Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

A barrage of 100s of rockets, including longer range ones reaching as far as Tel Aviv. Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib and the rest of the Squad must be rejoicing.

Squad Derangement Syndrome.

I think his criticism is right on target.

An immediate cease-fire would be heaven for Hamas and would ensure there would be another massacre like this soon. She is in effect calling for more dead Jews.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which party is she recommending to cease fire and de-escalate? Is she referencing both sides or solely the one you'd like to attack her for? When she mentions "lives," is she referring to Israeli & Palestinian civilians or Hamas (as you seem to imply)? I believe we need more context, as the statement can be interpreted in multiple ways. While I understand Israel's reasons for retaliation, I find it challenging to critique individuals advocating for peace in the region. Calling for an end to violence seems far from deranged to me. In fact isn't to end the violence why Israel is retaliating?

I think she's calling for a bilateral cease-fire but that's playing right into Hamas' hand.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, Israel has made lasting peace deals with some Arab countries: Jordan, Egypt, and etc. But no peace is possible with a group that would approve the beheading of babies in front of their mother. Let’s hope these despicable acts were isolated and directed from the top. But these are acts that would make Ted Bundy mad.

Israel has made lasting peace with those countries that aren't receiving money for terror.

And you've been smoking the devil's lettuce if you think this is isolated. This is typical Hamas behavior, just on a larger scale than they have been able to pull off in the past.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israeli tanks about to cross Gaza line stop when someone notes "Wait... don't we need a plan first?!"

I imagine this is actually an issue. I mean, it is all fun and games until you lose a battalion waging a ridiculous battle at a street against poorly trained but well enough armed Palestinians. After 9/11, there was a pause. Then an action. Israel actually needs a plan.

You think Israel doesn't have contingency plans for what to do about something like this?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If peace broke out, they’d be heroes.

But if peace broke out, certain people’s business concerns might suffer. As with all wars, follow the money. Yes, centuries of tribal and religious and cultural conflict make great talking points for propaganda pieces—but follow the money. It’s always the money.

I don't think it is as much about money as it is religious power. There might be cash, but when you look at the likes of al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, Taliban, it is about religious based power.

Hamas is Sunni. Their Iranian paymasters are Shia. If it were religious power that wouldn't happen.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One should fight off Hamas, yes, and I like Israel's Iron Dome. It's essentially defensive. But one should fight off Hamas without killing civilians, even if Hamas uses them as human shields. Imitating Hamas is NOT a good strategy.

If you've got a magic wand that powerful why don't you cure aging?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes. What Hamas did was a horrific, evil attack, but cutting off water, electricity and food to civilians is also horrific. Since when do two wrongs make a right? I don't think anyone knows if there is a solution to what's happening in the mideast, but I don't approve of starving innocent people like Bibi wants to do. IT would be better if Israel took a little time to find a way to go after Hamas specifically, not just try and wipe out all of the Palestinians. The expression, "War is hell" is as true today as it ever was.

I was going to agree with you until this part. Sieges are not considered war crimes.

And Israel has decades of planning and practice in taking out terrorists with as few civilian casualties as possible. They have the world's best track record (far above ours) but Hamas is very good at human shield tactics.

 

[Arctish]

And what evidence does Israel have that being kinder and gentler towards a terrorist organization would be effective? When it is surrounded by countries who literally want it to be obliterated. Not because of anything that has happened in the last 80 years but because they are Jewish.

Why was Israel created?

Sure any of those could have been done. Of course, Israel was founded on lands that had traditionally, historically belonged to Jews.

The land historically belonged to the indigenous peoples of the region, the descendants of the ancient Canaanites, regardless of their religious affiliation.

Jews were only about 10% of the population in Palestine at the beginning of the 20th century. Even with hundreds of thousands of mostly illegal immigrants they were only about 30% of the population when the State of Israel was declared to exist on more than 50% of the land.

The British did not ‘give’ land that was not theirs. The Ottoman Empire abandoned claim to those lands. A jewish homeland was intended to be part of Palestine from the beginning of the mandate, as laid out by the League of Nations following WWI.

