Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

[DBT]

Heard the Mayor on an interview saying the officers who pushed the 75yo to the ground are not trained to deal with medical emergencies, that there was a medical station a short distance away. With such excuses, it just gets worse with every incident.

 

[Arctish]

I'm just speculating here, but I wonder if the 57 officers who resigned did so because they felt that upper echelons had put them in a completely untenable position and then threw them under the bus.

If they were given orders to 'take back' the streets in a certain manner, a manner in which they'd been trained, and that's exactly what they did, then those two officers shouldn't have been hung out to dry. Placed on paid leave or assigned to desk duty while the incident is investigated, sure. Given a formal reprimand or fired if they violated orders or deviated from standard procedures, definitely. But not placed on unpaid leave and be in danger of losing their jobs just for doing their jobs the way they'd been trained to do it.

I'm not saying that's what happened, and I'm not saying I approve of what we all saw in that video. I'm trying to understand why 57 cops would suddenly resign like that. I'm trying to see things from their p.o.v.

If they were trained to follow Plan A, ordered to follow Plan A, and followed Plan A exactly as ordered, then the people who developed and chose to implement Plan A should step up and defend their choices and their officers.

Did you see the video? I believe they were rightly put on unpaid leave. I haven't gone back and watched a third time, but I believe one officer immediately started to check on the gentleman who was on the ground and the other pushed him off. A BUNCH of officers walked right on past a man who had not behaved aggressively, who was laying on the ground, bleeding apparently from his ear (sign of closed head injury, not merely scalp laceration) and...did nothing to stop and give aid. There were no shots fired, no emergency.

But if you are correct, then whoever issued orders such that they were NOT to stop and offer assistance to injured persons, then that person should also be placed on leave and investigated.

I did see the video. It appeared to me that the cop who shoved the man did not intend to harm him. The fall was an accident. And the moment that one cop goes to check on the injured man and the other cops stops him reminded me of something an active duty sailor once said about her training. As I recall, she was being interviewed following an attack on a US Navy ship. She said she was trained to not give immediate assistance to injured crew mates during an emergency but to leave them for the corpsmen. She said it was really difficult to ignore your friends and ship mates but in an emergency she had to carry out her own duties. It's pretty harsh, but it makes sense. And it makes sense that cops on an Emergency Response team would receive similar training. They probably had paramedics standing by, and they were probably doing exactly what they had been trained to do.

I think there's an urgent need to re-orient out police forces away from militarization and back toward serving the needs of the entire community. And there's probably a fair number of bad apples that need to be tossed out of that department. But I don't think the mass resignations are just cops having a hissy fit. I think they feel betrayed, and perhaps they should.

 

[TSwizzle]

So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by

Needlessly is right. What is grampa playing at ?

 

[Arctish]

So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by

Needlessly is right. What is grampa playing at ?

I don't think he was playing.

I think he was quite serious about taking a moral stance on a vitally important social issue, one in which lives hang in the balance.

 

[Shobha]

Yes, that WAS my point !
When people cite crime rates based on race, they make it racist. When it is actually socioeconomic factors.
Blacks are not more violent and crime prone. Poorer people are. Blacks happen to be poorer than the other races.

And the reason there is more crime in the lower socioeconomic strata is not because poor people are evil. Its because they have far fewer options.

It's because they are policed differently. And they do not receive equal treatment at the hands of the police or any of the judicial system.

Exactly. They are suspected more, accused more, convicted more ... so in this case the data is biased in itself. So anyone who cites this flawed statistics is not really proving a point, because the data itself is biased.

 

[TSwizzle]

So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by

Needlessly is right. What is grampa playing at ?

I don't think he was playing.

I think he was quite serious about taking a moral stance on a vitally important social issue, one in which lives hang in the balance.

Silly old fool. A martyr to the cause I suppose. Best leave these things to the young uns.

 

[ZiprHead]

Lawyer says ex-Minneapolis officer Derek Chauvin illegally voted in Florida, asks Aramis Ayala to pursue charges

A man running for election supervisor in Pinellas County is asking Orange-Osceola State Attorney Aramis Ayala pursue charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis ex-cop accused of killing George Floyd, alleging he voted illegally in two Florida elections.

Dan Helm, a Democrat and attorney, sent Orange-Osceola State Attorney Aramis Ayala a letter notifying her of Chauvin’s voting record.

“While living in Minnesota, working there, paying taxes there, Derek Chauvin cannot claim residency in Orange County. His home, residency and where he intends to live is in Minnesota, not Florida,” Helm wrote.

