Fuck unity

[ronburgundy]

I'm not interested in unity with Trump supporters. They are the same people they were before the election, the source of most of the harm done in past 4 years, and they will find another conduit to exert their agenda.

I don't care that they are my fellow Americans, coworkers, neighbors, and members of my family. There are shitty and dangerously ignorant people in the world and they are just as likely to be found in those arbitrary groupings as on the other side of the world.

If the GOP retains a Senate majority there is practical reason for some negotiations. But whatever can be accomplished without them should be, and complaints from the ideological right will only be evidence that the morally right thing is being done. If Biden;s administration goes more than a day without "sky is falling" outrage coming from those who allied with Trump, then they aren't doing the job they promised and were elected to do.

 

[Brian63]

Very relatable.

I am sick of how much power the religious right, Rush Limbaugh and the like, Fox News have exerted over the last several decades. It has amounted to electing a man to presidential power who on 9/11/2001 had a first instinct to (falsely) brag about how now that the WTC towers had collapsed---which killed thousands of people---his skyscrapers were now the tallest in the city. Complete monster. The last 4 years in particular have been overwhelming with scandals, corruption, crime, unethical behavior, dishonesty, cruelty, incompetence, etc. from him and his associates.

Enough with the kid gloves. They deserve heavy criticism. There will be increased chance of conflicts with our family and friends. But at this point we also have to set boundaries, and they have been crossing them and continue to do so with no remorse.

I very much admire liberal leaders who I believe are sincere in their calls for unity, but also as public figures they have to say those things to some degree. For others of us, we can afford to put our foot down, and we should do so.

On Ray Comfort's Facebook page, I have been posting to various degrees, and it is stunning how much ignorance is so rampant and unchecked. Advocating our views makes a difference to some extent, as I know many of them have never been exposed to substantive criticism of their religion, and it is not their fault. Still, it is very trying for my patience. Need to take a break once in a while, but I plan on making secular activism one of my missions in life. So many of our problems stem from fundamentalist religion and its monopoly on power.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

The same people who claim to love America but then deny a pandemic is occurring? Yeah, fuck them.

 

[rousseau]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

After 4 years of them screaming "fuck your feelings", while being total hypocrites about it, I hardly care.

 

[rousseau]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

After 4 years of them screaming "fuck your feelings", while being total hypocrites about it, I hardly care.

Well there's the thing - if you claim to be a supporter of social progress, and and that you're an overall good, helpful person - but your actions have negative consequences and are counter to those goals, does that not cause some sense of cognitive dissonance? What is your motive for insulting Trump supporters? What are you trying to accomplish?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

After 4 years of them screaming "fuck your feelings", while being total hypocrites about it, I hardly care.

Well there's the thing - if you claim to be a supporter of social progress, and and that you're an overall good, helpful person - but your actions have negative consequences and are counter to those goals, does that not cause some sense of cognitive dissonance? What is your motive for insulting Trump supporters? What are you trying to accomplish?

I know you're trying to make me feel bad about insulting abusers who claim I don't deserve to exist, but I'm not falling for it.

 

[rousseau]

Well there's the thing - if you claim to be a supporter of social progress, and and that you're an overall good, helpful person - but your actions have negative consequences and are counter to those goals, does that not cause some sense of cognitive dissonance? What is your motive for insulting Trump supporters? What are you trying to accomplish?

I know you're trying to make me feel bad about insulting abusers who claim I don't deserve to exist, but I'm not falling for it.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad about anything - I'm just stating that there's a conflict between a) I want to improve the condition of my country and b) constantly referring to half of it's population as sub human.

Until the democrats in your country understand that, be prepared for your politics to become more and more fractured. Impact over intent.

 

[bilby]

 

[bilby]

 

[ronburgundy]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

Othering is the very foundation of American conservatism and the Trump base. Bigotry and anti-intellectualism has defined that ideology for well over a century. All that has changed is that the Civil Rights movement, GOP's Southern Strategy, and Christian Right movement all lead to a realignment where those with that ideology became more and more concentrated under one party. It's utter nonsense to suggest the causality is reversed and that their intolerant bigotries are a reaction to being "othered", or that their anti-intellectualism is a reaction to being insulted by "elites". They attacked "the elites" from the start and 99% of the vitriol comes from their direction. I'm not advocating that we waste time calling them names. I'm saying we shouldn't give a shit about appeasing them or if they are angry and opposed to what Biden does. As they proved yet again this week, they are only happy when others are disenfranchised and harmed, so any society worth fighting for is one they will fight against. Thus, we shouldn't pretend we are on the same side with the same values and goals. We most definitely are not and they pose the greatest obstacles to what our goals should be.

 

[Politesse]

I'm more than willing to seek compromise and unity with people who are also seeking compromise and unity with me. The problem the DNC has is that they are always trying to seek unity and healing by compromising their base principles to woo people who have no intention of doing likewise. This is why they are continually dragged further and further to the fascist Right over time.

And frankly, there are some things I'm just not going to ever compromise on. No, I don't feel "unified" with people who see destroying my entire life as their primary political goal. If you want me to divorce my partner, lose my job, and contract a deadly disease in the name of "unity"... uh, no, thank you. I have rights.