The Ottoman Empire did not abandon any claims; it lost a war and lost power in the region. And the League of Nations had no authority to create a new State in Palestine. The people in the various provinces of the former empire wanted to create their own States to govern their own affairs. No one wanted some outside power to force them to accept a government at gunpoint, and they certainly didn't want to be forced out of their homes by armed, militant immigrants.

If someone had a time machine and an army they could prevent much of the conflict by forcing the Zionist immigrants to become part of Palestinian society and work their way up to prosperity, not steal every bit of productive farmland and every commercial enterprise they could get their hands on and force the local population into refugee camps. But we live in the real world where actions have consequences. The consequence of the hostile takeover of most of Palestine by mostly European immigrants, and the explicit racism and religious bigotry that is the foundation of the State of Israel, was war. The consequence of thwarting the establishment of a Palestinian State in a negotiated peace treaty, or securing equal rights and equal treatment for the people of Israel and Palestine regardless of race, ethnicity, and religion, is the ongoing violence and injustice of apartheid, oppression, insurgency, and terrorism.

If we want to ‘give back’ land the British gave to people, you and I would probably end up as next door neighbors in Great Britain.

Or we could use the Alaska Native Land Claims Settlement Act as a template and negotiate a peaceful agreement on land sharing and ownership for all of the United States and its Territories. We could at least try to be fair and work for justice, not against it.

Sure, and that would award Israel to…the Jews. Of course it depends on how far one wants to go back, but if one goes back as far as one can, by most historical scholars reckoning, Israel is sitting pretty much where it first began.

That is Netanyahu's reason for claiming all of the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel. But what he doesn't say is that over the past 2,000 years Jews in the area accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and some Jews and Christians accepted that there is One God and Muhammed is His Prophet, and some folks believe aliens from outer space colonized the Earth and will soon return to Bless the Faithful with rides on Their Holy Comet.

The cleansing of Eretz Israel is bigoted self-serving tribalism based on nothing more than religious woo and European chauvinism. The only path to peace is to set aside all that bullshit about Chosen People and land consecrated to Allah and the Second Coming of Jesus, and to remove proven enemies of a negotiated peace like Netanyahu from positions of authority.

Peace happens when people are treated fairly, justly, and with genuine concern for their well-being. It doesn't happen when bomb and murder them.

The indigenous people of Palestine have human rights, one of which is to live in their homes in peace and security, and not be treated like shit by a better armed group of people who want their stuff.

AFAIK, ancient Jews were indigenous to the Palestinian/Israeli land. I am not an historian but my reading of the history of thst region seems to indicate such.

You are correct: Peace happens when all people are treated fairly and justly and with concern for their well being. Bombs and rockets come from all directions and cross all borders. It is much easier to count only one side’s wrongs and feed grudges than it is to decide that there will be peace.

When have I ever said they weren't?

FFS I've had to highlight that point in bold and color it red so some posters here wouldn't blow right past it and claim I was saying Jews weren't part of the local population for thousands of years.

They were.

Obviously.

But religious affiliation, unlike ancestry, is changeable. Just because someone converted or was born into a family with a different faith doesn't mean they can't claim the area around Jerusalem as their ancestral homeland.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Toni, I can only call the Hamas attack an "atrocity" so many times. I can also only say that this was not "resistance" but "mass murder" so many times. I don't want to have to put my posts in a signature so people don't forget what I've already said repeatedly. It'd get awfully long and hard to follow.

Except you keep trying to excuse it.

Regarding what I'm suggesting, it is that storing a lot of fertilizer in a warehouse and just let it set there contributed directly to the explosion. I'm saying that the dehumanization of the Palestinians by the far-right government in Israel is one of the direct causes of this atrocity. I'm saying that enforcing an immoral quasi-apartheid system for Israel's benefit didn't work at protecting Israel. I'm saying the far-right-wing failed to protect the Israeli population with their ridiculous far right-wing solutions that created a lot of suffering and breeding ground for extremism.

This is Gaza, not the West Bank. Israel hasn't occupied it for ages. This massacre happened because that's what their paymasters want. Israel only caused it by existing.

