing of unarmed black men, including the death in Georgia of Ahmaud Arbery.

Kaepernick has continued to call attention to these issues and started the Know Your Rights Camp, which hosts events around the country to educate young minorities about various topics and issues such as their rights during encounters with police officers.

In a grievance against the NFL, Kaepernick argued he was effectively blackballed by the league and its 32 teams because of his outspoken political views, a charge the league denied. Kaepernick rose to prominence as the quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, who he took to the Super Bowl and an NFC Championship game.


The grievance was eventually settled, but the movement he catalyzed continued to roil the league even as he remained a free agent. The protests pitted the country’s most popular sport in a feud with some fans and politicians including the president, who said the NFL and its owners should put a stop to it.

Last year, the NFL attempted to organize a workout for Kaepernick to showcase his skills in front of scouts after he and his representatives continued to point out that no team had offered him even a basic tryout during his unemployment.

But just before the workout was set to begin, it fell apart when the parties couldn’t agree on the terms of the event, including a legal waiver that Kaepernick’s team felt could more broadly sign away his right to legal recourse against the league.

Instead, Kaepernick held his own workout and in rare public comments reiterated that he has been staying ready to play for the last three years while he has remained unsigned.

Note: Derec is unable to distinguish between protesters and looters, rioters and arsonists.

 

[DBT]

Even had he resisted initially, continuing to press down on his neck while he was subdued on the ground is not reasonable or acceptable.

 

[J842P]

Even had he resisted initially, continuing to press down on his neck while he was subdued on the ground is not acceptable.

This is the crux of the matter. It's amazing the mental gymnastics and boot-licking apologia that go towards trying to defend these actions.

 

[Deepak]

Reaching pretty far back in the thread, but I'm not going to let this pass. People don't breath spherical cows through idealized tubes.

Especially spherical cows in vacuum.

Your unsupported assertion is wrong, not supported by any medical literature, and even American police forces (which were dragged kicking and screaming) finally accepted its wrongness.

Do you have any evidence for your claim that Loren's assertion about unidirectional airway blockage is wrong?

Can you back that up?


"Jim Crow" is a southern thing. MA is very far north.

- because that's how fascists use language.

Sure Jan. Everybody who disagrees with you is a "fascist" ...

I didn't call you a fascist. Believe me, I wouldn't give you the credit for having any original thoughts. You're understanding what I'm saying there the wrong way, My point is the formulation - specifically to say 'what about some group X' when their intention is not to help group X but to use group X to attack their opponent shows provenance because that is the thing that the fascists did. Somehow in a comment that wasn't directed at you - you found yourself compelled to intervene on behalf of the fascists. Is that you're actually sticking up for the fascists or are you just so used to getting the reaction?

My offer to step on your neck is my evidence. There's no shortage of evidence for the claim I made, but the need to provide evidence for 'if you can talk, you can breathe' should be to the people who make that claim. Show us the source for this claim that if he talked within X minutes of being limply rolled onto a bed as a dead man that he could breathe.

 

[DBT]

Even had he resisted initially, continuing to press down on his neck while he was subdued on the ground is not acceptable.

This is the crux of the matter. It's amazing the mental gymnastics and boot-licking apologia that go towards trying to defend these actions.

If we were to do it in the course of self defence we would be charged for using excessive force.

 

[lpetrich]

Shimon Prokupecz on Twitter: "Important from autopsy: The combined effect of George Floyd being restrained by the police, along with his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death, according to the criminal complaint." / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "If you killed a man w/ health conditions, you still killed a man.
George Floyd couldn’t breathe. 3 officers held him down, & one w/ a recorded, violent history kneed his neck as others helped.
They waited 9 minutes for his last breath. This was not an accident. It was murder." / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Police brutality + targeting Black communities: unjust
100k+ COVID deaths w/ disproportionate Black impact: needless 40+ million unemployed: unnecessary
Poverty: unnecessary Homelessness: unnecessary
Low wages: unnecessary
None of this has to happen.
A new way is possible." / Twitter

I'm concerned that the cop's lawyers will think of some Just So Story that gets him off the hook, like what happened with Rodney King. Like how the cops were gently tapping RK with their truncheons. That was a horrible beating with several cops standing around -- it wasn't like the cops were in any danger from RK.

 

[TSwizzle]

Even had he resisted initially, continuing to press down on his neck while he was subdued on the ground is not acceptable.

This is the crux of the matter. It's amazing the mental gymnastics and boot-licking apologia that go towards trying to defend these actions.

It’s part of it but it’s not really the crux of the matter. Chauvin has been charged with murder I believe. Before a cause of death has been established mind you. A bit of putting the cart before the horse there I think. So the crux of the matter becomes if a murder can be proven.

 

[Toni]

Even had he resisted initially, continuing to press down on his neck while he was subdued on the ground is not acceptable.

This is the crux of the matter. It's amazing the mental gymnastics and boot-licking apologia that go towards trying to defend these actions.

It’s part of it but it’s not really the crux of the matter. Chauvin has been charged with murder I believe. Before a cause of death has been established mind you. A bit of putting the cart before the horse there I think. So the crux of the matter becomes if a murder can be proven.

Chauvin has been charged with third degree murder and manslaughter.

 

[DBT]

It's clearly a case of excessive force.

 

[TSwizzle]

It's clearly a case of excessive force.

I agree with that, that’s the very least. But without a cause of death it’s a bit premature to call it murder.

