Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

On what basis are you determining that their current approach is the most gentle they could take to still achieve their desired goals?

Nobody can come up with one that's better.
The goal is provide security for Israel by causing maximum degradation to Gazan military installations.
Given the circumstances, keeping casualties below 30k seems quite good. If they were after revenge they could carpet bomb the place.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Funny, the Palestinians should have known, but not the Israelis, who actually have active intelligence operations in Gaza.

Why do you think Israelis didn't know?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

On what basis are you determining that their current approach is the most gentle they could take to still achieve their desired goals?

Nobody can come up with one that's better.
The goal is provide security for Israel by causing maximum degradation to Gazan military installations.
Given the circumstances, keeping casualties below 30k seems quite good. If they were after revenge they could carpet bomb the place.
Tom

No, repeated carpet bombing would be genocidal. The current operation is consistent with revenge and other motives.

 

[TomC]

No, repeated carpet bombing would be genocidal. The current operation is consistent with revenge and other motives.

I don't doubt that revenge is an element. It's the other motives that matter. Degrading Gazan ability to launch violent terrorism is one biggy. Who knows, maybe Gazans will realize that Hamas is their real oppressors, not Israel?
I dunno.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Nobody can come up with one that's better that I like.

FTFY

 

[Gospel]

Who knows, maybe Gazans will realize that Hamas is their real oppressors, not Israel?

The ones who voted against Hamas in the election already know.

 

[Gospel]

Degrading Gazan Hamas' ability to launch violent terrorism is one biggy.

I totally agree (with the correction of course).

 

[Shadowy Man]

On what basis are you determining that their current approach is the most gentle they could take to still achieve their desired goals?

Nobody can come up with one that's better.
The goal is provide security for Israel by causing maximum degradation to Gazan military installations.
Given the circumstances, keeping casualties below 30k seems quite good. If they were after revenge they could carpet bomb the place.
Tom

Nobody at all? I understand the goal. And I also understand that innocent casualties are unavoidable in war. But to assume that the current approach is the only possible one that can achieve those goals seems a bit oversimplified.

But, assuming this is indeed the best approach then clearly it is a justified amount of civilian deaths if the Israeli response is justified at all, yes? That’s the implication of what you and others here are saying.

 

[ZiprHead]

Yes, the fanatical Jewish settlers in the West Bank are a problem. But Netanhayu has done a lot more to stop their activities.

Do you have some proof of this because all I've heard is that the IDF defends the settlers while they are stealing land and harassing Palestinians.

 

[Arctish]

Who knows, maybe Gazans will realize that Hamas is their real oppressors, not Israel?

The ones who voted against Hamas in the election already know.

IIrc, Hamas only got 44% of the vote in the election that brought them to power, barely more votes than Fatah, and that was back in the day when Hamas was building hospitals and playgrounds with the funds Israel was passing it under the table in order to make Fatah look bad.

 

[Arctish]

I just went looking for some information on the breakdown of the population in Gaza by age group. Since approximately half of the people living in Gaza in October 2023 hadn't even been born before the election in 2006 and only those 36 years of age and older could have voted, it makes no sense to blame the entire population for those election results.

As of 2023, the number of people in Gaza older than 35 was approx. 465,131*. <link>

Voter turnout for the election was approx. 75%, so about 350,000 people. <link>

And of that 350,000, only 44% voted for Hamas so we're talking about ~150,000 people. <link>

Some posters here are in effect blaming over 2 million people, most of whom are children and teenagers, for the votes cast by 150,000 people 18 years ago.

They are also suggesting that all those people who didn't vote or voted for a different party should have somehow overcome Hamas, which even the IDF struggles to do. I suppose they think all those Gazans should have gone to Ollivander's shop in Diagon Alley when they were 12 and bought magic wands so they could wave them around and shout "Expelliarmus!" and disarm the bad guys.

*Includes people born one year too early to have been eligible voters.

 

[Gospel]

Yes, the fanatical Jewish settlers in the West Bank are a problem. But Netanhayu has done a lot more to stop their activities.

Do you have some proof of this because all I've heard is that the IDF defends the settlers while they are stealing land and harassing Palestinians.