Regarding the term insurgency, I use that as a term to describe what is generally an asymmetric war. You have the Israeli military fighting against loosely tied, lesser armed fighters who are among the population, and utterly impossible to tell the difference from. Battling insurgencies is very bloody and in the cities, near impossible. If anyone can actually bother to remember less than 20 years ago when the W Admin's military was trying to brute force it, and it wasn't working. It wasn't until the communities were successfully sold on the intervention that progress began. Does anyone here think many people in Gaza will be eager to help Israeli soldiers with the water/electricity/all services off, with buildings falling everywhere, one to three degrees of separation of knowing people that died, whether civilian or militant?

And again, you're trying to excuse it. It's quite possible for an insurgency to target legitimate targets. For example, the Resistance in WWII. Hamas does not go after legitimate targets, they go after civilians.

 

[lpetrich]

Semafor on X: " SCOOP: MSNBC has quietly taken three of its Muslim broadcasters out of the anchor’s chair since Hamas’s attack on Israel last Saturday amid America’s wave of sympathy for Israeli terror victims, @maxwelltani reports. (link)" / X
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "In a time of overwhelming developments in the Middle East, the public needs comprehensive coverage with diverse, experienced perspectives.
The removal of Muslim anchors during such a sensitive time is highly concerning. We must not repeat the mistakes of post-9/11 fervor." / X

Al Jazeera English on X: "At least 2,215 Palestinians, including 724 children, have been killed and 8,714 others wounded in Israel's bombardment, the health ministry in the Gaza Strip has updated.
LIVE updates: (links)" / X
then
Mehdi Hasan on X: "724 kids. Beyond horrific." / X

Almost as many people as Hamas killed on October 7.

Jahana Hayes on X: "Statement on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza (pic link)" / X

"Two things can be true, while I condemn the horrific attack by Hamas, I am deeply concerned about the unfolding humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the assault on innocent Palestinians. As this war continues, international humanitarian laws must be observed and innocent civilians must be protected. As we push back against evil, let us not become that which we deplore.

I agree. I think that Hamas is well worth fighting off. The Iron Dome is good, and I confess that I find it hard to feel sorry for the Hamas terrorists who were killed in last week's raid. But killing lots of civilians is imitating Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

BLM Chicago backs Palestine after Hamas terrorist invasion of Israel

CHICAGO (TND) — Black Lives Matter Chicago publicly asserted its support for Palestine Tuesday in the wake of the terrorist invasion of Israel, sparking outrage on social media.

The organization shared a photo to X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, Tuesday of a Palestinian flag tied to a paraglider. The photo bears the words "I stand with Palestine."

"That is all that is it!" BLM Chicago wrote alongside the photo.

BLM Chicago expanded on the sentiments on its Facebook account, sharing photos of "conversation piecers" surrounding the Israel-Hamas war. The "conversation piecers" are largely in support of Palestine, with one defining terrorist organization Hamas as "a political party in Gaza, who were also kind of started by Israel."

Another falsely claims that the "few" Israeli hostages taken by Hamas terrorists are to blame for keeping Palestinians "hostage" in Gaza. At least 150 hostages were taken by Hamas in its invasion of Israel, and many of them, including those attending a music festival, have no link to land disputes between Palestinians and Israelis.

I've never been a fan of BLM, but now even less so.

So you believe that to stand for Palestine necessarily means standing for Hamas?

You missed the dog whistle. It was explicitly supporting the massacre.

 

[lpetrich]

The Lead CNN on X: "Does Israel hold Gazans responsible for Hamas' brutality? Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations @giladerdan1 discusses with CNN's @jaketapper (vid link)" / X
then
Maxwell Alejandro Frost on X: "When the Ambassador begins to justify the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza by saying that they voted for Hamas, the video shows video of children walking. There hasn’t been an election in Gaza since 2006 and half of Gaza are children who cannot vote + weren’t even alive in 06’." / X
The Gaza Strip hasn't had elections since 2006, while the West Bank has had several. So if I was in the Israeli leadership, I'd recommend befriending the Palestinian Authority and trying to buy off Palestinians. Try to get them land and water and support them getting solar panels.

 

[Arctish]

Unprovoked in that it's not a response to Israeli acts. Israel doesn't restrict Gazan exports except in that they'll close the border crossings when Hamas attacks them. When you hear about Gazans not being able to export look to the real cause: Hamas.

