- Joined
- Oct 22, 2002
- Messages
- 42,063
- Location
- Frozen in Michigan
- Gender
- Old Fart
- Basic Beliefs
- Don't be a dick.
How about Iran help rebuild?
No.Are you saying that because the Nazis are still here we should do nothing about them?The Nazis were not eliminated. They were driven out of power but still managed to pass on their ideology to following generation of willing listeners, both in Germany and abroad. To this day, there are Nazis in Europe and America proudly displaying their Nazi swag as they march through major cities. They aren't even trying to hide their racism, bigotry, or plans for 'undesirables' in their societies.
You can't kill an ideology. You can only work to build a society where resistance to it is stronger than support for it.
Who are these peacemakers of which you speak? The only ones who are trying to do something about Hamas are Israel and they get hammered for doing so. Outside actors want Hamas to survive for their own purposes. They care nothing nothing for the residents of Gaza.No.Are you saying that because the Nazis are still here we should do nothing about them?The Nazis were not eliminated. They were driven out of power but still managed to pass on their ideology to following generation of willing listeners, both in Germany and abroad. To this day, there are Nazis in Europe and America proudly displaying their Nazi swag as they march through major cities. They aren't even trying to hide their racism, bigotry, or plans for 'undesirables' in their societies.
You can't kill an ideology. You can only work to build a society where resistance to it is stronger than support for it.
I am advocating building societies where resistance to ideologies like those espoused by the Nazis and Hamas is greater than support for them. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
This thread is about the future of Gaza. If you believe Hamas is very much like the Nazi Party (and I'm not disagreeing with you here) then let's consider
1. the conditions under which they came to power
2. how they were able to convince their followers to commit blatant injustices and atrocities, and the rest of society to ignore or deny what was happening.
3. how the Nazis were, and Hamas can be, kept from returning to power after their defeat.
If you want peace, you have to support the peacemakers.
The blockade of Gaza by both Israel and Egypt has been a disaster.If you want Palestinians to be nice and peaceful, you have to allow them to live nice, peaceful lives. Sure, there will always be assholes causing trouble. We're talking about human beings here, and there isn't a single race, ethnicity, culture, or religious community that doesn't have them. But you can't just ignore it when people treat others like shit and take their lives and their livelihoods, or employ double standards when deciding if you are for or against that sort of thing. Not if you want peace
So, first off: historians and scholars widely agree the economic disaster that was Germany in the 1920s and 1930s was fertile ground for extremist political parties and blaming 'others' for the German people's suffering. Do you agree? Do you see a similarity between Germany then and Gaza in the early 2000's to the present?
Agreed. But if Hamas are allowed to divert supplies, money again for their own nefarious purposes then it will have been for naught. And so far nobody within these fora or without has proposed any mechanism to do so. Until a mechanism is available such discussions are just academic.If so, then any plans we consider for the future of Gaza will have to allow for greater prosperity than what has been attainable there over the past 20 years or so. Otherwise, we would just be replicating conditions we already know have led to very bad outcomes.
Well, for starters, everyone who negotiated the ceasefire that led to the release of hostages and prisoners in December. Also, every person who has publicly stated their dedication to a peaceful resolution to the conflict, which usually but not always means advocating for a Two State solution. There have been several specific individuals that I have read about over the years, and thousands of unnamed peace activists who have been persistently working for an end to the violence and injustice.Who are these peacemakers of which you speak?No.Are you saying that because the Nazis are still here we should do nothing about them?The Nazis were not eliminated. They were driven out of power but still managed to pass on their ideology to following generation of willing listeners, both in Germany and abroad. To this day, there are Nazis in Europe and America proudly displaying their Nazi swag as they march through major cities. They aren't even trying to hide their racism, bigotry, or plans for 'undesirables' in their societies.
You can't kill an ideology. You can only work to build a society where resistance to it is stronger than support for it.
I am advocating building societies where resistance to ideologies like those espoused by the Nazis and Hamas is greater than support for them. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
This thread is about the future of Gaza. If you believe Hamas is very much like the Nazi Party (and I'm not disagreeing with you here) then let's consider
1. the conditions under which they came to power
2. how they were able to convince their followers to commit blatant injustices and atrocities, and the rest of society to ignore or deny what was happening.
3. how the Nazis were, and Hamas can be, kept from returning to power after their defeat.
If you want peace, you have to support the peacemakers.
I do not believe the Israelis are the only ones trying to do something about Hamas, but I am more than willing to consider whatever evidence you have that it might be true.The only ones who are trying to do something about Hamas are Israel and they get hammered for doing so.
Agreed.Outside actors want Hamas to survive for their own purposes. They care nothing nothing for the residents of Gaza.
