Fuck unity

[Emily Lake]

No, partly because I try not to inform them about my private life... All they need to fire someone is a plausible excuse, and those are easy to find or manufacture.

At least you have the option of hiding your sexuality. Unlike minorities and women. That said... social bias does exist, and is a real barrier. But I still don't think that the only thing holding back the horde of evil bigots from hunting you down is a law. I can understand being on the watch and being aware of what is changing in law. I can't, however, understand being in a constant state of fear over it.

Then why did almost half of them just vote for an unashamed sexist white nationalist???

Because he's not a Democrat, for the most part. Partisanship isn't as clear as "This side good, that side evil". At this point in the US, it's essentially become religious zealotry. It's easier to understand if you look at it as Catholics versus Protestants.

I would be very uncomfortable if we were to suddenly legalize murders, for instance. Is that because I think "most people" would suddenly murder their friends and neighbors if this happened? No, but the murder rate would definitely increase, especially since the same offenders could continue to murder whomever they liked without formal consequence or reprisal. Observe the American West; very few serial murderers as a proportion of the whole population, but murder itself and dueling were commonplace crimes that greatly disturbed the safety and propserity of the frontier states until the rule of law was re-established over the US' territorial claims.

Are you really considering the loss of protections for gay people to be equivalent to the legalization of murder? And do you really think that it's only the law that makes people averse to murder? I'm more inclined to think that if, in this absurd analogy, murder were to be legalized... a whole lot of murderers would find themselves executed in short order by regular citizens unwilling to tolerate their antisocial behavior. Similarly, if removal of protections for gay people in employment were to occur, you might get a handful of bigoted employers who fire people for being gay... and then you'd get a monstrous outcry, boycotting, and social pressure from regular citizens who are unwilling to tolerate such behavior.

FFS, Roe v Wade gets challenged no a regular basis, and abortion rights keep getting chipped away. Somehow, however, female humans across the country aren't living in a perpetual state of fear that they're going to be oppressed by the hordes of misogynists out there. We manage to be pissed off and angry, and to keep a close eye on regulators doing crap like that... without becoming panic-monkeys. And we're supposed to be the "hysterical" ones...

What, using the bathroom? For the record. I support both trans and cis women being allowed to use the bathroom.

Or you know... competing against females in sports, gaining access to women's rape and domestic violence shelters, being placed in the women's ward of the prison despite having intact male genitalia, becoming eligible for women's scholarships and grants, counting as women for Affirmative Action counts, being counted as women for board of director and leadership role diversity requirements, gaining women's recognitions and awards and short-list positions.

Oh... and suing women for discrimination because they won't wax their "ladyballs", suing gynecologists for refusing to provide a pelvic exam for someone without a vagina or cervix, harrassing lesbians as bigots for not wanting to have p-in-v sex with their "female penis".

Wanting all of this to be available on the basis of self-identification alone, with no medical diagnosis and no treatment.

No, I'm just a fucking human being. What's wrong with you? Is that the position you take on every crime? If it doesn't happen to you personally it isn't worth worrying about?

I'm also a human being. Furthermore, I'm a fairly intelligent and reflective human being, who is capable of caring about and empathizing with another person's plight without actually succumbing to fear myself. I oppose murder and rape. I don't live in constant fear of being murdered or raped... let alone live in constant fear that someone else will be murdered or raped. Being wary and having concern is rational; living in constant fear is not.

But some kind of leadership, informed by science, would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives by now.

I disagree. The pattern and the per-capita death rate of the US isn't substantially different from that of Europe as a whole. Some few lives may have been saved, but I don't think it would be nearly as big a difference as you believe it to be.

There's nothing irrational about empathy.

There's nothing irrational about empathy as a concept. There is something irrational about being overwhelmed by that empathy to a point where you yourself are in a constant state of fear as a result of that empathy.

 

[Politesse]

Because he's not a Democrat, for the most part. Partisanship isn't as clear as "This side good, that side evil". At this point in the US, it's essentially become religious zealotry. It's easier to understand if you look at it as Catholics versus Protestants.

The Troubles nearly turned Ireland into a failed state, and they still could. You have a bizarre rubric of what to be afraid or not afraid of.

Are you really considering the loss of protections for gay people to be equivalent to the legalization of murder?

