Gaza after the war

[ZiprHead]

How about Iran help rebuild?

 

[Arctish]

The Nazis were not eliminated. They were driven out of power but still managed to pass on their ideology to following generation of willing listeners, both in Germany and abroad. To this day, there are Nazis in Europe and America proudly displaying their Nazi swag as they march through major cities. They aren't even trying to hide their racism, bigotry, or plans for 'undesirables' in their societies.

You can't kill an ideology. You can only work to build a society where resistance to it is stronger than support for it.

Are you saying that because the Nazis are still here we should do nothing about them?

No.

I am advocating building societies where resistance to ideologies like those espoused by the Nazis and Hamas is greater than support for them. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

This thread is about the future of Gaza. If you believe Hamas is very much like the Nazi Party (and I'm not disagreeing with you here) then let's consider

1. the conditions under which they came to power

2. how they were able to convince their followers to commit blatant injustices and atrocities, and the rest of society to ignore or deny what was happening.

3. how the Nazis were, and Hamas can be, kept from returning to power after their defeat.

If you want peace, you have to support the peacemakers. If you want Palestinians to be nice and peaceful, you have to allow them to live nice, peaceful lives. Sure, there will always be assholes causing trouble. We're talking about human beings here, and there isn't a single race, ethnicity, culture, or religious community that doesn't have them. But you can't just ignore it when people treat others like shit and take their lives and their livelihoods, or employ double standards when deciding if you are for or against that sort of thing. Not if you want peace

So, first off: historians and scholars widely agree the economic disaster that was Germany in the 1920s and 1930s was fertile ground for extremist political parties and blaming 'others' for the German people's suffering. Do you agree? Do you see a similarity between Germany then and Gaza in the early 2000's to the present?

If so, then any plans we consider for the future of Gaza will have to allow for greater prosperity than what has been attainable there over the past 20 years or so. Otherwise, we would just be replicating conditions we already know have led to very bad outcomes.

 

[Tigers!]

The Nazis were not eliminated. They were driven out of power but still managed to pass on their ideology to following generation of willing listeners, both in Germany and abroad. To this day, there are Nazis in Europe and America proudly displaying their Nazi swag as they march through major cities. They aren't even trying to hide their racism, bigotry, or plans for 'undesirables' in their societies.

You can't kill an ideology. You can only work to build a society where resistance to it is stronger than support for it.

Are you saying that because the Nazis are still here we should do nothing about them?

No.

I am advocating building societies where resistance to ideologies like those espoused by the Nazis and Hamas is greater than support for them. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

This thread is about the future of Gaza. If you believe Hamas is very much like the Nazi Party (and I'm not disagreeing with you here) then let's consider

1. the conditions under which they came to power

2. how they were able to convince their followers to commit blatant injustices and atrocities, and the rest of society to ignore or deny what was happening.

3. how the Nazis were, and Hamas can be, kept from returning to power after their defeat.

If you want peace, you have to support the peacemakers.

Who are these peacemakers of which you speak? The only ones who are trying to do something about Hamas are Israel and they get hammered for doing so. Outside actors want Hamas to survive for their own purposes. They care nothing nothing for the residents of Gaza.

If you want Palestinians to be nice and peaceful, you have to allow them to live nice, peaceful lives. Sure, there will always be assholes causing trouble. We're talking about human beings here, and there isn't a single race, ethnicity, culture, or religious community that doesn't have them. But you can't just ignore it when people treat others like shit and take their lives and their livelihoods, or employ double standards when deciding if you are for or against that sort of thing. Not if you want peace

So, first off: historians and scholars widely agree the economic disaster that was Germany in the 1920s and 1930s was fertile ground for extremist political parties and blaming 'others' for the German people's suffering. Do you agree? Do you see a similarity between Germany then and Gaza in the early 2000's to the present?

The blockade of Gaza by both Israel and Egypt has been a disaster.

If so, then any plans we consider for the future of Gaza will have to allow for greater prosperity than what has been attainable there over the past 20 years or so. Otherwise, we would just be replicating conditions we already know have led to very bad outcomes.

Agreed. But if Hamas are allowed to divert supplies, money again for their own nefarious purposes then it will have been for naught. And so far nobody within these fora or without has proposed any mechanism to do so. Until a mechanism is available such discussions are just academic.

