From whom in the Black community should Kylie Jenner have sought permission to braid her hair?

[Toni]

That wasn't hyperbole. That's an accurate description of my feelings. It describes Stenberg and some other people who have expressed their views about CA over the years.

Your obsession with "ownership" warps your view.

Ownership is central to the question. But if nobody owns it, who 'belongs' to it?

Look at Azeala Banks (AB)'s feud with Iggy Azalea (IA). It's evident that Banks believes hip hop culture belongs to her and other black people, and whities like IA need not apply. But why does it? What did AB do to earn membership of the hip hop group, and what has IA done to be excluded from it?

Stenberg is 16 years old. She was 14 when the film in which she appeared appeared as a character in the film Hunger Games which fueled a particularly ignorant racist outcry by 'fans' who did not realize from reading the book that Rue, the character portrayed by Stenberg was black, although very clearly, Rue was black and was from a black community or 'district' in the parlance of the series of young adult books. I feel pretty certain of the racism in the outpouring of hatred, including sentiments that the death of Rue was sad until the poster saw a black child portraying the character. I'm pretty sure we (I know I did. Don't remember if you participatedl We = board) discussed this on the old board but don't have time to go back and look.

I mentioned the above as context: she's a young girl who has been the object of an outpouring of particularly ignorant racism because...she portrayed a character in a popular film based upon a popular book. The character is clearly black, as is the actress. The posters of racist comments were clearly...ignorant if not barely semi literate but equipped with an internet connection and apparently twitter feed accounts, if not functioning brains.

I can imagine why this young actress, whose remarks are very thoughtful and well expressed, might be a touch....touchy. Whether she wanted it or not, at a very young age, she was thrust into a very public bruhahah over black characters, actresses and whether the deaths of black children warranted sympathy the same way that the deaths of white children would.

In a 24/7 news cycle with people just living to jump on or manufacture any 'controversy' particularly if it involves any of that clan of attention whores related to Kim Kardashian, this adolescent's very thoughtful remarks were used to fuel some sort of 'war.'

Here's a couple of links:

http://www.eonline.com/news/676206/...oversy-i-didn-t-understand-the-larger-context

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/14/amandla-stenberg-cultural_n_7064420.html


As a white woman with black friends who have talked to me a bit about black hair and some of the extra attention/baggage/work/controversy/nonsense goes into whatever choice of hairstyle a black woman chooses, let me just say this:

Jenner--and Bo Derek, for that matter, and all the other white folks who decide to try on some bit of black culture have the option of simply walking away whenever they like. For Jenner, as soon as she's generated her family dictated quota of media attention.

As a young woman, I worked for several years in a position where I was a minority, by race, culture, nationality, language, religion. It was extremely educational and enlightening to me, especially since I grew up in an exceptionally homogeneous area where virtually everyone I knew was of the same race, religious and heritage and cultural background and a not insignificant of shared genetic background as well. Some times it was a little tough as I was the designated white female representative of my race. But I left every day at 5 p.m. and went back home to my majority white (but far more diverse than where I grew up) home. It wasn't something I had to carry around on my back or on my face or with my hair every single moment of every single day. I was extremely cognizant of that fact. I might be a minority at work but I was the dominant culture and frankly gained a significant amount of respect at work because of that status. In fact, one of the reasons I came to realize I was hired because I was a nice white girl.

 

[Metaphor]

Since appropriation does not require ownership, ownership is not central to the question.

Appropriation does indeed require ownership; the concept is meaningless without it. You're saying 'cultural appropriation' does not require that someone owns a culture.

I agree that nobody owns a culture, so nobody has the moral right to decide who gets to participate in a culture.

I think this another example of an extremely trivial issue that really does not merit attention.

Since one side in the events portray them as issues of CA, certainly they think it merits attention. Are you suggesting that IA is not appropriating hip hop culture, or that she is and it doesn't matter?

 

[RavenSky]

“What would America be like if we loved black people as much as we love black culture?”

That pretty much sums it all up, doesn't it?

 

[One]

But even if it has that cultural history, how is it cultural appropriation for someone to say that they like it and want to incorporate it into their own look?

When henna tattoos were popular, there wasn't an outcry about people appropriating Indian culture, it was just that exposure to Indian culture had people find an aspect of it that they liked and wanted to use. Any deeper meaning that could be conveyed by particular types of tattoos weren't important to the fashion trend and it was simply an inspiration for getting pretty designs on your skin. I don't see why cornrows would be all that different.

