Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[ZiprHead]

Of course no location is given but "safe zone" is enough--the IDF wasn't within sniper range of any part of the safe zone.

How do you know this?

 

[Shadowy Man]

I also see repeated blaming Israel for acts that almost certainly are Hamas deliberately killing civilians.

An honest question: can you point to an example?

Look for anything that says "IDF snipers".

So I googled "IDF snipers" and here's a list of what comes up:

1 - Pope speaks out after IDF sniper kills two women inside Gaza church.[1]. Presumably, you believe that shooting women in a church must be acceptable collateral damage in the war to eliminate Hamas.
2 - Israeli snipers target sheep in Gaza [2]. Presumably, killing sheep in Gaza helps eliminate Hamas.
3 - IDF release footage showing sniper killing Hamas operatives [3]. Ok, now we are getting somewhere, but this is still about IDF killing Hamas, not Hamas killing Gazan civilians.
4 - '42 knees in one day': Israeli snipers open up about shooting Gaza protestors [4]. I guess we are to presume that those "protestors" are Hamas operatives?

​

Anyway, that's just the first four items that come up. Nothing yet about Hamas deliberately killing Gazan civilians and blaming it on IDF. I'll just have to keep searching, unless you can be more specific on where to point me.

 

[laughing dog]

I also see repeated blaming Israel for acts that almost certainly are Hamas deliberately killing civilians.

An honest question: can you point to an example?

Look for anything that says "IDF snipers".

I think I have already posted this one:

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-23/moment-civilian-brandishing-white-flag-in-gaza-safe-zone-is-shot-dead

Of course no location is given but "safe zone" is enough--the IDF wasn't within sniper range of any part of the safe zone.

And note: "volley of shots". Snipers do not shoot volleys of shots. The shooter must be considerably closer.

What rot. If there is no location, it is not possible whether a particular shooter was or was not. Nor is the “volley of shots” description necessarily indicative of anything. There coukd of been multiple shooters or people responding with shots. Finally, “sniper” may refer to an unseen shooter, not some trained sniper.

I am not saying the shooter was with the IDF or some terrorist group, but your dismissal is long on assumption and short on evidence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas' rotten offer of "ceasefire":
Hamas proposes 3-stage 135-day truce and hostage deal, leading to war’s end – reports

They want a total Israeli withdrawal and release of 1500 terrorist prisoners, including 500 serving life sentences.

It's worse than that.

(hope this works--it's a Google translation, good enough for my point)

وثيقة | النص الحرفي لرد حماس على مقترح باريس: تبادل أسرى وانسحاب إسرائيل الكامل من غزة

أفادت وثيقة لنص رد حركة حماس على الاتفاق الإطاري الذي توصل إليها الوسطاء في اجتماع مع الجانب الإسرائيلي في باريس، مطلع الأسبوع الماضي، أن الحركة اقترحت خطة لوقف إطلاق النار مع إسرائيل من ثلاث مراحل يتم خلالها تبادل الأسرى.

www-arab48-com.translate.goog

1) Note that there are a bunch of things Israel is to provide. No mention of payment, though.

2) "Stopping the incursions and aggression of Israeli settlers against Al-Aqsa Mosque"--except there is no such aggression. The site is holy to both religions. It's simply Jews visiting a Jewish holy site.

3) "Ensuring the opening of all crossings with the Gaza Strip, the return of trade, and allowing the free movement of people and goods without obstacles" -- In other words, Israel can't enforce it's own borders, they must freely allow terrorists in.

4) "Lifting any Israeli restrictions on the movement of passengers, sick and wounded through the Rafah crossing". In other words, Hamas can freely come and go.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I know they are a terrorist organization. I am not doubting that. I just wanted Loren to back up his statement that Israel has been blamed for acts that are "almost certainly Hamas deliberately killing civilians". I have googled this some and found some close examples, such as a hospital being hit, which "Hamas blamed an Israeli airstrike, while the Israeli military blamed a rocket misfired by other Palestinian militants."[1] But that isn't quite what he said, in that it wasn't claimed to be deliberate nor by Hamas, but "other Palestinian militants". In another link, the Anti-Defamation League accuses Hamas of essentially killing its own civilians by utilizing them as human shields.[2]. But in those cases, they are still being killed by the IDF, just being sacrificed by Hamas.