 

[rousseau]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

Othering is the very foundation of American conservatism and the Trump base. Bigotry and anti-intellectualism has defined that ideology for well over a century. All that has changed is that the Civil Rights movement, GOP's Southern Strategy, and Christian Right movement all lead to a realignment where those with that ideology became more and more concentrated under one party. It's utter nonsense to suggest the causality is reversed and that their intolerant bigotries are a reaction to being "othered", or that their anti-intellectualism is a reaction to being insulted by "elites". They attacked "the elites" from the start and 99% of the vitriol comes from their direction. I'm not advocating that we waste time calling them names. I'm saying we shouldn't give a shit about appeasing them or if they are angry and opposed to what Biden does. As they proved yet again this week, they are only happy when others are disenfranchised and harmed, so any society worth fighting for is one they will fight against. Thus, we shouldn't pretend we are on the same side with the same values and goals. We most definitely are not and they pose the greatest obstacles to what our goals should be.

Sure, I can accept all that. My point is that your behaviour needs to actually lead to the betterment of your country, and not more fracture. Pushing too hard to the left probably won't accomplish that. Insults won't accomplish that.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

I would agree that offending them won't change much. But then, i remember how frustrating it was, watching Obama try and try and try to respectfully meet them halfway, and get shit on every time. They just see respect as a form of weakness. As well as kindness, empathy, sympathy. And to conservatives, strength is defined as hating weakness.

 

[rousseau]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

I would agree that offending them won't change much. But then, i remember how frustrating it was, watching Obama try and try and try to respectfully meet them halfway, and get shit on every time. They just see respect as a form of weakness. As well as kindness, empathy, sympathy. And to conservatives, strength is defined as hating weakness.

Looking at the election that just happened it looks like you're playing a game of inches to me - painting the entire conservative base in the same light doesn't seem helpful. Yes, there are probably many that are beyond reach, but not all.

 

[Brian63]

On the other hand---I do see some merit in offending them, just not to their faces. It was always enforced on me as a child that I ought to respect religion and people's so-called "personal beliefs." It was not until later in life, especially when I came to the Internet Infidels forum (precursor to this) that I was mesmerized by seeing atheists do the exact opposite. Not only were they poking logical holes in religious arguments, but they were also being very critical and explicit about the harm done by religion. They were also making fun of religion. Seeing those 3 approaches taken together gave me a lot of confidence and made less afraid of religion than ever before.

I sympathize with religious fundamentalists themselves, but the belief system deserves heavy criticism and open ridicule. It has gotten too much protection for too long, and has exploited it for destructive purposes.

 

[Jarhyn]

Well there's the thing - if you claim to be a supporter of social progress, and and that you're an overall good, helpful person - but your actions have negative consequences and are counter to those goals, does that not cause some sense of cognitive dissonance? What is your motive for insulting Trump supporters? What are you trying to accomplish?

I know you're trying to make me feel bad about insulting abusers who claim I don't deserve to exist, but I'm not falling for it.

Sometimes my actions (punching nazis), have negative immediate consequences towards my goals (peaceful coexistence between persons).

Overall, however, the immediate negative consequences (a fight!) do not stand in violation of my principles, as removing an irritant, however irritating the act itself may be, is generally preferable, much like lancing a boil or painful blemish.

This is more of that "paradox of tolerance" bullshit wherein some bad faith asshole enjoins us to tolerate the intolerant, failing to understand that when someone is intolerant, they have abandoned the principles that are the basis for protection of the system.

 

[Keith&Co.]

painting the entire conservative base in the same light doesn't seem helpful.

So, should adjust the message? "Only SOME of you are bigoted murderous Nazis, but, sure the rest of you just STAND SHOULDER TO FUCKING SHOULDER WITH THEM AND ARE COMPLICT. But probably very fine people when you're not busy supporting fascism, parroting lies, and defending treason."

As someone put it, the Germans have a word for those people who did not hate Jews, nor want to rule the world, but joined the Nazi Party out of either hopes for patriotism or perhaps simple economic restoration.


The word is Nazi.

 

[rousseau]

Well there's the thing - if you claim to be a supporter of social progress, and and that you're an overall good, helpful person - but your actions have negative consequences and are counter to those goals, does that not cause some sense of cognitive dissonance? What is your motive for insulting Trump supporters? What are you trying to accomplish?

I know you're trying to make me feel bad about insulting abusers who claim I don't deserve to exist, but I'm not falling for it.

Sometimes my actions (punching nazis), have negative immediate consequences towards my goals (peaceful coexistence between persons).

Overall, however, the immediate negative consequences (a fight!) do not stand in violation of my principles, as removing an irritant, however irritating the act itself may be, is generally preferable, much like lancing a boil or painful blemish.

This is more of that "paradox of tolerance" bullshit wherein some bad faith asshole enjoins us to tolerate the intolerant, failing to understand that when someone is intolerant, they have abandoned the principles that are the basis for protection of the system.

I don't think it's so much tolerating them that's important, it's behaving in ways that don't make the situation even worse than it was before. Whatever that may be.

 

[Politesse]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

I would agree that offending them won't change much. But then, i remember how frustrating it was, watching Obama try and try and try to respectfully meet them halfway, and get shit on every time. They just see respect as a form of weakness. As well as kindness, empathy, sympathy. And to conservatives, strength is defined as hating weakness.

Looking at the election that just happened it looks like you're playing a game of inches to me - painting the entire conservative base in the same light doesn't seem helpful. Yes, there are probably many that are beyond reach, but not all.

Who, exactly, gave an inch? And to whom?