There was and still is an outcry regarding Henna because it is used outside of the traditional context namely as a fad or trend that means next to nothing beyond a fashion statement. I lived among Punjabi for three months for academic study. Among their complaints? Appropriation of henna, Indian attire, yoga, and meditation as fads that "hip, trendy white women do."

There has been one thing I have learned during my time studying comparative religion among the world's traditions: many of them have been pretty pissed off about white people taking aspects of their culture and using them without even knowing what they mean. In fact, this complaint existed within every culture I studied with. It surprised me a great deal.

Boston recently had an issue with the Japanese, for example: Stand Against Yellow Face.

Look at Azeala Banks (AB)'s feud with Iggy Azalea (IA). It's evident that Banks believes hip hop culture belongs to her and other black people, and whites like IA need not apply. But why does it? What did AB do to earn membership of the hip hop group, and what has IA done to be excluded from it?

She has to overcome a cultural majority to be accepted. That's their turf. She has to prove herself. Marky Mark did. Eminem did. She's hardly the first.
The opposition would be the same if IA was a black female soprano attempting to sing traditional Italian opera internationally, would it not?
The beautiful thing is that music is the easiest method to break down cultural barriers to appropriation and integration.
Humans that can effectively jam together transcend those blockages.

Has anyone here, besides me, actually listened to Iggy Azalea?

My favorite song from her is "Work." I had no idea she was white until I saw the videos. Same thing with Macklemore & Ray Lewis. "Thrift Shop" tripped me out. lol Love it

 

[Metaphor]

True, origination is central to the question and if you will notice, one side of this debate has not mentioned origination and, if allowed, WILL NOT mention origination.

I'm not sure which 'side' you're referring to, since I have already mentioned 'origination', and think it's entirely irrelevant.

Do you think people of Chinese ethnicity own Chinese cuisine?

Are you horrified, Athena, that KFCs (fried chicken of a particular type originating in the American south) are wildly popular in China and Japan? Is that cultural appropriation?

Has anyone here, besides me, actually listened to Iggy Azalea?

Why would it matter?

 

[Metaphor]

There has been one thing I have learned during my time studying comparative religion among the world's traditions: many of them have been pretty pissed off about white people taking aspects of their culture and using them without even knowing what they mean. In fact, this complaint existed within every culture I studied with. It surprised me a great deal.

Why should 'what they mean' have any bearing on anything? How does a wealthy white woman enjoying yoga and deriving a benefit from it affect Punjabis who are practising yoga for the 'right reasons'?

How is their viewpoint anything other than naked racism?

 

[Metaphor]

The opposition would be the same if IA was a black female soprano attempting to sing traditional Italian opera internationally, would it not?

When you say 'the opposition would be the same', I very much doubt it. I very much cannot imagine anyone anywhere ever having the balls to openly question the right of a black woman to sing opera, that she is 'appropriating' white culture.

But, even if the opposition were the same, the opposition would be ludicrous.

People of any ethnicity or gender has the same moral right to sing opera. It doesn't matter where or when or who originated opera. It's irrelevant.

Some of them might even be good at it.

 

[One]

Not addressed to me, but I'll bite:

Do you think people of Chinese ethnicity own Chinese cuisine?

In a sense, yes. This is why chefs desiring to prepare particular types of ethnic cuisine usually study among those cultures.
In the world of food, there has been a longstanding distain for "Americanized" versions of various cultural dishes. This is why Zagat rated chefs here in NYC will often list where they have studied to learn how to authentically prepare the meals. Few people dining in upscale parts of Manhattan are going to patronize a French restaurant if the chefs have not actually studied in France, for example.

Are you horrified, Athena, that KFCs (fried chicken of a particular type originating in the American south) are wildly popular in China and Japan? Is that cultural appropriation?

KFC is an example exporting an American business model. In a loose sense, this is appropriation of American culture - not Southern. McDonald's is also popular in those regions. No one would say that their food represents an ethnic culture.

Why would it matter?

It matters more to me because I find people are often offended over situations without even knowing the backdrop. In this case, we're talking about the music.
The fact that many people thought Iggy was black based on her music alone says a great deal about her talent. Adele is another example.
But as I've said, music can transcend barriers better than any other method.

 

[One]

When you say 'the opposition would be the same', I very much doubt it. I very much cannot imagine anyone anywhere ever having the balls to openly question the right of a black woman to sing opera, that she is 'appropriating' white culture.

You are right. They would say she is appropriating Italian culture instead.