 

[Deepak]

Lawyer says ex-Minneapolis officer Derek Chauvin illegally voted in Florida, asks Aramis Ayala to pursue charges

A man running for election supervisor in Pinellas County is asking Orange-Osceola State Attorney Aramis Ayala pursue charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis ex-cop accused of killing George Floyd, alleging he voted illegally in two Florida elections.

Dan Helm, a Democrat and attorney, sent Orange-Osceola State Attorney Aramis Ayala a letter notifying her of Chauvin’s voting record.

“While living in Minnesota, working there, paying taxes there, Derek Chauvin cannot claim residency in Orange County. His home, residency and where he intends to live is in Minnesota, not Florida,” Helm wrote.

 

[barbos]

Poles, Baltics and Ukrainians were oppressed by Russia.

UKRAINIANS ARE STILL OPPRESSED BY RUSSIA!!!! YOU DID NOT KNOW OPPRESSION IS ON-GOING???!!! There is no point in talking to you!

We have been over this many times. You are both incorrect and projecting.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

FBI arrested two white males from Erie, PA relating to the destruction in the Cleveland riot Sat/Sun.

Saw the Facebook page for one of them. Won’t believe it, but loner/loser. Seems anti-establishment, so an anarchist making with damage. Nothing that I could see regarding white supremacy.

 

[zorq]

I don't think he was playing.

I think he was quite serious about taking a moral stance on a vitally important social issue, one in which lives hang in the balance.

Silly old fool. A martyr to the cause I suppose. Best leave these things to the young uns.

How many people have you assaulted on the street for having the audacity to talk to you. Did you insult them after putting them in the hospital too?

 

[repoman]

Lawyer says ex-Minneapolis officer Derek Chauvin illegally voted in Florida, asks Aramis Ayala to pursue charges

A man running for election supervisor in Pinellas County is asking Orange-Osceola State Attorney Aramis Ayala pursue charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis ex-cop accused of killing George Floyd, alleging he voted illegally in two Florida elections.

Dan Helm, a Democrat and attorney, sent Orange-Osceola State Attorney Aramis Ayala a letter notifying her of Chauvin’s voting record.

“While living in Minnesota, working there, paying taxes there, Derek Chauvin cannot claim residency in Orange County. His home, residency and where he intends to live is in Minnesota, not Florida,” Helm wrote.

This is not going to play well for your side if the books are opened up wide all across the nation.

 

[Arctish]

This is not going to play well for your side if the books are opened up wide all across the nation.

I don't care how well it 'plays' for any side.

I say open up the books, expose the frauds and cheats, and protect the integrity of our elections.

 

[Derec]

Alexis Ohanian Sr. on Twitter: "I've resigned as a member of the reddit board, I have urged them to fill my seat with a black candidate, + I will use future gains on my Reddit stock to serve the black community, chiefly to curb racial hate, and I’m starting with a pledge of $1M to @kaepernick7’s @yourrightscamp" / Twitter

Ohanian just wants to keep his wife happy. She probably told him no pussy unless he does that.

Giving money to Kaep is about the worst thing one could do if the goal is to "curb racial hate" as Kaep is all about stoking it.

 

[TSwizzle]

I don't think he was playing.

I think he was quite serious about taking a moral stance on a vitally important social issue, one in which lives hang in the balance.

Silly old fool. A martyr to the cause I suppose. Best leave these things to the young uns.

How many people have you assaulted on the street for having the audacity to talk to you. Did you insult them after putting them in the hospital too?

A strange question. But the silly old duffer made a bad choice. Play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

 

[Derec]

READ: The Full Statement From Jim Mattis : NPR - it's all there.

I'm a Minneapolis City Council Member. We Must Disband the Police—Here's What Could Come Next | Time
I'm concerned about the Animal Farm effect, as it may be called.

The piece is pretty ridiculous.
Just one excerpt:

In my first two years on the Council, several factors have reinforced the context for reform. Minneapolis Police officers shot and killed four more people—Thurman Blevins, Travis Jordan, Mario Benjamin, and Chiasher Fong Vue—

Notice that Fletcher doesn't care whether these shootings were justified or not.

Bevins shot his gun in the air. When police showed up, he took of running - with the gun - and then pointed said gun at police.

Jodan advanced at officers with a knife in likely suicide by cop.

Benjamin shot a woman and then refused to drop his gun when police showed up.

