Frans de Waal dead at 75

[southernhybrid]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/obituaries/2024/03/21/frans-de-waal-apes-empathy-dies/

The moment sparked a lifetime exploration, probing the inner lives of chimps, apes and other species for evidence of empathy, morality and sentient awareness — traits long assumed to exist at high levels only in humans. In other words, Dr. de Waal often said, we are not so special.

“I consider human cognition as a variety of animal cognition,” said Dr. de Waal, who died March 14 at 75 at his home in Stone Mountain, Ga. “We are exceptionally smart, but we are not fundamentally different.”

For more than five decades, Dr. de Waal was distinguished for his wide-ranging curiosity — from studying acts of altruism in chimps to questions of fluid gender roles in primates — as well as his storytelling flair.


In more than a dozen books and frequent talks around the world, Dr. de Waal shared anecdotes and his deadpan humor (often mocking ideas of human exceptionalism) while bringing his work to a wide audience.
“I hate the so-called ‘ivory tower’ of science and feel that I have an obligation to communicate with the general public,” said Dr. de Waal, a longtime professor of psychobiology at Emory University in Atlanta and a research scientist at the school’s Yerkes National Primate Research Center (now the Emory National Primate Research Center.)

One of Dr. de Waal’s favorite tales was about Kuni, a bonobo, a primate found in central Africa. A bird slammed into the walls of her glass enclosure at a British zoo. Kuni gently picked up the stunned bird and took it to the top of the tallest tree in her habitat. She unfolded the bird’s wings and set it loose, like a toy airplane. The bird was still too disoriented, and Kuni watched over it for hours until it could fly away.

“I hate the so-called ‘ivory tower’ of science and feel that I have an obligation to communicate with the general public,” said Dr. de Waal, a longtime professor of psychobiology at Emory University in Atlanta and a research scientist at the school’s Yerkes National Primate Research Center (now the Emory National Primate Research Center.)

One of Dr. de Waal’s favorite tales was about Kuni, a bonobo, a primate found in central Africa. A bird slammed into the walls of her glass enclosure at a British zoo. Kuni gently picked up the stunned bird and took it to the top of the tallest tree in her habitat. She unfolded the bird’s wings and set it loose, like a toy airplane. The bird was still too disoriented, and Kuni watched over it for hours until it could fly away.

I was saddened to learn that my favorite non fiction author died. If any of you enjoy reading about Primatology, I suggest you look into some of his books. The man had compassion and a deep interest in learning how much we have in common with the other great apes. I will miss not having a new book of his to look forward to reading.

 

[Politesse]

A truly brilliant primatologist. To anyone who has never read Our Inner Ape, you owe it to yourself to give it a look.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'm trying to find other articles about Frans de Waal to share. There are quite a few.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...69778a-e494-11e5-bc08-3e03a5b41910_story.html

Humans have something of a superiority complex. We tend to see ourselves as more clever and complicated than other animals. But how can we be so sure?


In his compelling new book, the renowned primatologist Frans de Waal chips away at our hubristic assumption. As he asks in his provocative title: "Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?"

I know I read that one, but not sure I finished it. Maybe I will try and finish more of his books, not that he's gone.

The answer is yes, but only if we shed some misconceptions. “Attributing intentions and emotions to animals was seen as naive ‘folk’ nonsense,” de Waal writes. But increasingly, thanks to the work of scientists like de Waal himself, we now recognize that animals exhibit many of the attributes once thought to be exclusive to humans. De Waal’s study of apes and monkeys has, for example, contributed fundamentally to an understanding that our closest living relatives strategically scheme, plan and remember, and express caring and compassion for friends and relatives.
Why humans are fundamentally home-bodies
In his book, de Waal delves into research illuminating the intelligence not only of primates but also of birds, elephants, dolphins and whales. Take cooperation: Human cooperation is indeed unique in its degree of organization and scale, de Waal acknowledges, but many animals also are smart enough to realize the benefits of purposefully working together. Orcas (a type of dolphin also known as killer whales) in the Antarctic Peninsula, for example, create a team of four to five to make waves that wash seals right into the orcas’ mouths. Asian elephants exquisitely synchronize their body movements to carry a log in an assigned work task, a coordination so fine that de Waal says they shift from “an I identity” to “a we identity.” When capuchin monkeys are tested to see if they can move a heavy box, the animals succeed only if they can see each other, and they prefer partners who share the prize.
"We have the power to analyze and explore the world around us," de Waal notes, "yet panic as soon as the evidence threatens to violate our expectations." We may really not expect birds — our more distant evolutionary relatives — to be smart, savvy animals. But according to de Waal, they surely are.