 

[Arctish]

The Nazis were not eliminated. They were driven out of power but still managed to pass on their ideology to following generation of willing listeners, both in Germany and abroad. To this day, there are Nazis in Europe and America proudly displaying their Nazi swag as they march through major cities. They aren't even trying to hide their racism, bigotry, or plans for 'undesirables' in their societies.

You can't kill an ideology. You can only work to build a society where resistance to it is stronger than support for it.

Are you saying that because the Nazis are still here we should do nothing about them?

No.

I am advocating building societies where resistance to ideologies like those espoused by the Nazis and Hamas is greater than support for them. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

This thread is about the future of Gaza. If you believe Hamas is very much like the Nazi Party (and I'm not disagreeing with you here) then let's consider

1. the conditions under which they came to power

2. how they were able to convince their followers to commit blatant injustices and atrocities, and the rest of society to ignore or deny what was happening.

3. how the Nazis were, and Hamas can be, kept from returning to power after their defeat.

If you want peace, you have to support the peacemakers.

Who are these peacemakers of which you speak?

Well, for starters, everyone who negotiated the ceasefire that led to the release of hostages and prisoners in December. Also, every person who has publicly stated their dedication to a peaceful resolution to the conflict, which usually but not always means advocating for a Two State solution. There have been several specific individuals that I have read about over the years, and thousands of unnamed peace activists who have been persistently working for an end to the violence and injustice.

I don't think we need to name names, but we do need to acknowledge their existence and the importance of what they do.

The only ones who are trying to do something about Hamas are Israel and they get hammered for doing so.

I do not believe the Israelis are the only ones trying to do something about Hamas, but I am more than willing to consider whatever evidence you have that it might be true.

Anyway, Israel is not getting hammered for trying to do something about Hamas. It is getting criticized for the actions of the IDF which, if not policy, at least have the appearance of being approved by the Israeli government: slaughtering everyone in the vicinity of persons suspected (in some undefined way) of being affiliated with Hamas, murdering international aid workers delivering food and humanitarian relief to refugees, cutting off the supply of water to refugee camps, murdering unarmed people with their hands up trying to surrender, murdering grandmothers walking preschoolers to safety, murdering prisoners, and other war crimes.

Doing something about Hamas is not a free pass to commit crimes against humanity.

Outside actors want Hamas to survive for their own purposes. They care nothing nothing for the residents of Gaza.

If you want Palestinians to be nice and peaceful, you have to allow them to live nice, peaceful lives. Sure, there will always be assholes causing trouble. We're talking about human beings here, and there isn't a single race, ethnicity, culture, or religious community that doesn't have them. But you can't just ignore it when people treat others like shit and take their lives and their livelihoods, or employ double standards when deciding if you are for or against that sort of thing. Not if you want peace

So, first off: historians and scholars widely agree the economic disaster that was Germany in the 1920s and 1930s was fertile ground for extremist political parties and blaming 'others' for the German people's suffering. Do you agree? Do you see a similarity between Germany then and Gaza in the early 2000's to the present?

The blockade of Gaza by both Israel and Egypt has been a disaster.

If so, then any plans we consider for the future of Gaza will have to allow for greater prosperity than what has been attainable there over the past 20 years or so. Otherwise, we would just be replicating conditions we already know have led to very bad outcomes.

Agreed. But if Hamas are allowed to divert supplies, money again for their own nefarious purposes then it will have been for naught. And so far nobody within these fora or without has proposed any mechanism to do so. Until a mechanism is available such discussions are just academic.

Agreed.

The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.

Jared Kushner indicated he is more than willing to build condos and shopping centers in Gaza, but I believe he thinks only Israelis, his investors, and his family will benefit from them. In fact, I believe he is colluding with Netanyahu and other hardcore Zionists to stake a claim to all that prime waterfront real estate. He indicated his plans were for after the Gazans were either killed off or forcibly relocated to clear the way for his shiny new developments. IOW, the antithesis of peacemaking.

Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Nazis were a recognized political party who proudly identified themselves. in Hamas and other terrorists are not.