Yes. Before we mobilized and claimed our most basic of civil rights, it was entirely possible to murder a gay person and escape any real punishment by claiming a "gay panic" defense. And this wasn't in ye olden dayes, that was the normal state of affairs when I was growing up.

And do you really think that it's only the law that makes people averse to murder?

So you are taking a pro-murder stance. Ya know what? I'm not going to argue with you. What the hell is the point? If you don't think laws should exist at all, there's no point in trying to convince you that certain laws should exist. For the record, no, I do not think that vigilantism is superior to a court system.

 

[Emily Lake]

And do you really think that it's only the law that makes people averse to murder?

So you are taking a pro-murder stance. Ya know what? I'm not going to argue with you. What the hell is the point? If you don't think laws should exist at all, there's no point in trying to convince you that certain laws should exist. For the record, no, I do not think that vigilantism is superior to a court system.

Dude, what the actual fuck? That's some sleezy quote trimming right there. I mean, just the epitome of dishonest framing.

 

[bilby]

The Troubles nearly turned Ireland into a failed state, and they still could. You have a bizarre rubric of what to be afraid or not afraid of.

Yes. Before we mobilized and claimed our most basic of civil rights, it was entirely possible to murder a gay person and escape any real punishment by claiming a "gay panic" defense. And this wasn't in ye olden dayes, that was the normal state of affairs when I was growing up.

And do you really think that it's only the law that makes people averse to murder?

So you are taking a pro-murder stance. Ya know what? I'm not going to argue with you. What the hell is the point? If you don't think laws should exist at all, there's no point in trying to convince you that certain laws should exist. For the record, no, I do not think that vigilantism is superior to a court system.

The "Gay panic" defence wasn't removed from law until March 2017 in my jurisdiction.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The same wikileaks? Assange's Wikileaks? That site turned hard. That man was bought and sold. Some of it was great, real, a lot of it was straight up shit. At this point, you'll have to have outside support.

Yeah, that also. Wikileaks is now basically a Soviet propaganda organ. Yes, there's real stuff, but since it's mixed with disinformation there's no point in paying attention as you have no way of knowing what's real and what isn't.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm inclined to say that's not going to become a widespread thing. Our social mores have changed. Even if the entirety of EOE statutes were overturned tomorrow, I don't think it's rational at all to live in fear that employers across the nation are just going to start firing minorities and women for no reason except they can. If you seriously think that the US is populated so heavily by bigots that social norms will just evaporate as soon as laws change, then you have an entirely different problem as it relates to the perception of reality.

A lot of the trumpets would.

In sufficiently red areas that might be enough employers to make life hard for those being discriminated against. In a blue area it wouldn't matter.

 

[Politesse]

I assume people who think "blue states" have no "red people" in them have never actually visited one? There is no such thing as a safe place. It only takes one person to commit a hate crime. A friend of mine was attacked and savagely beaten, got sent to an ER for it. While walking home from SF Pride. Safety is a myth that the priveleged can enjoy at their leisure.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I assume people who think "blue states" have no "red people" in them have never actually visited one? There is no such thing as a safe place. It only takes one person to commit a hate crime. A friend of mine was attacked and savagely beaten, got sent to an ER for it. While walking home from SF Pride. Safety is a myth that the priveleged can enjoy at their leisure.

The point is in blue states there would be plenty of other jobs. One asshole employer isn't a big deal.

 

[Playball40]

Well there's the thing - if you claim to be a supporter of social progress, and and that you're an overall good, helpful person - but your actions have negative consequences and are counter to those goals, does that not cause some sense of cognitive dissonance? What is your motive for insulting Trump supporters? What are you trying to accomplish?

I know you're trying to make me feel bad about insulting abusers who claim I don't deserve to exist, but I'm not falling for it.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad about anything - I'm just stating that there's a conflict between a) I want to improve the condition of my country and b) constantly referring to half of it's population as sub human.

Until the democrats in your country understand that, be prepared for your politics to become more and more fractured. Impact over intent.

I kind of disagree here. It seems the liberals are always the ones that have to take the "high road" and thus far all it's gotten us is a further move right. These fascist, racist, homophobic, transphobic trump supporters NEED to be shamed back into oblivion. I think Ron is talking about in his every day life, not necessarily in Congress - although even then we need to hold a hard line if we have the votes to do it.