I had already provided examples earlier in this thread.

Loren made an explicit allegation and I'm just curious to see it backed up. Hamas deliberately killing civilians that it is blaming on Israel. Do you or he have an example, or will I just have to keep plowing through google? If you know it to be true, you must have learned it somewhere, so it should be easy for you to help guide me to a story about it. That's all I ask.

No, you are ignoring the fact that I already backed it up.

It's not very collegial to make an allegation then when someone honestly acts for an example to retort "you should just believe me, and if you don't know it's your own fault for not googling hard enough for it." I'm not trying to be an adversary here.

But it's not very collegial to keep demanding evidence that has already been provided.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Viable approach to what? Netanyahu's absolute victory? He doesn't even know what that would look like. The man is flailing about and seemingly unable to come up with any viable solution other than to keep killing people. He should negotiate a serious cessation of hostilities that would involve prisoner/hostage exchanges, but nothing can be achieved unless he shows some willingness to sit down and talk with Hamas and its allies. Diplomacy is the only way this mess can be resolved in the end. There is no longer any justification for continuing the violence.

1) We have already seen how insane the Hamas position is.

2) Why should there be any release of prisoners from Israel? That's just asking for a repeat of 10/7.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...
I also see repeated blaming Israel for acts that almost certainly are Hamas deliberately killing civilians.

An honest question: can you point to an example?

Look for anything that says "IDF snipers".

Loren, you have no response to Shadowy Man's request. Anyone can Google "IDF Snipers", but that does not turn up examples of Israelis being blamed for acts in which Hamas almost certainly did the killing. You are making the claim, so you are the one who should back it up. Surely, you can find some evidence for it, if you didn't just make it up out of thin air.

You responded before I edited in an example.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I also see repeated blaming Israel for acts that almost certainly are Hamas deliberately killing civilians.

An honest question: can you point to an example?

Look for anything that says "IDF snipers".

I think I have already posted this one:

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-23/moment-civilian-brandishing-white-flag-in-gaza-safe-zone-is-shot-dead

Of course no location is given but "safe zone" is enough--the IDF wasn't within sniper range of any part of the safe zone.

And note: "volley of shots". Snipers do not shoot volleys of shots. The shooter must be considerably closer.

I read this article and it's inconclusive as to whether it was "Hamas deliberately killing civilians and blaming it on IDF". It's certainly possible, and the IDF denies knowledge of the incident. But it is difficult to know if it was Hamas and if it was deliberate, at least from the information provided within the article you linked.

Of course you can't--no way a reporter in Gaza would dare tell the truth.

Ignore the IDF denies bit, just look at a map. Where is the safe area, where were the battle lines. The only people in range were Hamas. Nor were there any IDF forces in the area to be shooting at, this wasn't a miss from other combat. It has to have been deliberate. Not to mention that it's far too convenient. Someone gets killed with a camera rolling and you think it wasn't done for the camera??

 

[Shadowy Man]

I know they are a terrorist organization. I am not doubting that. I just wanted Loren to back up his statement that Israel has been blamed for acts that are "almost certainly Hamas deliberately killing civilians". I have googled this some and found some close examples, such as a hospital being hit, which "Hamas blamed an Israeli airstrike, while the Israeli military blamed a rocket misfired by other Palestinian militants."[1] But that isn't quite what he said, in that it wasn't claimed to be deliberate nor by Hamas, but "other Palestinian militants". In another link, the Anti-Defamation League accuses Hamas of essentially killing its own civilians by utilizing them as human shields.[2]. But in those cases, they are still being killed by the IDF, just being sacrificed by Hamas.

I had already provided examples earlier in this thread.

Ok, then could you be so kind as to point to a post number. It's a long thread. Thanks!

 

[Shadowy Man]

But it's not very collegial to keep demanding evidence that has already been provided.