And rather than openly state as much, opportunity would simply be unavailable.
I used to work over by Jilliard and the Opera House in Manhattan. To state that those doors have always been open to everyone is laughable.

The underground music scene has been more fluid in embracing things like this. Run DMC Aerosmith and The Beastie Boys hanging out. Eminem and Dr. Dre. Rick James and Teena Marie singing "Fire & Desire." Sammy Davis, Jr. and Frank Sinatra.

People of any ethnicity or gender has the same moral right to sing opera. It doesn't matter where or when or who originated opera. It's irrelevant.

Some of them might even be good at it.

I am not disagreeing with you. My only point was that what you see with Iggy also exists in the reverse.

But the fact is that large-scale opportunity has been denied many ethnic artists in the field of "high music" far more often than any white person rapping with a mike.

 

[Trausti]

The opposition would be the same if IA was a black female soprano attempting to sing traditional Italian opera internationally, would it not?

When you say 'the opposition would be the same', I very much doubt it. I very much cannot imagine anyone anywhere ever having the balls to openly question the right of a black woman to sing opera, that she is 'appropriating' white culture.

But, even if the opposition were the same, the opposition would be ludicrous.

People of any ethnicity or gender has the same moral right to sing opera. It doesn't matter where or when or who originated opera. It's irrelevant.

Some of them might even be good at it.

Think you hit it in your earlier post: it's about naked racism. These "cultural appropriation" dust ups only occur when a white/European is said to be taking from a non-white/non-European culture. For example, there are plenty of black opera singers. Their presence in opera is celebrated as diversity, and no one would seriously doubt their talent in the genre. But if a white/European person dare to explore a non-white/non-European culture, then it's the worst thing ever. If Iggy should stop because she's not black, then all non-whites / non-Europeans should stop partaking in white/European culture. To argue otherwise is pure hypocrisy.

 

[One]

Why should 'what they mean' have any bearing on anything? How does a wealthy white woman enjoying yoga and deriving a benefit from it affect Punjabis who are practising yoga for the 'right reasons'?

How is their viewpoint anything other than naked racism?

I don't know. Maybe it has something to do with the historical precedent of whites colonizing their countries, making them into second class citizens on their own land, and then forcing them to declare independence - usually through war - to gain freedom when they were already free to begin with. Or in the case of indigenous cultures, moving them off their land entirely for monetary gain, then having them adopt European customs at gunpoint or face the extinction of their people.

And the entire time these whites get to freely choose whether they will wear henna or wave around a rijis at a party where no member of that culture will ever be invited.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Of course they'll be invited. It's not like we're going to serve our own food.

 

[One]

Think you hit it in your earlier post: it's about naked racism. These "cultural appropriation" dust ups only occur when a white/European is said to be taking from a non-white/non-European culture. For example, there are plenty of black opera singers. Their presence in opera is celebrated as diversity, and no one would seriously doubt their talent in the genre.

Today it is seen as diversity. This is not the historical precedent whatsoever.

Le Chevalier de Saint-Georges composed many symphanies and operas in the 1700s. The main reason why he was not chosen to head the Paris Opera? His performers refused to take orders from a mulatto. Mattiwilda Dobbs performed at La Scala in 1953 - a feat unheard of at the time. There are others, such a Kathleen Battle and Leontyne Price, but these have been rare in history for the same reason: cultural appropriation.

And whites DO take issue with cultural appropriation. Not everybody is on board with the world being Irish on St. Patrick's Day, for example. In my neighborhood, a business closed once an Indian man took over ownership of a traditional Italian restaurant. The patrons did not know he was half-Italian and spent a great deal of his life in Italy. They simply assumed somebody that isn't Italian doesn't know a thing about Italian food.

But if a white/European person dare to explore a non-white/non-European culture, then it's the worst thing ever. If Iggy should stop because she's not black, then all non-whites / non-Europeans should stop partaking in white/European culture. To argue otherwise is pure hypocrisy.

This conversation implies this situation has not happened before. Iggy faces no serious opposition in the industry. Her success as a songwriter was established well before she became a rapper.

And this is the difference - nobody is stopping her from making money. Marky Mark had a career a long time before Iggy. He's white. Elvis learned his gyrations from black folks singing the blues. He still got on the stage. People may talk in the underground, but they don't shut the doors. And these white artists - even Vanilla Ice - have been accepted in a way that hasn't always worked in reverse. There have been a lot of opera singers that never made it to international stage because of this sort of thing. Dancers, composers, actors, etc.

An outcry against cultural appropriation is something I've seen all cultures do.