What importance is attached to Hamas not being a recognised political party? They exist and are a threat to Israel as you have noted previously.
Hamas do not proudly identify themselves? That is news to the rest of the world.

If Hamas is easily identifiable to the world, then why dies the IDF have such trouble identifying them?

Hamas, the entity, is easily identifiable. The individuals that comprise it are hidden in both identity and location.

The analogy between this situation and WWII is so unconvincing on so many levels beyond elimination of Jews that its invocation serms more like a desperate attempt to obscure the lack of a real argument than anything else.

If you could please point out previously where you noted what steps Israel could do to defend themselves, free the hostages and eliminate Hamas as being an existential threat to Israel's and Jews' existence without the calls of genocide, disproportionate response, war crimes etc. .
That would be most convenient

It is not possible to eliminate Hamas as an “ existential threat” ( assuming it has ever or will ever have that capability), I haven’t called IDF campaign genocidal. I don’t believe in the category of war crime ad useful or necessarily representing an agreed upon set of laws.

All of which would be clear to someone who carefully read this thread.

But it doesn't have to be an existential threat to justify taking them out. You're acting like Jews don't matter.

 

[laughing dog]

The Nazis were a recognized political party who proudly identified themselves. in Hamas and other terrorists are not.

What importance is attached to Hamas not being a recognised political party? They exist and are a threat to Israel as you have noted previously.
Hamas do not proudly identify themselves? That is news to the rest of the world.

If Hamas is easily identifiable to the world, then why dies the IDF have such trouble identifying them?

Hamas, the entity, is easily identifiable. The individuals that comprise it are hidden in both identity and location.

The analogy between this situation and WWII is so unconvincing on so many levels beyond elimination of Jews that its invocation serms more like a desperate attempt to obscure the lack of a real argument than anything else.

If you could please point out previously where you noted what steps Israel could do to defend themselves, free the hostages and eliminate Hamas as being an existential threat to Israel's and Jews' existence without the calls of genocide, disproportionate response, war crimes etc. .
That would be most convenient

It is not possible to eliminate Hamas as an “ existential threat” ( assuming it has ever or will ever have that capability), I haven’t called IDF campaign genocidal. I don’t believe in the category of war crime ad useful or necessarily representing an agreed upon set of laws.

All of which would be clear to someone who carefully read this thread.

But it doesn't have to be an existential threat to justify taking them out.

I agree. But IMO it does in order to justify taking out Gazan civilians and hindering humanitarian aid. You are acting like Gazan civilian life doesn't matter.

You're acting like Jews don't matter.

No, I'm not. But please peddle that bs passive aggressive accusations of antisemitism somewhere else.

Gaza after the war is going to be a worse shithole than it was before. And it will stay that way for a long time regardless who are the overlords or overseers. The only way it will clear up fast is if the ultra-right in Israel gets its way and finishes the ethnic cleansing they have been clamoring for.

 

[Tigers!]

Agreed.

The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.



Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.

When you work out how to get Hamas to agree to that then let us all know. And without causing civilian casualties.

Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.

The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.

 

[Arctish]

Agreed.

The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.



Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.

When you work out how to get Hamas to agree to that then let us all know. And without causing civilian casualties.

Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.

The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.

Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.

Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.

We don't disagree on that point. Apparently we disagree on what should be done in Gaza to the Gazans.

I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?

 

[Tigers!]

Agreed.

The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.



Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.

When you work out how to get Hamas to agree to that then let us all know. And without causing civilian casualties.

Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.

The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.

Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.

Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.

We don't disagree on that point. Apparently we disagree on what should be done in Gaza to the Gazans.

I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?

Of course

 

[JohnG]

I honestly think that both sides will simply get pushed further to the extremes and it will just keep getting worse.

I think so too. Israel has been drifting right since the mid-90s. They've lost the plot. I also don't believe Palestine can form a peaceful coalition either. Even the Palestinians that don't support Hamas still want violence against Jews.

I feel really bad for the sensible ones, both Palestinian and Jew alike who are, and have been for a long time, fighting for a peaceful co-existence.

 

[Arctish]

Agreed.

The economic revival of Gaza will have to be managed with care. But the first challenge isn't "how shall it be managed?" The first challenge is getting the racist bigots to agree to let it happen for the benefit of the Gazans.