"Demanding" is a strong word here. It's collegial to understand that not everyone has necessarily read every single post on this thread.

 

[ZiprHead]

"Stopping the incursions and aggression of Israeli settlers against Al-Aqsa Mosque"--except there is no such aggression. The site is holy to both religions. It's simply Jews visiting a Jewish holy site.

Israeli settlers storm Al-Aqsa Mosque complex on fifth day of Sukkot

Israeli settlers storm complex in groups and attempt to perform ‘Talmudic rituals’, according to a Waqf official.

www.aljazeera.com

Dozens of Israeli settlers have forced their way into the flashpoint Al-Aqsa Mosque complex in occupied East Jerusalem to mark the fifth day of Sukkot, according to the Islamic Waqf Department.

Since Sunday, thousands of settlers have been carrying out provocative tours of the mosque complex following calls by ultranationalist Jewish groups.

 

[laughing dog]

"Demanding" is a strong word here. It's collegial to understand that not everyone has necessarily read every single post on this thread.

Or even the post they wrote or the one to which they respond!!!!

 

[lpetrich]

AOC says Biden could be doing 'more' to ‘advance’ Democrats’ vision in 2024: Full interview - YouTube on Meet the Press
Gets to the Israel-Hamas war at 6:50. She shows that she has no love for Hamas, and at 8:30, she got into accusations of genocide, like President Biden as "Genocide Joe".

She said that the Israeli attacks have done mass murder and displacement of large numbers of people, and that the International Court of Justice has said that Israel has a responsibility to keep genocide from happening. AOC's interviewer noted that that court is still determining whether or not Israel's actions are genocide, something AOC herself conceded. But she noted that "genocide" is now often used, and she says that she would not want to banish from public discourse anyone who suspects Israel of genocide. She then stated that the Netanyahu gov't has lost public support.

AOC seems like she wouldn't call Israel's actions outright genocide, even if they are very horrible actions. Some online left-wingers called her a sellout for that, but I think that she is trying to be careful.

 

[lpetrich]

UNRWA loses funding after charges that some employees took part in Hamas attack : NPR

The U.N. says it's trying to be proactive after Israel handed over a dossier accusing 12 U.N. employees of direct involvement in the Hamas attack that sparked the latest war. Dozens more are alleged to be affiliated with Hamas. Some of these UNRWA employees are accused of moving hostages and weapons, and some were in Israel the day of the attack. All have been either fired, suspended or killed in the conflict. U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric says the Secretary-General was horrified by the accusations.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "Cutting off support ..." / X

Cutting off support to @UNRWA - the primary source of humanitarian aid to 2 million+ Gazans - is unacceptable.

Among an organization of 13,000 UN aid workers, risking the starvation of millions over grave allegations of 12 is indefensible.

The US should restore aid immediately.

Mark Pocan on X: "I agree with @AOC. ..." / X

I agree with @AOC. 12 workers have been fired for possible involvement out of 13,000 employees.

And @UNRWA feeds 1.2 million people a day, as well as helps distribute aid now to all Palestinians in need.

Aid needs to be restored now to help the displaced millions in Gaza.

Israel Wants U.N. Agency It Links to Oct. 7 Attack Scrapped, But Not Yet - WSJ - "Israeli delegation told U.S. and U.N. officials it wanted Unrwa to continue providing aid in Gaza in the short term"

 

[lpetrich]

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "Since October 7th, ..." / X

Since October 7th, 27,478 Palestinians have been killed. 70% are women and children. 136 hostages remain unrescued. Most Gazans can’t access a hospital.

That’s not war. It’s slaughter. Americans cannot afford another $17 billion on unconditional violence that risks regional war.

with video in her making that speech. Also,
Today the House voted … | Instagram

Today the House voted on sending an additional $17 billion blank check in military aid to the Netanyahu government with no conditions, and no humanitarian assistance — but this time, it failed.

27,478 Palestinians have been killed in the last 122 days. 70% are women and children.

That’s not war — it’s slaughter. Yet despite that, the Israeli government is nowhere close to their stated objective of eliminating Hamas.