Are you ignoring the cross border fire and increasing violence in Israel and the Occupied Territories from late Spring to early Autumn, or are you simply unaware of it and therefore think it didn't happen?

Hamas decides when there will be violence. Israel simply responds when there is.

And just how long ago must something have happened to no longer qualify as provocation? Were the rocket attacks against Israel in May a provocation strong enough to justify retaliation by Israel now, six months later? If so, then everything Israelis did during that same time period is recent enough, too.

This has obviously been planned for a long time. They simply wait for a proper pretext (or in this case, probably didn't even try--note the importance of the date) and launch their pre-planned actions in "response" to something that Israel supposedly did (often the claim itself is false.)

If Derec had said the attack was unprecedented, I doubt anyone would have questioned his statement. If he'd said it was unexpected, there probably would have been some discussion about always expecting violence in the Middle East. But calling it unprovoked is absurd. There has been near constant provocation between the Israelis and Palestinians for decades.

Yeah, but nothing on this scale. This is more than Hamas has done in their previous existence combined.

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Were you unaware of the most recent instances of cross-border fire?

Sounds very much like victim-blaming. Ever pay attention? Hamas sends rockets, Israel hits Hamas. Hamas sends suicide attackers, Israel sometimes hits Hamas. It's just you rarely hear about what Hamas does because it's so routine that it's not news.

It sounds that way to you because you only see Jews as victims.

I understand that a lot of people are feeling shock and grief right now, and that the first stages of grief are anger and denial. But our discussion has been going on for over 20 years, and I still hold to the position I took all those years ago: racism, religious bigotry, and blatant opportunism is the driving force in this conflict. The sooner the racists, bigots, and shameless opportunists are sidelined and a more just and fair, even-handed approach is implemented, the better.

Hamas is as evil as the Irgun. It has massacred civilians and is using terror tactics to achieve its goals. It must be stopped.

Fatah has forsworn terrorism and violence to achieve its goals. If you want the violence end then advocate for rewarding Fatah with actual, genuine concessions, not just more exploitation and theft of resources.

How much time must elapse before something can no longer be considered a cause for a certain course of action?

Operation Shield and Arrow happened on May 9th. Operation Revenge of the Free happened on May 10th. Do you believe that exchange of fire is part of the provocations that led to the current outbreak of open fighting, or do you think it doesn't qualify since it took place six months ago?

I think the current situation is because Iran wanted to disrupt the peace talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

I think Hamas doesn't give an actual fuck about what Iran wants.

 

[Arctish]

You can debate agreements and the British Mandate, bit the bottom line is the Jews armed themselves, tactically illegally, and declared a state. They seized prime business and agriculture prophetess from Arabs without compensation.

The Jews declared a state on the land that was to be allocated to them but which the partition was being stalled.

In the first war Arabs recruited Palest inns to fight against Israel, and when they lost the war they abandoned them. Israel denied right of return for Arabs who had lived in Isreali borders.

Note that most of them were refused return because they would not vow to continue the violence. In other words, traitors to the nation they were in.

After the followig wars which Arabs lost, Plaestinians had no options but terrorism. If Israel had been more magnamous they might have avoided the terrorism.

1) It started with insurgency, not terrorism. Terrorism came after 1973 when it became apparent that destroying Israel on the battlefield was impossible.

2) Israel has never had a meaningful ability to avoid the conflict. There's enough money to fund fighting Israel that there will be fighting.

3) The plight of the Palestinians is mostly due to their own leaders. At one point they were the most prosperous non-oil Arab nation in the world--and blew away 2/3 of their GDP by picking a fight with Israel.

The Arabs did not agree to give up the land they lived on to create Israel.

Jews armed themselves to create a homeland. Over here freedom fighters. Arabs armed themselves to take it back are called terrorists. Today their homes are still being taken by force.

Keep in mind by today's standrds the Jews in Palastine used terroist tactics.

No. 1948 was not terrorism on either side. It only turned substantially to terror when the Arabs realized that Israel couldn't be defeated on the battlefield.