And Vue was shooting his rifle.


Fletcher just lists those names with the implication that police did wrong shooting those people. He assumes most people would not bother googling those names he dropped.

 

[Derec]

in retrospect how ignorant and unprescient these early posts by Derec look

On the contrary, nothing has changed. It is still true that perps will often feign injury and illness. In fact, I suspect that George Floyd will lead to pretty much every perp yelling "I can't breathe" when getting arrested. And it is still true that talking requires air movement through the trachea, so Floyd could still breathe when he was talking.

Note also his drug use (meth AND fentanyl) combined with a heart condition.

 

[Derec]

I respectfully disagree. Identity politics is okay when it advantages white people which is why Trump or conservatives or their dupes in promote it: they just refuse to admit that it just as much "identity politics" as when nonwhites or women promote it.

Quite the opposite. In our society identity politics is only acceptable when advantaging blacks and hispanics, or women. See so-called "affirmative action" or calls for giving black people free money (so called "reparations"). Both are examples of identity politics.

 

[ruby sparks]

So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by an officer and then subsequently falls back... there is an audible smack with the pavement. He is motionless on the ground. One officer begins to lean down to check him as another officer stops him from doing so. This isn't the bad part.

This is in Buffalo. Two officers were suspended without pay. Their brethren (57 Police Emergency Response Team members) respond by resigning.

Fuck each and every one of those 57 assholes that think such behavior is acceptable. The guy is still in the hospital. Fucking 75 years old. This is supposed to be the time where the police step up, and it seems we are seeing the sociopaths in the police departments step up.

Fuck each and every one of those sociopaths that resigned and each one of those there that didn't even immediately go to the person's aid.

Heck, if the police can't get on board with supporting not shoving elderly people to the ground and then not tending to them immediately after a somewhat sickening fall (listen for that smack!), what chance do minorities have?

And it says that the police initially tried to lie and say he tripped. If that’s true, they must be completely stupid even thinking of trying that. Any fool would have known there were multiple video cameras there, openly filming, and that getting caught lying was obviously just going to make it worse than it already was.

You can see the officer who pushed him realise the magnitude of his mistake straight away.

I'm just speculating here, but I wonder if the 57 officers who resigned did so because they felt that upper echelons had put them in a completely untenable position and then threw them under the bus.

If they were given orders to 'take back' the streets in a certain manner, a manner in which they'd been trained, and that's exactly what they did, then those two officers shouldn't have been hung out to dry. Placed on paid leave or assigned to desk duty while the incident is investigated, sure. Given a formal reprimand or fired if they violated orders or deviated from standard procedures, definitely. But not placed on unpaid leave and be in danger of losing their jobs just for doing their jobs the way they'd been trained to do it.

I'm not saying that's what happened, and I'm not saying I approve of what we all saw in that video. I'm trying to understand why 57 cops would suddenly resign like that. I'm trying to see things from their p.o.v.

If they were trained to follow Plan A, ordered to follow Plan A, and followed Plan A exactly as ordered, then the people who developed and chose to implement Plan A should step up and defend their choices and their officers.

Yeah. I would tend to agree with you in that sort of speculation. Perhaps it will become clearer exactly why they resigned. Perhaps they will make a statement of some sort.

ETA: oh I’m reading what they said now. Yeah. Looks like they are angry at they and their colleagues being personally blamed by superiors when they were merely obeying orders from those superiors.

ETA 2: I agree with what you said in your reply to toni also.

 

[Derec]

Identity politics, as the right has attempted to isolate, is just the next evolution/iteration of public awareness that people have a right to some manner of self-identification and that others are not justified in discrimination on the basis of that identity, insofar as that identity does not itself imply an intent or motive to do harm.

Wrong. It's about demanding special treatment (such as racial or gender preferences in college/grad school admissions and hiring) based on race and gender.

Not discriminating based on race and gender identity is the exact opposite of identity politics.

It's a recognition that when people discriminate on the basis of an identity that should be considered as irrelevant, that makes them assholes.

So adcoms admitting black applicants with worse GPA and test scores over more qualified whites and Asians are assholes. We agree on something at last!

The problem isn't the identity.

The problem isn't identity but identity politics.

Of course, this is all nuance lost on those who would themselves discriminate against people on the basis of meaningless identities, and who deny the existence of the shared suffering, and who would consider them invalid.

I agree with you on the first part. I disagree with you on the "shared suffering" bullshit. That's contrary to seeing people as individuals.