We can do better than this. It is keeping no one safe.

 

[lpetrich]

Mouin Rabbani on X: "Even Israel doesn't fall for Israeli propaganda. That leaves only US and EU as faithful customers" / X
notes
Yuval Abraham יובל אברהם on X: "Israeli intelligence …" / X

Israeli intelligence secretly surveilled officials in Gaza’s Health Ministry to check if their data on the number of civilians killed in Gaza is 'reliable', Israeli intelligence sources told us.

The army found the numbers are reliable and now regularly uses them internally in intelligence briefings.

According to two sources, Israeli intelligence has no good independent measure of the total number of civilians the army killed in Gaza, making the Health Ministry's data their main source of information.

One reason for this is that officers conducted hundreds of AI-directed assassination strikes against suspected low-level Hamas operatives, usually by destroying entire homes and killing entire families – a practice we previously termed a 'mass assassination factory’. There was often no bomb damage assessment (BDA) for these strikes, meaning there was no check on who and how many civilians were killed. This routine post-strike check was skipped to 'save time'.

'I don’t know how many people I killed as collateral damage. We only check that information for senior Hamas targets,' one source said. 'In other cases I didn’t care. I immediately moved on to the next target. The focus was on creating as many targets as quickly as possible. That’s why I trust the Health Ministry in Gaza more than the IDF for these statistics. The army just doesn’t have the information.'

Why might they consider Gaza's Health Ministry a reliable source?

Ben Goren on X: "@MouinRabbani The contrast between Israeli media and UK media is stark. Israelis have no fear of saying what they think right or wrong. In the UK, from the guests to the hosts to the producers, everyone is worried about getting a phone call or a letter from the Embassy or one of its outriders." / X

Aha, the "because a guy on the Internet said so" -argument.

Yuval Abraham יובל אברהם on X: "The full investigation in Hebrew. (link)" / X

הצבא בדק ומצא שדיווחי ההרוגים במשרד הבריאות בעזה – מהימנים - שיחה מקומית
Google Translate: The army checked and found that the reports of the dead at the Ministry of Health in Gaza are reliable - Local Conversation
Bing Translator: The military checked and found that the reports of fatalities at the Gaza Ministry of Health were credible - Local Call

הצבא בדק ומצא שדיווחי ההרוגים במשרד הבריאות בעזה – מהימנים
מקורות במודיעין סיפרו ל"שיחה מקומית" כי בצבא עקבו אחרי בכירים במשרד הבריאות בעזה והגיעו למסקנה שדיווחיהם על ההרוגים אמינים. הנתונים משמשים את הצבא בהערכות מצב לגבי עזה. לידיעת הנשיא ביידן
מאת: יובל אברהם 24.1.2024

Google Translate: The army checked and found that the reports of the dead in the Ministry of Health in Gaza are reliable.

Sources in the intelligence told the "local conversation" that the army followed senior officials in the health ministry in Gaza and came to the conclusion that their reports about the dead were reliable. The data is used by the army in assessing the situation regarding Gaza. For the information of President Biden.

By: Yuval Avraham 1/24/2024

Bing Translator: The military checked and found that the reports of fatalities at the Ministry of Health in Gaza were reliable.

Intelligence sources told Local Conversation that the military followed senior Health Ministry officials in Gaza and concluded that their reports on the fatalities were credible. The figures are used by the military in assessing the situation regarding Gaza. For President Biden's Information.

By: Yuval Avraham 24.1.2024

 

[lpetrich]

What we are seeing here goes far beyond  Lex talionis (disambiguation) - "lēx tāliōnis" is Latin for "law of retaliation" - the legal principle of exact retaliation.

The best-known statement of it is  Eye for an Eye (disambiguation) more specifically  Eye for an eye referring to Exodus 21:23–27 in the Bible: (New English Translation)

But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

If a man strikes the eye of his male servant or his female servant so that he destroys it, he will let the servant go free as compensation for the eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his male servant or his female servant, he will let the servant go free as compensation for the tooth.