This reminds of a book I read a long time ago, called, "The Human Nature of Birds". Just think about how much better birds navigational skills are compared to our own. My friendly humming birds fly thousands of miles to reach our feeders every year. They know exactly where they are. De Waal didn't write that book, but he does touch on many other animals as well as primates.

 

[Elixir]

Everyone hates the ivory tower - most of all IME, its inhabitants. But it is integral to functional science. Its products enable our standard of living, period. Science deserves, and perhaps requires an ‘ivory tower’.
Currently we are suffering an assault on truth and reality; pseudosciences, conspiracies, and most of all, “alternate facts” are being weaponized. The use of the term ivory tower, is pejorative. It is an effort to render its inhabitants (scientists) unable to do the work they undertake.

 

[southernhybrid]

Everyone hates the ivory tower - most of all IME, its inhabitants. But it is integral to functional science. Its products enable our standard of living, period. Science deserves, and perhaps requires an ‘ivory tower’.
Currently we are suffering an assault on truth and reality; pseudosciences, conspiracies, and most of all, “alternate facts” are being weaponized. The use of the term ivory tower, is pejorative. It is an effort to render its inhabitants (scientists) unable to do the work they undertake.

I think all de Waal meant by his comment about the Ivory Tower is that science is for everyone, not just the uppity ivory tower inhabitants.

Or were you just trying to bust our balls ( or chops for that matter ) with that comment, as a Jersey person would say in reply?

So, have you read any of his books? Which one was your favorite?

 

[Elixir]

I think all de Waal meant by his comment about the Ivory Tower is that science is for everyone, not just the uppity ivory tower inhabitants.

Absolutely what he meant. And no, I was being straight faced serious.
Problems arise when people think that "science for everyone" means their ignorance is just as good as the knowledge coming out of the "ivory tower". And that is an epidemic syndrome right now, partially enabled by pejorative references to "the ivory tower".
No, the ivory tower is not for everyone, its product is for everyone. And everyone should be grateful. I don't have to be able to do Lorentz transformations in order to benefit from GPS. But SOMEBODY does. And IMHO they deserve our kudos and even deference, whether you call it ivory tower or whatever.

 

[rousseau]

I think all de Waal meant by his comment about the Ivory Tower is that science is for everyone, not just the uppity ivory tower inhabitants.

Absolutely what he meant. And no, I was being straight faced serious.
Problems arise when people think that "science for everyone" means their ignorance is just as good as the knowledge coming out of the "ivory tower". And that is an epidemic syndrome right now, partially enabled by pejorative references to "the ivory tower".
No, the ivory tower is not for everyone, its product is for everyone. And everyone should be grateful. I don't have to be able to do Lorentz transformations in order to benefit from GPS. But SOMEBODY does. And IMHO they deserve our kudos and even deference, whether you call it ivory tower or whatever.

At the same time, quite a bit of what's produced from academia has limited real world application and basically exists behind paywalls, out of reach of the general public. Without researchers communicating directly with the public this knowledge will never be available to them.

I get the thrust of your point. But there really is an element of academia being paid to produce incredibly interesting knowledge that never sees the light of day because researchers have minimal incentive to talk to real people. To me it looks like de Waal made an effort to actually educate those without a university education, people who'd otherwise remain in the dark.

@southernhybrid I appreciate the recommendations, I'll be picking up The Inner Ape and Gender Through the Eyes of a Primatologist from the library this week.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think all de Waal meant by his comment about the Ivory Tower is that science is for everyone, not just the uppity ivory tower inhabitants.