In Zoid's view, the issue of illegal settlements does not exist; Israel is perceived as incapable of wrongdoing. Zoid's perspective holds that all actions taken by Israel are justifiable, citing Hamas as the rationale. All despite the settlements were there well before Hamas.

Some posters here are in effect blaming over 2 million people, most of whom are children and teenagers, for the votes cast by 150,000 people 18 years ago.

None of that matters to them, in their view all Palestinians are Allahu akbar chanting Jew haters, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Gospel]

Yes, the fanatical Jewish settlers in the West Bank are a problem.

Bruh ALL the settlers in the west bank is the problem. None of them are legally there.

 

[steve_bank]

The slow motion ethnic cleansing in the West Bank was documented by the UN I thibn as far back as the 90s.

There has been some reporting on it. Israel condemns and bulldozes Palestiian propety, and they control building permits which are given to Israelis.

In on case Palestinian homes were demolished when an old tunnel that was part of the old temple was found.

A few years back Israel sezed a farm on the Israeli border. When asked by reporters when Netanyahu was in NYC about it I remember him saying 'It was just a small piece of land.'. The rationale is that some Palestinians who have been on land for generations going back centuries may not have formal deeds, therefore they do not own it.

It is either ignorance outright or willful ignorance when media and politicians ignore the context of the violence against Israel. It all started when Jews declared a state of, by, and for Jews and took land to do it. The violence is not unprovoked.

There were plan, agreements, and a process but none of it happened. I don't think the borders of Israel have ever been formally decided, so the border is where Israel says it is.

To me it is all out of control. Iran hit Pakistan, Pakistan hit Iran. A US base is attacked and we bomb a person in Baghdad killing a leader along with innocents. Iraq is a so-vein country.

Biden is pathetic in now criticism Israel all the while pushing more weapons for Israel.

Meanwhile Israel appears to be indiscriminately bombing non combatants. Israel is ordering Pleins out of a city they were told to go to for safety. Gaza makes the VN War seem civilized in retrospect.

Meanwhile the main topic for people is the Superbowl and what Taylor Swift is doing.

 

[TomC]

Some posters here are in effect blaming over 2 million people, most of whom are children and teenagers, for the votes cast by 150,000 people 18 years ago.

I don't recall that. It certainly isn't me.
As I understand, Hamas did legitimately win an election to a 4 year term. But that was 18 years ago. Hamas has been an illegitimate gang of violent theocratic authoritarians for 14 years.
Their depraved indifference to human life has done far more damage to Gazans than Israel.
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

I just went looking for some information on the breakdown of the population in Gaza by age group. Since approximately half of the people living in Gaza in October 2023 hadn't even been born before the election in 2006 and only those 36 years of age and older could have voted, it makes no sense to blame the entire population for those election results.

As of 2023, the number of people in Gaza older than 35 was approx. 465,131*. <link>

Voter turnout for the election was approx. 75%, so about 350,000 people. <link>

And of that 350,000, only 44% voted for Hamas so we're talking about ~150,000 people. <link>

Some posters here are in effect blaming over 2 million people, most of whom are children and teenagers, for the votes cast by 150,000 people 18 years ago.

They are also suggesting that all those people who didn't vote or voted for a different party should have somehow overcome Hamas, which even the IDF struggles to do. I suppose they think all those Gazans should have gone to Ollivander's shop in Diagon Alley when they were 12 and bought magic wands so they could wave them around and shout "Expelliarmus!" and disarm the bad guys.

*Includes people born one year too early to have been eligible voters.

The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad. If there was any chance Hamas wouldn’t win, USA would lean on Abbas to go democratic again.

You are fixating on the stuff that can be measured. And acting as that proves anything. When the information you need is available

 

[laughing dog]

I just went looking for some information on the breakdown of the population in Gaza by age group. Since approximately half of the people living in Gaza in October 2023 hadn't even been born before the election in 2006 and only those 36 years of age and older could have voted, it makes no sense to blame the entire population for those election results.

As of 2023, the number of people in Gaza older than 35 was approx. 465,131*. <link>

Voter turnout for the election was approx. 75%, so about 350,000 people. <link>

And of that 350,000, only 44% voted for Hamas so we're talking about ~150,000 people. <link>

Some posters here are in effect blaming over 2 million people, most of whom are children and teenagers, for the votes cast by 150,000 people 18 years ago.