CSPAN on X: ".@RepRashida: "I oppose Netanyahu's war crimes and want him gone too, but many of my colleagues that continue to tell me that do not want to condition the aid. They give it to a genocidal maniac." (vid link)" / X

(subtitled version)
Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib on X: "If you don’t support Netanyahu, if you are disgusted by the countless lifeless children being pulled out of the rubble, if you actually believe in upholding human rights and international law—vote no on a blank check to Netanyahu's genocide. (vid link)" / X

She also says that many of her colleagues tell her that they don't like Ben Netanyahu. But why do they send US taxpayers' money to him with no conditions? They also tell her that they want a two-state solution. Great, she says, so why don't they put that condition on US aid to Israel? BN has said over and over that he does not want a Palestinian state.

 

[lpetrich]

Rep. Ro Khanna on X: "I will vote no on the $17 billion aid package which is a blank check to Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, and the extreme right-wing government in Israel. (vid link)" / X

Roll Call 38 | Bill Number: H. R. 7217
Feb 06, 2024, 06:50 PM | 118th Congress, 2nd Session
Vote Question: On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Pass
Israel Security Supplemental Appropriations Act
Vote Type: 2/3 Yea-And-Nay
Status: Failed

R: Y 204, N 14, nv 1
D: Y 46, N 168
Ttl: Y 250, N 180, nv 1

The yes votes were 58% of the total, not enough to pass.

Among the Republicans who voted against it were Lauren Boebert, Matt Gaetz, Paul Gosar, and MTG

What did they dislike about that bill? That it does not go far enough? That they wanted to spite the House leadership?

The bill itself: H.R.7217 - 118th Congress (2023-2024): Israel Security Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2024 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

 

[lpetrich]

Bernie Sanders on X: "The Senate is considering a foreign aid supplemental bill that provides $10 billion more in U.S. military aid for the Netanyahu government to continue its horrific war against the Palestinian people. That is unconscionable. I will be voting NO. (pic link)" / X

I will be voting NO on the motion to proceed on the supplemental appropriations bill that the Senate will be voting on today.

Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas's terrorism, but it does not have the right to go to war against the entire Palestinian people. Since this war began over 27,000 Palestinians have been killed and 67,000 wounded - two-thirds of whom are women and children. Over 1.7 million people have been driven from their homes and have no idea as to where they will be in the future. Almost 70% of the housing units in Gaza have been destroyed or damaged. And today, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children are literally starving to death because Netanyahu's right-wing government is preventing desperately needed food and water from getting into Gaza. And, to make this unspeakable situation even worse, this bill even prohibits funding for UNRWA, the major humanitarian aid provider in Gaza.

This bill provides $10 billion dollars more in U.S. military aid for the Netanyahu government to continue its horrific war against the Palestinian people. That is unconscionable. That is why I will be voting NO.

 

[lpetrich]

Some Jews wanted an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth about the Holocaust:
 Nakam

Nakam (Hebrew: נקם, 'revenge') was a paramilitary organisation of about fifty Holocaust survivors who, after 1945, sought revenge for the murder of six million Jews during the Holocaust. Led by Abba Kovner, the group sought to kill six million Germans in a form of indiscriminate revenge, "a nation for a nation".[1] Kovner went to Mandatory Palestine in order to secure large quantities of poison for poisoning water mains to kill large numbers of Germans. His followers infiltrated the water system of Nuremberg. However, Kovner was arrested upon arrival in the British zone of occupied Germany and had to throw the poison overboard.

Following this failure, Nakam turned their attention to "Plan B", targeting German prisoners of war held by the United States military in the American zone. They obtained arsenic locally and infiltrated the bakeries that supplied these prison camps. The conspirators poisoned 3,000 loaves of bread at Konsum-Genossenschaftsbäckerei (Consumer Cooperative Bakery) in Nuremberg, which sickened more than 2,000 German prisoners of war at Langwasser internment camp. However, no known deaths can be attributed to the group. Although Nakam is considered by some to have been a terrorist organisation,[2] German public prosecutors dismissed a case against two of its members in 2000 due to the "unusual circumstances".