 

[lpetrich]

Jamaal Bowman on Twitter: "This is law enforcement.
They’re supposed to protect us, not kill us. (video link)" / Twitter
Great statement from him.

BTW, he's running for office in NY-16, against 16-term incumbent and House Foreign Affairs head Eliot Engel.

 

[Toni]

It's clearly a case of excessive force.

It is and and clearly a case of an officer using a technique that officers were not supppsed to use because of its known danger.

Preliminary autopsy results indicate that Mr. Floyd had underlying cardiovascular issues. This is one reason that such techniques are not allowed: suspects may have underlying medical conditions that could lead to death.

But so what? If I have a heart condition and you beat the shit out of me and I have a fatal heart attack, during the beating, it’s still a crime! Medically fragile people can still be murdered! You don’t get a fee pass at someone with a medical condition!

Of course everyone here thinks that something like this could never happen to them because we are not criminals. But we don’t know that Mr. Floyd passed a bad bill in the first place, or if he knew that he did. Even so, it was a nonviolent crime. What if Mr. Floyd was not the person who passed the bad bill?

Some years ago, when we lived in another part of the country, my husband was exiting a shoe repair shop when he was confronted by several police officers whose weapons were pointed straight at him, thrown against the side of the building and patted down—before they realized they had the wrong man. It seems my husband bore a slight resemblance to someone suspected of killing an on-duty police officer. Fortunately they got clarification before it went any further than as scaring the living shit out of my husband. First thing we both said when he told me was: Thank God he wasn't aren’t black. He would have been a dead man for sure. The police in that area had a reputation for shooting suspects first and then verifying identity later.

This is why there are demonstrations. This shit has been going on for decades and decades.

 

[Derec]

So #BLM idiots are rioting in Atlanta now too, burning police cars etc. Since Atlanta PD and Keisha Lance Bottoms are either unwilling or unable to stop this rioting, Brian Kemp should send the National Guard in to restore order. Giving those who wish to destroy space to do that is a losing proposition!

Btw, CNN has been feeding this monster for years with their biased reporting, and it seems the monster is turning on them.

Now those maniacs have set a fire to a building somewhere downtown. SEND IN THE NATIONAL GUARD ALREADY!

 

[Derec]

Jamaal Bowman on Twitter: "This is law enforcement.
They’re supposed to protect us, not kill us. (video link)" / Twitter
Great statement from him.

Rather simplistic actually. Your chance to get killed by police is very low anyway, and much lower if you don't do stupid shit like pulling a gun (most people shot by police have been armed).
The Floyd thing was a fluke. It is not a typical police killing by any measure.

BTW, he's running for office in NY-16, against 16-term incumbent and House Foreign Affairs head Eliot Engel.

Kind of like AOC, eh?

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Has one of the rwnj's here pointed out that he was no angel yet or is that implied in the thread title?

 

[Arctish]

Jamaal Bowman on Twitter: "This is law enforcement.
They’re supposed to protect us, not kill us. (video link)" / Twitter
Great statement from him.

Rather simplistic actually. Your chance to get killed by police is very low anyway, and much lower if you don't do stupid shit like pulling a gun (most people shot by police have been armed).
The Floyd thing was a fluke. It is not a typical police killing by any measure.

The last couple of times you and I discussed similar demonstrations it was clearly shown that what people were upset about went far beyond the occasional 'fluke' or the police killing someone doing 'stupid shit'. People were protesting a pattern of police misconduct and use of excessive force, as well as official complicity, cover-ups, and indifference.

What do you want to bet that if I go looking into the recent history of the Minneapolis Police Department I will find incidents just as appalling as those perpetrated by those other PDs we've looked at?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

It's clearly a case of excessive force.

I agree with that, that’s the very least. But without a cause of death it’s a bit premature to call it murder.

Second or third degree murder, where you take actions you know are potentially lethal that results in death, even though it isn't your intent to kill.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have long suspected that the black bloc people are actually a right wing shadow group. They seem to have more resources than I would expect, that suggests someone is funding them.

That's not a reason to suspect that they are right-wing. There is a lot of money on the far left. 99% of Hollywood. Billionaires like Tom Steyer and George Soros. Soros in particular is well known for funding left-wing causes.

And who stands to benefit from their actions? (Note that they might not know who their puppet masters are.)

One could apply that line of reasoning to any extremist group. Timothy McVeigh must have been a Leftist puppet. Hezbollah is either run by the Joos or else by Sunnis. Mao was a CIA operative. And so on ...

Crazies can be from anywhere on the spectrum and there's rarely a reason to think there's any sort of false flag. I'm specifically talking about those who fund crazies, though--they are going to act rationally. What does the black bloc accomplish? Nothing appreciable other than muddy the reputation of the left. What benefit would Soros gain from funding them? Koch, however, would benefit. What makes the most sense?

 

[Derec]

The last couple of times you and I discussed similar demonstrations it was clearly shown that what people were upset about went far beyond the occasional 'fluke' or the police killing someone doing 'stupid shit'. People were upset over a pattern of police misconduct and use of excessive force, as well as official complicity, cover-ups, and indifference.

But true cases of police misconduct are relatively rare, especially fatal ones.
Most of the cases #BLM rioted over were justified. That's why they resort to lies such as "it was a book" or "hands up don't shoot".

What do you want to bet that if I go looking into the recent history of the Minneapolis Police Department I will find incidents just as appalling as those perpetrated by those other PDs we've looked at?

Like what for example?

By the way, the animals loose in Atlanta have set a Starbucks on fire. We need reinforcements!