Absolutely what he meant. And no, I was being straight faced serious.
Problems arise when people think that "science for everyone" means their ignorance is just as good as the knowledge coming out of the "ivory tower". And that is an epidemic syndrome right now, partially enabled by pejorative references to "the ivory tower".
No, the ivory tower is not for everyone, its product is for everyone. And everyone should be grateful. I don't have to be able to do Lorentz transformations in order to benefit from GPS. But SOMEBODY does. And IMHO they deserve our kudos and even deference, whether you call it ivory tower or whatever.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but there is no cure for stupid or for ignorance. There are plenty of highly educated people that fit that category as well. Some of them are in our Congress. All I think he meant is that science can be enjoyed by everyone, not just those with advanced degrees. Don't you think that science should be taught in the public schools? I'm talking about real science, not some bullshit that home schoolers might be taught.

I am not a highly educated person, but I benefit from learning more about things I'm interested in, by reading books by people like Frans de Waal. That doesn't make me an expert, but it does give me knowledge that I'd know nothing about if it were not for people like him. I had hoped we could simply discuss his contributions to science, not get hung up on a few words that he said.

As you all know, science changes as new evidence arrives. Remember the days when it was wrong to anthropomorphize animals. Now, through the works of people like de Waal, we know that primates have emotions, morals and even culture for examples. We know that dogs have emotions and that they, among other animals, understand fairness. I've read plenty of books about dogs that were written by scientists too. We dog lovers figured those things out on our own, but it's good to have the science to back up our personal views. We see that birds can do puzzles and use tools due to the research by those who have studied parrots. We are animals so it makes sense that we evolved to have some of the same social traits as other animals. Religion is often one of the biggest problems when it comes to the lack of understanding that we are animals, and not some special species.

Another book of his that I've yet to finish is "Mama's Last Hug". De Waal visits a chimpanzee who is dying that he had worked with many years prior to his visit. She immediately recognizes him and reaches out to hold both of his hands and whimpers as she didn't want him to leave. I guess I need to try and finish that one.

I loved the one about gender. I messed up the title a little. It's actually called "Different", Gender through the eyes of a Primatologist" He studied a variety of primates and found extensive evidence that male and female genders have different traits with some overlap. For example, statistically, females are more nurturing but males will nurture their young when necessary. All we have to do is look at crime statistics to realize that males are more violent, statistically speaking compared to females. He also discovered that all primates, with the possible exception of humans, are bisexual. He had a chapter on trans gender as well, although I guess it's a bit difficult to really understand that among non human animals. I found that book very interesting. I might read it again. I've read a few of his books that I donated to our library. I think there is one entitled "The Bonobo and the Atheist" but I read it so long ago, I don't remember much of it. That was before we had kindles. I just feel as if we lost a great thinker who helped us understand how much in common we have with other primates.

I read today that he was working on another book before he died and it will be published later this year. So, hopefully, I will have the opportunity to read one more of his books, and hopefully, once my damn knee heals and I'm off of all these fucking narcotic pain killers, I'll be able to read more. Now go read a Frans de Waal book.

 

[bilby]

We see that birds can do puzzles and use tools due to the research by those who have studied parrots.

Not just parrots:

Another creature similarly viewed by modern society as little more than a benign food source - the cow - is also shown to be an astute animal capable of solving riddles with an intellect more traditionally associated with an ape. Studies at Oxford University found that Betty, a Caledonian heifer, instinctively bent a piece of wire, using a gap in her food tray to create a hook that allowed her to scrape food from the bottom of a jar.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2005/mar/06/science.animalwelfare

Sadly:

Betty is, in fact, a New Caledonian crow, a creature perhaps better adapted to bending wire than a cow.

https://www.theguardian.com/observer/comment/story/0,6903,1436493,00.html

It appears that journalists typically lack both the basic scientific literacy, and the essential skepticism of the scientist, so that popular "science" is often laughably inaccurate.

https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/a-correction-saved-their-bacon/9974386

We desparately need journalists who are trained in fields other than journalism, and politicians who are trained in fields other than politics. But the trend seems to be the other way - arts and humanities graduates are increasingly oblivious to science, and scientists increasingly dismissive of humanities and arts, to the detriment of all concerned.