It is usually easy to tell apart terrorism and freedom fighters--look at their targets. Military/government - freedom fighters. Civilian - terrorist. Note that the word "terrorism" often gets applied by politicians to things that aren't terrorism. Mostly this happens when a terrorist group attacks a legitimate target.

All these years of arguing about Israel and you have learned nothing.

Menachim Begin was a terrorist.

Not just called a terrorist. He really really was one, for real. He rose through the ranks of the Irgun at the time it was bombing markets and shooting random civilians, and had become its leader by the time the massacre at Deir Yassin took place.

You should read up about him sometime. And then read about the Stern Gang and Yitzhak Shamir.

 

[lpetrich]

Bel Trew on X: "Urgent: Water has now run out in Gaza according to the UN “It has become a matter of life and death”. 2 million people at risk. Statement below (pic link)" / X

AMMAN,

Across the Gaza Strip, more than 2 million people are at risk as water runs out.

"It has become a matter of life and death. It is a must; fuel needs to be delivered now into Gaza to make water available for 2 million people," said Philippe Lazzarini, UNRWA Commissioner-General. No humanitarian supplies have been allowed into Gaza for a week now.

Clean water is running out in the Gaza Strip, after its water plant and public water networks stopped working. People are now forced to use dirty water from wells, increasing risks of waterborne diseases. Gaza has also been under an electricity blackout since 11 October, impacting the water supply.

At the UN base in the southern Gaza Strip - where UNRWA has moved its operations- drinking water is also running out. Thousands of people have sought refuge there after Israel issued a warning to residents demanding them to leave their homes in the northern parts of the Strip.

Only in the past 12 hours, hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced. The exodus continues as people move to the southern parts of the Gaza Strip. Nearly 1 million people have been displaced in one week alone.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "Humans can only ..." / X

Humans can only survive without water for about 3 days. Gaza has run dry.

The blockade on water, food, and electricity is an indiscriminate, collective punishment and a crime.

It is cruel and unjust. To save millions of people in Gaza - nearly half children - it must end. Now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Th Israeli solution as declared by Israel is the complete destruction of Hamas, no more cease fires and negations. That can only be accomplished by the destruction of Gaza

The Palestinian Solution is "We'll Drive them into the sea!" Has been since the mid 1940s.
Tom

Do you have a link? IIRC the phrase in the 1940s was "We'll drive them back into the sea" and it was in reference to the Zionist immigrants arriving by the boatload who were armed, organized, engaging in acts of terrorism, and clearly intending to force non-Jews off the land they wanted for their proposed Jewish State. And wasn't the person who said that an Egyptian who had never lived in Palestine?

Where are these acts of terrorism you refer to?

Yes, they bombed a hotel. What's conveniently omitted from most reports of that is that it was British military HQ--a valid target, not terrorism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For the future, the simple answer to the question “Do you have a link?” is either yes or no. If “yes” , the protocol is to provide the link. If “no”, then you don’t tell others to go search.

The thing is asking for a link is often used to avoid responding to an issue. The provided links are almost always ignored.

 

[lpetrich]

UN Human Rights Office
has
Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War | OHCHR

Article 33

No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Thus stating that collective punishment is a war crime.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas will have to be defeated, both on the battlefield and in the polls. The atrocities must be condemned, and those who committed them must be held accountable. I think it would be better if they were tried in the Hague rather than in Israel but they probably won't live very long once they've been identified.

I doubt the individuals will be identified. We know where the authority lies, though, and they're not going to be prosecuted. That's because command is in Qatar and the ultimate authority is in Tehran.

Peace is possible with the PLO but Israel will have to allow Fatah to succeed in order to secure it. That's been the sticking point.

Peace is not possible because the PLO can't accept statehood. The best that can be hoped for is a pretty much cold war--which is pretty much the status quo.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Was it mentioned here that Hamas was created by Israel to create problems for PLO/Arafat?
PLO was communist heavily leaning toward USSR. So Mossad created islamist leaning organization. Reminds you anything?

And it caused an awful lot of infighting between Hamas and Fatah. But Hamas ended up with the terror money so they're the ones attacking Israel. Hamas is simply an organizational structure, a puppet, not a primary actor. The violence follows the money, whatever the name of the group doing it. What name the group has means little.