Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[whichphilosophy]

So the cases I have seen for depraved heart are shooting someone starving a child...and playing Russian Roullete

But here is a discussion

http://law.justia.com/cases/maryland/court-of-special-appeals/1991/1758-september-term-1990-0.html

In Robinson v. State, 307 Md. 738, 745, 517 A.2d 94 (1986), the Court, quoting from R. Gilbert & C. Moylan, Maryland Criminal Law: Practice and Procedure § 1.6-3 (1983) at 21, said of this theory:
"A depraved heart murder is often described as a wanton and wilful killing. The term `depraved heart' means something more than conduct amounting to a high or unreasonable risk to human life. The perpetrator must [or reasonably should] realize the risk his behavior has created to the extent that his conduct may be termed wilful. Moreover, the conduct must contain an element of viciousness or contemptuous disregard for the value of human life which conduct characterizes that behavior as wanton."
Continuing, and quoting in part from 2 Wharton's, supra, § 143, at 197, the Court added: "The critical feature of `depraved heart' murder is that the act in question be committed `under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.'"

 

[whichphilosophy]

You are factually incorrect.

There is no evidence of that sufficiency. One would reasonably conclude that you have no training or actual experience in the law.

Again, I know enough to recognize that the case law so far presented doesn't really apply here.

Indications are to the opposite. I found this earlier so I will use this famous extract.

In Robinson v. State, 307 Md. 738, 745, 517 A.2d 94 (1986), the Court, quoting from R. Gilbert & C. Moylan, Maryland Criminal Law: Practice and Procedure § 1.6-3 (1983) at 21, said of this theory:
"A depraved heart murder is often described as a wanton and wilful killing. The term `depraved heart' means something more than conduct amounting to a high or unreasonable risk to human life. The perpetrator must [or reasonably should] realize the risk his behavior has created to the extent that his conduct may be termed wilful. Moreover, the conduct must contain an element of viciousness or contemptuous disregard for the value of human life which conduct characterizes that behavior as wanton."
Continuing, and quoting in part from 2 Wharton's, supra, § 143, at 197, the Court added: "The critical feature of `depraved heart' murder is that the act in question be committed `under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.'"

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nifong is the Pt-Ir kilogram prototype of dishonest prosecutors. The standard by which they are all measured. Right now Mosby weighs in at about 50 milli-nifongs but that can change...

The minor difference between the two cases is that we know a man is dead and that he was undead before being in police custody.

Then the police clearly did the right thing in killing him!

 

[RavenSky]

Yet you choose to speak so authoritatively on the subject, even going so far as to attempt to snark at me about the "test case"

Perhaps, if you wish to make a point, you should do your own research to support that point.

If you disagree, how about you find an example that is actually comparable. Challenge: find me a Maryland case of a "depraved heart" 2nd degree murder conviction where the act that led to death did not have a high risk of death or serious injury, i.e. risk comparable to giving somebody a "rough ride" rather than shooting somebody.

You are the one claiming the charge doesn't fit, so you can go do your own research. I don't need to prove god doesn't exist

 

[RavenSky]

given the number of settlements paid out from this city alone to people with injuries as severe as paralysis from exactly this action, I think it's pretty clear that it is extreme.

More people are paralyzed in the back of a Baltimore Police van than.... (fill in the blank)

Over 35 years, given that one of the cases is from 1980! A few cases over such a long time does not "extreme risk" make...

So it is your contention that every single Baltimore police officer gives every single prisoner in their custody an un-seatbelted "rough ride" such that we should be seeing far more injuries or deaths? Wow, you have a lower opinion of cops than us lefties do!

 

[RavenSky]

Mike Nifong

Why did you bring this person up? Is this like some fetish of yours? What's next rants against Al Sharpton?

because... DUKE!!! [drink]

 

[RavenSky]

As an aside. Is it good practice for the prosecution to go after a controversial case law just to get a few more years in prison?

Probably not. Part of me wonders if she's pulling a Corey.

 

[RavenSky]

So the cases I have seen for depraved heart are shooting someone starving a child...and playing Russian Roullete

But here is a discussion

http://law.justia.com/cases/maryland/court-of-special-appeals/1991/1758-september-term-1990-0.html

In Robinson v. State, 307 Md. 738, 745, 517 A.2d 94 (1986), the Court, quoting from R. Gilbert & C. Moylan, Maryland Criminal Law: Practice and Procedure § 1.6-3 (1983) at 21, said of this theory:
"A depraved heart murder is often described as a wanton and wilful killing. The term `depraved heart' means something more than conduct amounting to a high or unreasonable risk to human life. The perpetrator must [or reasonably should] realize the risk his behavior has created to the extent that his conduct may be termed wilful. Moreover, the conduct must contain an element of viciousness or contemptuous disregard for the value of human life which conduct characterizes that behavior as wanton."
Continuing, and quoting in part from 2 Wharton's, supra, § 143, at 197, the Court added: "The critical feature of `depraved heart' murder is that the act in question be committed `under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.'"

I wonder how the multiple stops and detours away from the police station - while refusing Freddie Gray medical attention each time - is going to play into the idea that the driver's "conduct must contain an element of viciousness or contemptuous disregard for the value of human life" and "the act in question [was] committed `under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.'"