Any plans for the future of Gaza that includes screwing over the Gazans isn't a plan for peace.

When you work out how to get Hamas to agree to that then let us all know. And without causing civilian casualties.

Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.

The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.

Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.

Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.

We don't disagree on that point. Apparently we disagree on what should be done in Gaza to the Gazans.

I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?

Of course

Of course, what?

Of course you think otherwise, or of course prosperous Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity by allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power, therefore plans for Gaza after the war should ensure prosperity for the Gazans?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I agree. But IMO it does in order to justify taking out Gazan civilians and hindering humanitarian aid. You are acting like Gazan civilian life doesn't matter.

Hindering aid? You mean the aid that's piling up inside Gaza because Hamas isn't allowing anyone to pick it up? Conveniently omitted from UN reports of how much aid is arriving.

You're acting like Jews don't matter.

No, I'm not. But please peddle that bs passive aggressive accusations of antisemitism somewhere else.

Your solution to everything is to ignore dead Jews.

Gaza after the war is going to be a worse shithole than it was before. And it will stay that way for a long time regardless who are the overlords or overseers. The only way it will clear up fast is if the ultra-right in Israel gets its way and finishes the ethnic cleansing they have been clamoring for.

Hamas wants it to be a shithole, it's going to be a shithole. I don't think anybody has the power to change that other than by forcing Iran to quit supporting terror. The nuts aren't going to get the ethnic cleansing they want.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas will not willingly give up the power and influence they currently hold. It must be taken from them. Only Israel is prepared to do that. And yes the innocent are suffering. See point above.

The Nazis were not allowed to have any influence or say in post WW2 Germany. Hamas need to be treated the same after this conflict is over.

That's not going to happen because their budget and industrial base will be untouched at the end of the war.

 

[Politesse]

They bombed a refugee camp, today. 45 dead, hundreds wounded, mostly children. There will be no "after the war".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.

He's not moving the goalposts. He's just not accepting your false ideas of how things are.

Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.

At the ballot box?? Hamas would win.

And, yes, you say it again and again and again--but never show that your ideas are connected with the actual situation.

I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?

And you're still falling for the fundamental fallacy that what is happening in Gaza has anything to do with Israel's past actions. Until you accept that Iran is the driving force you'll never understand what's going on.

 

[laughing dog]

I agree. But IMO it does in order to justify taking out Gazan civilians and hindering humanitarian aid. You are acting like Gazan civilian life doesn't matter.

Hindering aid? You mean the aid that's piling up inside Gaza because Hamas isn't allowing anyone to pick it up? Conveniently omitted from UN reports of how much aid is arriving.

No, I don’t.

Your solution to everything is to ignore dead Jews.

Repetition of a false accusations doesn’t make it truer. But it does make you look more desperate and less tethered to reality.

Hamas wants it to be a shithole, it's going to be a shithole. I don't think anybody has the power to change that other than by forcing Iran to quit supporting terror. The nuts aren't going to get the ethnic cleansing they want.

So, Israel is helping Hamas achieve its goal of making Gaza even shittier. Of course, a shittier Gaza is a more effective breeding ground for terrorists. So it would seem that your solution of inflicting more death and destruction in Gaza is going to end up with more dead Israelis.

 

[Derec]

They bombed a refugee camp, today.

No, they bombed a site where 2 senior Hamas operatives were located. Unfortunately, there was a fire that spread to the displacement camp.

45 dead, hundreds wounded, mostly children.

No, it was not "mostly children". 23 out of 45 (a bare majority) were identified by Hamas as "women, children and elderly". That means that 22/45, almost half, were non-elderly adult men. That is more than twice their share of the population, suggesting that among the dead more than those two senior operatives were terrorists. Otherwise, one would expect the demographics of fatalities to follow the population demographics more closely.

There will be no "after the war".

At some point, this war will be over. The point is, if Hamas stays in power, the next one will happen sooner rather than later.

 

[Arctish]

Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.

He's not moving the goalposts. He's just not accepting your false ideas of how things are.

The goalposts are moved every time a new bar is set. Most recently they moved when Tigers! said to get back to him when I had worked out a solution that did not involve civilian casualties. It was a non sequitur masquerading as a response to my point that the economic recovery of Gaza had to be for the benefit of the Gazans, because screwing them over yet again would be recreating the conditions that allow extremist political parties like Hamas and Nazis to come to power.

Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.

At the ballot box?? Hamas would win.

And, yes, you say it again and again and again--but never show that your ideas are connected with the actual situation.

I say Hamas must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box.

Do you disagree? If so, please explain what you think the actual situation is.

If not, then what's the point of your response here? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?

And you're still falling for the fundamental fallacy that what is happening in Gaza has anything to do with Israel's past actions. Until you accept that Iran is the driving force you'll never understand what's going on.

In your opinion Iran is the driving force. Okay, that's what you think.

This discussion is about the future of Gaza. Earlier in this thread Tigers! compared Hamas to the Nazi Party in Germany. I agreed the comparison was apt. I said we should consider:

1. how they came to power

2. how they were able to convince their followers to commit blatant injustices and atrocities, and the rest of society to ignore or deny what was happening

3. how the Nazis were, and Hamas can be, kept from returning to power after their defeat.

We are currently discussing the economic conditions that allow extremist parties to come to power, and how important it is to not recreate them in Gaza. Or at least that's what I'm discussing. I really don't know what point you're trying to make.

 

[Tigers!]

Please stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying.

He's not moving the goalposts. He's just not accepting your false ideas of how things are.

The goalposts are moved every time a new bar is set. Most recently they moved when Tigers! said to get back to him when I had worked out a solution that did not involve civilian casualties. It was a non sequitur masquerading as a response to my point that the economic recovery of Gaza had to be for the benefit of the Gazans, because screwing them over yet again would be recreating the conditions that allow extremist political parties like Hamas and Nazis to come to power.

Yes, the Nazis weren't allowed to return to political power after WW2. Hamas needs to be treated the same after this conflict is over. They must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. They must lose the power and influence they currently hold and never regain it, as I have said again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in this thread and others over the past 7 months.

At the ballot box?? Hamas would win.

And, yes, you say it again and again and again--but never show that your ideas are connected with the actual situation.

I say Hamas must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box.

I am glad that you have stated this. What do you think "defeated on the ground" really means in practical terms? Israel is trying to do this and you have made it clear that you are are not happy/pleased/approve of Israel's actions.
If you do not like Israel's approach then please tell us how Hamas can be defeated on the ground in other ways.
I suspect that Hamas' defeat on the ground will need to precede defeat at the ballot box.

Do you disagree? If so, please explain what you think the actual situation is.

If not, then what's the point of your response here? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

I believe that if the Gazans are screwed over again, then another radical political party will be empowered and eventually attack those the Gazans think are benefitting from their suffering. If, on the other hand, Gaza is rebuilt as Germany was after WW2, and the Gazans prosper as the Germans did, then IMO the Gazans will be unwilling to risk their prosperity be allowing radicals like Hamas to return to power. Do you think otherwise?

And you're still falling for the fundamental fallacy that what is happening in Gaza has anything to do with Israel's past actions. Until you accept that Iran is the driving force you'll never understand what's going on.

In your opinion Iran is the driving force. Okay, that's what you think.

This discussion is about the future of Gaza. Earlier in this thread Tigers! compared Hamas to the Nazi Party in Germany. I agreed the comparison was apt. I said we should consider:

1. how they came to power

Yes

2. how they were able to convince their followers to commit blatant injustices and atrocities, and the rest of society to ignore or deny what was happening

Yes

3. how the Nazis were, and Hamas can be, kept from returning to power after their defeat.

See above. At the moment this is the crux of the matter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, it was not "mostly children". 23 out of 45 (a bare majority) were identified by Hamas as "women, children and elderly". That means that 22/45, almost half, were non-elderly adult men. That is more than twice their share of the population, suggesting that among the dead more than those two senior operatives were terrorists. Otherwise, one would expect the demographics of fatalities to follow the population demographics more closely.

Actually, what we have seen suggests that most of the dead were civilians--but that it was due to secondaries. Israel nailed a jeep, the jeep was carrying stuff that went boom, that threw shrapnel that hit fuel.

However, I would allocate all the fire deaths to Hamas, not Israel. Had they not had weapons around civilians the civilians would not have died.