The blockade of Gaza by both Israel and Egypt has been a disaster.If you want Palestinians to be nice and peaceful, you have to allow them to live nice, peaceful lives. Sure, there will always be assholes causing trouble. We're talking about human beings here, and there isn't a single race, ethnicity, culture, or religious community that doesn't have them. But you can't just ignore it when people treat others like shit and take their lives and their livelihoods, or employ double standards when deciding if you are for or against that sort of thing. Not if you want peace
So, first off: historians and scholars widely agree the economic disaster that was Germany in the 1920s and 1930s was fertile ground for extremist political parties and blaming 'others' for the German people's suffering. Do you agree? Do you see a similarity between Germany then and Gaza in the early 2000's to the present?
Agreed. But if Hamas are allowed to divert supplies, money again for their own nefarious purposes then it will have been for naught. And so far nobody within these fora or without has proposed any mechanism to do so. Until a mechanism is available such discussions are just academic.If so, then any plans we consider for the future of Gaza will have to allow for greater prosperity than what has been attainable there over the past 20 years or so. Otherwise, we would just be replicating conditions we already know have led to very bad outcomes.
Hamas, the entity, is easily identifiable. The individuals that comprise it are hidden in both identity and location.If Hamas is easily identifiable to the world, then why dies the IDF have such trouble identifying them?What importance is attached to Hamas not being a recognised political party? They exist and are a threat to Israel as you have noted previously.The Nazis were a recognized political party who proudly identified themselves. in Hamas and other terrorists are not.
Hamas do not proudly identify themselves? That is news to the rest of the world.
But it doesn't have to be an existential threat to justify taking them out. You're acting like Jews don't matter.It is not possible to eliminate Hamas as an “ existential threat” ( assuming it has ever or will ever have that capability), I haven’t called IDF campaign genocidal. I don’t believe in the category of war crime ad useful or necessarily representing an agreed upon set of laws.Tigers! said:If you could please point out previously where you noted what steps Israel could do to defend themselves, free the hostages and eliminate Hamas as being an existential threat to Israel's and Jews' existence without the calls of genocide, disproportionate response, war crimes etc. .The analogy between this situation and WWII is so unconvincing on so many levels beyond elimination of Jews that its invocation serms more like a desperate attempt to obscure the lack of a real argument than anything else.
That would be most convenient
All of which would be clear to someone who carefully read this thread.
I agree. But IMO it does in order to justify taking out Gazan civilians and hindering humanitarian aid. You are acting like Gazan civilian life doesn't matter.Hamas, the entity, is easily identifiable. The individuals that comprise it are hidden in both identity and location.If Hamas is easily identifiable to the world, then why dies the IDF have such trouble identifying them?What importance is attached to Hamas not being a recognised political party? They exist and are a threat to Israel as you have noted previously.The Nazis were a recognized political party who proudly identified themselves. in Hamas and other terrorists are not.
Hamas do not proudly identify themselves? That is news to the rest of the world.
But it doesn't have to be an existential threat to justify taking them out.It is not possible to eliminate Hamas as an “ existential threat” ( assuming it has ever or will ever have that capability), I haven’t called IDF campaign genocidal. I don’t believe in the category of war crime ad useful or necessarily representing an agreed upon set of laws.Tigers! said:If you could please point out previously where you noted what steps Israel could do to defend themselves, free the hostages and eliminate Hamas as being an existential threat to Israel's and Jews' existence without the calls of genocide, disproportionate response, war crimes etc. .The analogy between this situation and WWII is so unconvincing on so many levels beyond elimination of Jews that its invocation serms more like a desperate attempt to obscure the lack of a real argument than anything else.
That would be most convenient
All of which would be clear to someone who carefully read this thread.
No, I'm not. But please peddle that bs passive aggressive accusations of antisemitism somewhere else.You're acting like Jews don't matter.
When you work out how to get Hamas to agree to that then let us all know. And without causing civilian casualties.Agreed.
The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.
Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.
Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.When you work out how to get Hamas to agree to that then let us all know. And without causing civilian casualties.Agreed.
The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.
Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.
Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.
The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.
Of coursePlease stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.When you work out how to get Hamas to agree to that then let us all know. And without causing civilian casualties.Agreed.
The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.
Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.
Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.
The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.
Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.
We don't disagree on that point. Apparently we disagree on what should be done in Gaza to the Gazans.
I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?
I honestly think that both sides will simply get pushed further to the extremes and it will just keep getting worse.
Of course, what?Of coursePlease stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.When you work out how to get Hamas to agree to that then let us all know. And without causing civilian casualties.Agreed.
The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.
Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.
Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.
The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.
Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.
We don't disagree on that point. Apparently we disagree on what should be done in Gaza to the Gazans.
I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?
Hindering aid? You mean the aid that's piling up inside Gaza because Hamas isn't allowing anyone to pick it up? Conveniently omitted from UN reports of how much aid is arriving.I agree. But IMO it does in order to justify taking out Gazan civilians and hindering humanitarian aid. You are acting like Gazan civilian life doesn't matter.
Your solution to everything is to ignore dead Jews.No, I'm not. But please peddle that bs passive aggressive accusations of antisemitism somewhere else.You're acting like Jews don't matter.