 

[whichphilosophy]

In Robinson v. State, 307 Md. 738, 745, 517 A.2d 94 (1986), the Court, quoting from R. Gilbert & C. Moylan, Maryland Criminal Law: Practice and Procedure § 1.6-3 (1983) at 21, said of this theory:
"A depraved heart murder is often described as a wanton and wilful killing. The term `depraved heart' means something more than conduct amounting to a high or unreasonable risk to human life. The perpetrator must [or reasonably should] realize the risk his behavior has created to the extent that his conduct may be termed wilful. Moreover, the conduct must contain an element of viciousness or contemptuous disregard for the value of human life which conduct characterizes that behavior as wanton."
Continuing, and quoting in part from 2 Wharton's, supra, § 143, at 197, the Court added: "The critical feature of `depraved heart' murder is that the act in question be committed `under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.'"

I wonder how the multiple stops and detours away from the police station - while refusing Freddie Gray medical attention each time - is going to play into the idea that the driver's "conduct must contain an element of viciousness or contemptuous disregard for the value of human life" and "the act in question [was] committed `under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.'"

This could well be a key part of the prosecution case supported by the definition and earlier cases.
My only point would be risk of trial by media before the case begins. Hence the arguments should be left for the courtroom rather than the media.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The minor difference between the two cases is that we know a man is dead and that he was undead before being in police custody.

Then the police clearly did the right thing in killing him!

God you are so fucking hilarious.

 

[coloradoatheist]

As an aside. Is it good practice for the prosecution to go after a controversial case law just to get a few more years in prison?

Probably not. Part of me wonders if she's pulling a Corey.

I don't think so in this case. I think the family lawyer probably wanted it. Unless your opinion is that the prosecuter doesn't think there is evidence of a crime but has to do something because of political pressure?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Probably not. Part of me wonders if she's pulling a Corey.

I don't think so in this case. I think the family lawyer probably wanted it. Unless your opinion is that the prosecuter doesn't think there is evidence of a crime but has to do something because of political pressure?

High profile incidents result in a lot of pressure to nail someone. This often leads to bad prosecutions. Note how an awful lot of the exonerated death row cases come from such cases.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I don't think so in this case. I think the family lawyer probably wanted it. Unless your opinion is that the prosecuter doesn't think there is evidence of a crime but has to do something because of political pressure?

High profile incidents result in a lot of pressure to nail someone. This often leads to bad prosecutions. Note how an awful lot of the exonerated death row cases come from such cases.

Like the Boston Bomber?

 

[whichphilosophy]

I don't think so in this case. I think the family lawyer probably wanted it. Unless your opinion is that the prosecuter doesn't think there is evidence of a crime but has to do something because of political pressure?

High profile incidents result in a lot of pressure to nail someone. This often leads to bad prosecutions. Note how an awful lot of the exonerated death row cases come from such cases.

I'm not sure if often is the right word. Sometimes would be more appropriate. Despite the appeals system, there are still some innocent people who spend time in jail.

 

[RavenSky]

I don't think so in this case. I think the family lawyer probably wanted it. Unless your opinion is that the prosecuter doesn't think there is evidence of a crime but has to do something because of political pressure?

High profile incidents result in a lot of pressure to nail someone. This often leads to bad prosecutions. Note how an awful lot of the exonerated death row cases come from such cases.

Note, however, that those such case almost always involve poor black men (sometimes poor white men), and never police officers.

 

[whichphilosophy]

High profile incidents result in a lot of pressure to nail someone. This often leads to bad prosecutions. Note how an awful lot of the exonerated death row cases come from such cases.

Like the Boston Bomber?

This was a good case backed by good surveillance and well assembled evidence.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Video to be combed over till the cows come home:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/05/20/freddie-gray-didn-t-move-when-shackled.html

Baltimore police said Freddie Gray was “irate” in a transport van following his arrest and that they had to restrain him, but that account is being challenged by new video obtained by The Baltimore Sun. In the video taken by a bystander, Gray is seen “halfway out of the van, his stomach flat on the floor, and his legs hanging off the back. He does not move as four officers stand over him and place shackles around his ankles.”

 

[ksen]

Slippin' Freddie.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Video to be combed over till the cows come home:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/05/20/freddie-gray-didn-t-move-when-shackled.html

Baltimore police said Freddie Gray was “irate” in a transport van following his arrest and that they had to restrain him, but that account is being challenged by new video obtained by The Baltimore Sun. In the video taken by a bystander, Gray is seen “halfway out of the van, his stomach flat on the floor, and his legs hanging off the back. He does not move as four officers stand over him and place shackles around his ankles.”

And it still leaves question on how far the shackles reached, would that position allow him to hit the bolt etc. We don't have all the information and we are making guesses.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Video to be combed over till the cows come home:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/05/20/freddie-gray-didn-t-move-when-shackled.html

And it still leaves question on how far the shackles reached, would that position allow him to hit the bolt etc. We don't have all the information and we are making guesses.

Yes, any number of other things could have led to the injuries that would cause his death while in police custody.