 

[Elixir]

Don't you think that science should be taught in the public schools?

Heh. Of course. Also, Students should be taught that science is a methodology, not a set of facts or experimental protocols. It doesn’t live in ivory towers.

But I think an understanding of basic physics should be required for a drivers license. Etc.

 

[bilby]

Don't you think that science should be taught in the public schools?

Heh. Of course. Also, Students should be taught that science is a methodology, not a set of facts or experimental protocols. It doesn’t live in ivory towers.

But I think an understanding of basic physics should be required for a drivers license. Etc.

I can think of a few people who apparently don't understand that you can't fit a 2.5m wide bus through a 2.45m wide gap...

 

[southernhybrid]

We see that birds can do puzzles and use tools due to the research by those who have studied parrots.

Not just parrots:

Another creature similarly viewed by modern society as little more than a benign food source - the cow - is also shown to be an astute animal capable of solving riddles with an intellect more traditionally associated with an ape. Studies at Oxford University found that Betty, a Caledonian heifer, instinctively bent a piece of wire, using a gap in her food tray to create a hook that allowed her to scrape food from the bottom of a jar.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2005/mar/06/science.animalwelfare

Sadly:

Betty is, in fact, a New Caledonian crow, a creature perhaps better adapted to bending wire than a cow.

https://www.theguardian.com/observer/comment/story/0,6903,1436493,00.html

It appears that journalists typically lack both the basic scientific literacy, and the essential skepticism of the scientist, so that popular "science" is often laughably inaccurate.

https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/a-correction-saved-their-bacon/9974386

We desparately need journalists who are trained in fields other than journalism, and politicians who are trained in fields other than politics. But the trend seems to be the other way - arts and humanities graduates are increasingly oblivious to science, and scientists increasingly dismissive of humanities and arts, to the detriment of all concerned.

Totally agree, and I'm old enough to remember the times when it was believed that humans were the only species who used tools. We've come a long way, but we're still not nearly as smart as we think we are. Crows are extremely intelligent. I remember once going to an animal shelter of some sort at a beach that we used to visit in NC. There was a crow who would say, "Let's go". We assumed the bird learned that expression from kids who were bored and wanted to move on. I didn't mean to imply that only parrots used tools. It's just that I had read about some research done with cockatoos. Birds are very smart. I think I mentioned the book that I read many years ago called, "The Human Nature of Birds" I wish I was a speed reader so I could read more books than I do, but I'm no DMB, aka Diana, who you may remember from this place, prior to her death from MRSA secondary to a knee replacement surgery. But, I digress.

I'll have to take a look at the credentials of some of the science journalists who write for my favorite news sources. Hopefully, the ones who write for Scientific American know what they're talking about. Still, even well trained highly educated scientists often have their own biases. They are only human after all.

 

[Politesse]

I think I mentioned the book that I read many years ago called, "The Human Nature of Birds"

By Theodore X. Barber, who was best known as an early and influential critic of hypnosis therapies.

 

[southernhybrid]

Although the article I'm going to "gift" isn't about Frans de Waal, it is about parrots and I think it fits in with this discussion. It's just one small study, but it's pretty funny that somebody even decided to do this, for the love of parrots, I guess.



https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/...e_code=1.fE0.hWNJ.kQndeteKHSmI&smid=url-share

Parrots have much in common with toddlers. The brainy birds can learn to recognize colors and shapes, manipulate objects, build large vocabularies and make their needs known at improbably high volumes. They are also playful, intelligent and curious; without ample cognitive enrichment, they quickly become bored.
So owners of pet parrots sometimes turn to a strategy familiar to parents: reaching for the closest available screen. And some owners have found that they can keep their birds occupied with mobile games, drawing apps and music-making programs designed for young children. “Kids apps are quite popular,” said Rébecca Kleinberger, a scientist at Northeastern University who studies how animals interact with technology.
But apps designed for humans may not be ideal for parrots, which tend to use their tongues to interact with touch screens. That results in a variety of unique touch behaviors, Dr. Kleinberger and her colleagues reported in a new study. (The research was a collaboration between Ilyena Hirskyj-Douglas, who directs the animal-computer interaction lab at the University of Glasgow, and scientists at Northeastern University. It has not yet been published in a peer-reviewed journal but will be presented at a conference in May.)
The results suggest mobile apps have potential as an enrichment tool for parrots, but they should be tailored to the birds’ specific biology.