 

[laughing dog]

Appropriation does indeed require ownership; the concept is meaningless without it.

You are incorrect. Appropriation can mean the act of setting apart or taking for one's own use".

You're saying 'cultural appropriation' does not require that someone owns a culture.

Yes.

I agree that nobody owns a culture, so nobody has the moral right to decide who gets to participate in a culture.

Your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Since one side in the events portray them as issues of CA, certainly they think it merits attention. Are you suggesting that IA is not appropriating hip hop culture, or that she is and it doesn't matter?

I simply do not know nor do I care.

 

[One]

Of course they'll be invited. It's not like we're going to serve our own food.

:laughing-smiley-014

Count on you to see the sunny side of things. lol

 

[Metaphor]

In a sense, yes. This is why chefs desiring to prepare particular types of ethnic cuisine usually study among those cultures.

They study among the culture of 'Chinese food chefs' or they study only under the ethnically Chinese?

In the world of food, there has been a longstanding distain for "Americanized" versions of various cultural dishes.

Yes, I am quite familiar with the manufactured outrage over 'westernised' versions of dishes being prepared. The fact that the outrage exists does not mean it is rational.

This is why Zagat rated chefs here in NYC will often list where they have studied to learn how to authentically prepare the meals. Few people dining in upscale parts of Manhattan are going to patronize a French restaurant if the chefs have not actually studied in France, for example.

Half of wine connoisseurs can't tell the difference between white wine with red food colouring, and actual red wine.

Many wine connoisseurs will rate the exact same wine differently where the only difference is a serving temperature variation of 3 degrees.

People often act irrationally and the more you point this out, the tighter they cling to their irrational beliefs and behaviours.

"Studying in France" is not the same as 'studying French cuisine'.

Do you believe French cuisine can only be cooked by the ethnically French?

KFC is an example exporting an American business model. In a loose sense, this is appropriation of American culture - not Southern. McDonald's is also popular in those regions. No one would say that their food represents an ethnic culture.

So, 'appropriation' can happen but it's okay?

It matters more to me because I find people are often offended over situations without even knowing the backdrop. In this case, we're talking about the music.
The fact that many people thought Iggy was black based on her music alone says a great deal about her talent. Adele is another example.
But as I've said, music can transcend barriers better than any other method.

And yet IA's talent was not enough to save her from accusations of 'cultural appropriation'. Yet nobody can explain to me who counts as an outsider to a culture and why it's morally wrong for it to be 'appropriated'.

 

[Metaphor]

Your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Owners generally get to decide what happens to their property.

Since culture has no owner, there's no appropriate arbiter of who gets to participate in a culture, no appropriate arbiter of who gets to decide who's an outsider, and no morally coherent reason to reject participation of some people in the culture but allow others free reign.

 

[Metaphor]

And the entire time these whites get to freely choose whether they will wear henna or wave around a rijis at a party where no member of that culture will ever be invited.

Of course they do. Any person of any ethnicity is morally entitled to wear henna or wave a riji, whether they know anything about anything in the originating culture.

It is the people who want to restrict and exclude others from copying ideas from (and contributing to) a culture that they themselves have copied that are the intolerant bigots and worthy of moral condemnation.

 

[laughing dog]

Your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Owners generally get to decide what happens to their property.

Since there is no owner, this is irrelevant.

Since culture has no owner, there's no appropriate arbiter of who gets to participate in a culture, no appropriate arbiter of who gets to decide who's an outsider, and no morally coherent reason to reject participation of some people in the culture but allow others free reign.

Sorry but your conclusions do not follow. And, as you admitted earlier, Hindus would have a morally sound argument against Nazi appropriation of the swastika, which means there are occasions in which there is a morally coherent reason to reject participation of some people but to allow others free reign.

 

[Metaphor]

I used to work over by Jilliard and the Opera House in Manhattan. To state that those doors have always been open to everyone is laughable.

Whoever imagined they were always open? Who cares? Either it is morally okay for anyone of any ethnicity to sing opera or it isn't.

I'm in the 'it's morally okay' camp, and I think anyone who disagrees with me is morally wrong.

I am not disagreeing with you. My only point was that what you see with Iggy also exists in the reverse.

But the fact is that large-scale opportunity has been denied many ethnic artists in the field of "high music" far more often than any white person rapping with a mike.

No artist is 'ethnic'. Everyone has an ethnicity.

But, so what? It's a bad thing to exclude people solely because of their ethnicity. This used to be called 'racism'.