They are also suggesting that all those people who didn't vote or voted for a different party should have somehow overcome Hamas, which even the IDF struggles to do. I suppose they think all those Gazans should have gone to Ollivander's shop in Diagon Alley when they were 12 and bought magic wands so they could wave them around and shout "Expelliarmus!" and disarm the bad guys.

*Includes people born one year too early to have been eligible voters.

The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad. If there was any chance Hamas wouldn’t win, USA would lean on Abbas to go democratic again.

You are fixating on the stuff that can be measured. And acting as that proves anything. When the information you need is available

LOL - you rubbish what is measured in order to support your unsupported claims.

It should be bleeding obvious to any rational observers that Hamas would hold elections if they thought they win.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I just went looking for some information on the breakdown of the population in Gaza by age group. Since approximately half of the people living in Gaza in October 2023 hadn't even been born before the election in 2006 and only those 36 years of age and older could have voted, it makes no sense to blame the entire population for those election results.

As of 2023, the number of people in Gaza older than 35 was approx. 465,131*. <link>

Voter turnout for the election was approx. 75%, so about 350,000 people. <link>

And of that 350,000, only 44% voted for Hamas so we're talking about ~150,000 people. <link>

Some posters here are in effect blaming over 2 million people, most of whom are children and teenagers, for the votes cast by 150,000 people 18 years ago.

They are also suggesting that all those people who didn't vote or voted for a different party should have somehow overcome Hamas, which even the IDF struggles to do. I suppose they think all those Gazans should have gone to Ollivander's shop in Diagon Alley when they were 12 and bought magic wands so they could wave them around and shout "Expelliarmus!" and disarm the bad guys.

*Includes people born one year too early to have been eligible voters.

The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad. If there was any chance Hamas wouldn’t win, USA would lean on Abbas to go democratic again.

You are fixating on the stuff that can be measured. And acting as that proves anything. When the information you need is available

LOL - you rubbish what is measured in order to support your unsupported claims.

It should be bleeding obvious to any rational observers that Hamas would hold elections if they thought they win.

No, you are ignoring the available evidence and are only willing to accept data that we don't have. Sometimes we just need to work with what we got.

 

[TomC]

LOL - you rubbish what is measured in order to support your unsupported claims.

It should be bleeding obvious to any rational observers that Hamas would hold elections if they thought they win.

The unsupported rubbish claim was from

Some posters here are in effect blaming over 2 million people, most of whom are children and teenagers, for the votes cast by 150,000 people 18 years ago.

And no, it isn't obvious that Hamas would lose an election. They just don't need one.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I just went looking for some information on the breakdown of the population in Gaza by age group. Since approximately half of the people living in Gaza in October 2023 hadn't even been born before the election in 2006 and only those 36 years of age and older could have voted, it makes no sense to blame the entire population for those election results.

As of 2023, the number of people in Gaza older than 35 was approx. 465,131*. <link>

Voter turnout for the election was approx. 75%, so about 350,000 people. <link>

And of that 350,000, only 44% voted for Hamas so we're talking about ~150,000 people. <link>

Some posters here are in effect blaming over 2 million people, most of whom are children and teenagers, for the votes cast by 150,000 people 18 years ago.

They are also suggesting that all those people who didn't vote or voted for a different party should have somehow overcome Hamas, which even the IDF struggles to do. I suppose they think all those Gazans should have gone to Ollivander's shop in Diagon Alley when they were 12 and bought magic wands so they could wave them around and shout "Expelliarmus!" and disarm the bad guys.

*Includes people born one year too early to have been eligible voters.

The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad. If there was any chance Hamas wouldn’t win, USA would lean on Abbas to go democratic again.

You are fixating on the stuff that can be measured. And acting as that proves anything. When the information you need is available

LOL - you rubbish what is measured in order to support your unsupported claims.

It should be bleeding obvious to any rational observers that Hamas would hold elections if they thought they win.

No, you are ignoring the available evidence and are only willing to accept data that we don't have. Sometimes we just need to work with what we got.

Take your own advice. What we have is Hamas’s refusal to have elections. To a disinterested rational observer, that suggests Hamas does not think it would win an election.

Without a rational explanation, your response resembles a bullshit excuse for reason-free assertions.