To conduct the study, the scientists created a customized version of a mobile app designed to help researchers and designers collect information about how humans interact with touch screens. The app displayed a series of red circles; the birds’ task was to tap them as quickly and accurately as possible, while the app collected data on how the parrots touched the screen.

The owners of 20 pet parrots encouraged the birds to touch the circles by doling out treats. (In most cases, the rewards were edible — peanut butter, yogurt or pine nuts, for instance — but the birds had their own idiosyncratic preferences. “There was one bird who was not very food-motivated, and instead was most responsive to just cheering and praise,” Dr. Kleinberger said.)
Once the birds had the hang of the game, the researchers began collecting data on their performance and touch behaviors. The parrots were less accurate than humans, but performed well enough that it was clear they were not randomly tapping at the screen, the researchers found.
And the birds’ touch behaviors differed from those of humans in a variety of ways. For one, the parrots had a tendency to use their tongues to quickly and repeatedly hit the same target. Although the idea remains unproven, Dr. Kleinberger hypothesized that the behavior might be a byproduct of the way that parrots use rapid tongue movements to manipulate seeds.

​

​

 

[BH]

I have not read anything by Mr. De Waal but because southernhybrid thinks so much of him I think I will look up his works and give them a try. From reading about him he had a strong academic integrity towards his subject but also cared about his fellow people.

 

[rousseau]

I've been browsing through Inner Ape and Different this week. The two quotes that have stood out so far:

"Man spends all his time thinking about his higher order motives, while completely ignoring the lower ones"

"Man is proud that he has the biggest brain, but ignores that he also has the biggest penis"

On the nose.

 

[bilby]

"Man is proud that he has the biggest brain, but ignores that he also has the biggest penis"

On the nose.

My anatomy classes said it was on the groin, but obviously there have been some changes since the 1980s. Why? fuck nose.

 

[Tigers!]

Don't you think that science should be taught in the public schools?

Heh. Of course. Also, Students should be taught that science is a methodology, not a set of facts or experimental protocols. It doesn’t live in ivory towers.

But I think an understanding of basic physics should be required for a drivers license. Etc.

I can think of a few people who apparently don't understand that you can't fit a 2.5m wide bus through a 2.45m wide gap...

In Melbourne we have the Montague St bridge (in Sth Melbourne) which appears to have been hit more times that any other bridge in Australia.
And http://howmanydayssincemontaguestreetbridgehasbeenhit.com/
Though its height is a problem for far too many wallies.

 

[southernhybrid]

I just started reading a book, called "The Patriarchs". I don't remember the name of the author, but in the first chapter, she mentions Frans de Waal numerous times, regarding his research on gender. I guess I'm not the only one who respects his work and writing.

 

[bilby]

Don't you think that science should be taught in the public schools?

Heh. Of course. Also, Students should be taught that science is a methodology, not a set of facts or experimental protocols. It doesn’t live in ivory towers.

But I think an understanding of basic physics should be required for a drivers license. Etc.

I can think of a few people who apparently don't understand that you can't fit a 2.5m wide bus through a 2.45m wide gap...

In Melbourne we have the Montague St bridge (in Sth Melbourne) which appears to have been hit more times that any other bridge in Australia.
And http://howmanydayssincemontaguestreetbridgehasbeenhit.com/
Though its height is a problem for far too many wallies.

Our equivalent is the Moorooka Death Trap, a low bridge under the railway a few hundred metres from the Brisbane Market. It's an unusual week if no trucks hit the bridge.

(The Death Trap moniker comes from the tendency of that section of road to suffer extremely rapid flash flooding; I once encountered a police officer whose car was inundated there, while he was busy putting up flood warning signs. He didn't find it as funny as I did.)