Hamas wants it to be a shithole, it's going to be a shithole. I don't think anybody has the power to change that other than by forcing Iran to quit supporting terror. The nuts aren't going to get the ethnic cleansing they want.Gaza after the war is going to be a worse shithole than it was before. And it will stay that way for a long time regardless who are the overlords or overseers. The only way it will clear up fast is if the ultra-right in Israel gets its way and finishes the ethnic cleansing they have been clamoring for.
That's not going to happen because their budget and industrial base will be untouched at the end of the war.Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.
The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.
He's not moving the goalposts. He's just not accepting your false ideas of how things are.Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.
At the ballot box?? Hamas would win.Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.
And you're still falling for the fundamental fallacy that what is happening in Gaza has anything to do with Israel's past actions. Until you accept that Iran is the driving force you'll never understand what's going on.I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?
No, I don’t.Hindering aid? You mean the aid that's piling up inside Gaza because Hamas isn't allowing anyone to pick it up? Conveniently omitted from UN reports of how much aid is arriving.I agree. But IMO it does in order to justify taking out Gazan civilians and hindering humanitarian aid. You are acting like Gazan civilian life doesn't matter.
Repetition of a false accusations doesn’t make it truer. But it does make you look more desperate and less tethered to reality.Loren Pechtel said:Your solution to everything is to ignore dead Jews.
So, Israel is helping Hamas achieve its goal of making Gaza even shittier. Of course, a shittier Gaza is a more effective breeding ground for terrorists. So it would seem that your solution of inflicting more death and destruction in Gaza is going to end up with more dead Israelis.Loren Pechtel said:Hamas wants it to be a shithole, it's going to be a shithole. I don't think anybody has the power to change that other than by forcing Iran to quit supporting terror. The nuts aren't going to get the ethnic cleansing they want.
No, they bombed a site where 2 senior Hamas operatives were located. Unfortunately, there was a fire that spread to the displacement camp.They bombed a refugee camp, today.
No, it was not "mostly children". 23 out of 45 (a bare majority) were identified by Hamas as "women, children and elderly". That means that 22/45, almost half, were non-elderly adult men. That is more than twice their share of the population, suggesting that among the dead more than those two senior operatives were terrorists. Otherwise, one would expect the demographics of fatalities to follow the population demographics more closely.45 dead, hundreds wounded, mostly children.
At some point, this war will be over. The point is, if Hamas stays in power, the next one will happen sooner rather than later.There will be no "after the war".
He's not moving the goalposts. He's just not accepting your false ideas of how things are.Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.
I say Hamas must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box.At the ballot box?? Hamas would win.Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.
And, yes, you say it again and again and again--but never show that your ideas are connected with the actual situation.
And you're still falling for the fundamental fallacy that what is happening in Gaza has anything to do with Israel's past actions. Until you accept that Iran is the driving force you'll never understand what's going on.I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?
I am glad that you have stated this. What do you think "defeated on the ground" really means in practical terms? Israel is trying to do this and you have made it clear that you are are not happy/pleased/approve of Israel's actions.He's not moving the goalposts. He's just not accepting your false ideas of how things are.Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.
The goalposts are moved every time a new bar is set. Most recently they moved when Tigers! said to get back to him when I had worked out a solution that did not involve civilian casualties. It was a non sequitur masquerading as a response to my point that the economic recovery of Gaza had to be for the benefit of the Gazans, because screwing them over yet again would be recreating the conditions that allow extremist political parties like Hamas and Nazis to come to power.
I say Hamas must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box.At the ballot box?? Hamas would win.Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.
And, yes, you say it again and again and again--but never show that your ideas are connected with the actual situation.
YesDo you disagree? If so, please explain what you think the actual situation is.
If not, then what's the point of your response here? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
And you're still falling for the fundamental fallacy that what is happening in Gaza has anything to do with Israel's past actions. Until you accept that Iran is the driving force you'll never understand what's going on.I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?
In your opinion Iran is the driving force. Okay, that's what you think.
This discussion is about the future of Gaza. Earlier in this thread Tigers! compared Hamas to the Nazi Party in Germany. I agreed the comparison was apt. I said we should consider:
1. how they came to power
Yes2. how they were able to convince their followers to commit blatant injustices and atrocities, and the rest of society to ignore or deny what was happening
See above. At the moment this is the crux of the matter.3. how the Nazis were, and Hamas can be, kept from returning to power after their defeat.
Actually, what we have seen suggests that most of the dead were civilians--but that it was due to secondaries. Israel nailed a jeep, the jeep was carrying stuff that went boom, that threw shrapnel that hit fuel.No, it was not "mostly children". 23 out of 45 (a bare majority) were identified by Hamas as "women, children and elderly". That means that 22/45, almost half, were non-elderly adult men. That is more than twice their share of the population, suggesting that among the dead more than those two senior operatives were terrorists. Otherwise, one would expect the demographics of fatalities to follow the population demographics more closely.