Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Israeli missiles killed 11 UN staffers I think. I read that while not a common mindset, I read via BBC that a number of those in the Israeli government are saying fuck the hostages, full speed ahead.

Israel knows that no reasonable deal for the hostages can be reached. Dragging it out just causes more hostages to be taken.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I recall a time when people thought that peace with the PLO was not possible.

Peace is only possible when the all the relevant parties want peace and are willing to do what it takes to achieve and sustain it. One big part of that is the willingness to forgive - something neither side in this conflict appears willing or able to do at this time.

The thing is Tehran will ensure there is a conflict somewhere. The existence of Hamas as the main terror front makes for a possibility (I don't believe it can actually happen as the PLO can't declare a state) of peace with the PLO. The terror will continue so long as the money does, the names can change.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To be determined. Hamas' attack was particularly gruesome, which set things back a while. Iran is using relatively guarded language in support of the attack, which says even Iran thinks Hamas was/is el Loco.

It's not a setback because that implies there was a path forward in the first place.

Israel has two paths to peace: suicide or turn Tehran into a parking lot and ask if anyone else wants to fund the terror. The status quo is clearly superior to either of these.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's hard to find a reputable source for Hamas's charter, but I think I have: Avalon Project - Documents in Law, History and Diplomacy

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement
18 August 1988

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

...
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Doesn't seem very merciful to me.

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

Introduction

Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws - everlasting prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last.

Then Article One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

They've revised them a while back to pretend to not be requiring genocide but they just replaced it with "from the river to the sea"--same thing, different label.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas (aka "Islamic Resistance Movement") bragging about turning water pipes into rockets.

And this is why they have a water shortage. They have diverted the pipes meant for wells that were approved into rocket-making. Is it any wonder that Israel doesn't give them replacements? Their water problems are self-inflicted.

 

[lpetrich]

This is an opportunity for Israel's leaders to show that they can do much more for these people than Hamas has been doing -- but they aren't.

 

[steve_bank]

As I understand it.

What we call Palestinians today were recruited by the Arabs to fight the Jews in the first Arab Israeli war. After several wars the Arabs lost the Palestinians were abandoned.

Palestinian to the Arabs as I would put it became 'trailer trash' as we might say. Outcasts among the Arabs. Nobody wants Palestinian refugees.

Palestinians facing military occupation and seizure of land had no choice but asymmetric/unconventional warfare.

Before the Intifadas the borders were fairly open. Palestinians crossed to work in Israel from Gaza. Israel was a market for Gaza goods.

The terror tactics forced Israel and Egypt both to close borders. Gaza was isolated and Israel controlled imports. Nothing remotely useful for a terrorist was banned.

I heard a reporter say going from the West Bank to Gaza was like going back in time. Donkeys pulling carts.

To me anger and frustration simmered in the isolation until it resulted in what we see today.

It comes down to whether or not you think Palestinians have a right and justification to fight back against the Israelis.

Under Netanyahu Israel by his own words will do whatever it wants to rgardless of what anodyne thinks.


Bide and Blinken are making the pro ofrma staments like not all Palestinians are Hamas, but in the end they say the mantra Israel has a right to defend themselves proving political cover to Isreal. All te while never adressing the udelying coases of Plaestin violence.

Obama did speak against the setllemnts, n=but did ot push it.

In past tears tere have been talk of snctiong Isreal but went b-no where.

There is a long list of UN resoltions on the Palsestinian issues, all ignored by Isreal.

First Intifada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The First Intifada or First Palestinian Intifada,[5][7] also known as Stone Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة الحجارة, romanized: Intifāḍat al-Hijara, lit. 'Stone Uprising')[note 1] or simply as the intifada or the intifadah,[note 2] was a sustained series of protests and violent riots[8] carried out by Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories and Israel. It was motivated by collective Palestinian frustration over Israel's military occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as it approached a twenty-year mark, having begun after Israel's victory in the 1967 Arab–Israeli War.[9] The uprising lasted from December 1987 until the Madrid Conference of 1991, though some date its conclusion to 1993, with the signing of the Oslo Accords.[5]

Second Intifada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Second Intifada (Arabic: الانتفاضة الثانية, romanized: Al-Intifāḍat aṯ-Ṯāniyya; Hebrew: האינתיפאדה השנייה, romanized: Ha-Intifada ha-Shniya), also known as the Al-Aqsa Intifada (انتفاضة الأقصى, Intifāḍat al-ʾAqṣā),[11] was a major Palestinian uprising in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories and Israel.[11] The general triggers for the unrest are speculated to have been centred on the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit, which was expected to reach a final agreement on the Israeli–Palestinian peace process in July 2000.[12] Outbreaks of violence began in September 2000, after Ariel Sharon, then the Israeli opposition leader, made a provocative visit to the Al-Aqsa compound on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem;[13][12] the visit itself was peaceful, but, as anticipated, sparked protests and riots that Israeli police put down with rubber bullets and tear gas.[14]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Shall we start with the Right of Return for approx. 15,000 Palestinian refugees to their former communities in Israel and both sides legitimizing some of the settlements in the Occupied Territories, which would absolutely result in some degree of integration?

I am happy for that to happen provided the Jews who fled Jordan, Iraq, Lebabnon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt to Morooco etc. in 1948 onwards can return to their former communities and thus result in some degree of integration.
Jewish exodus from arab lands

I'd be very happy if Jews who were driven out of Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt to Morocco, etc. could return to their homes and communities, or at least be compensated for their losses, but that's up to Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt to Morocco, etc.

Yeah, anything to put the problem on the Jews.

Not letting Palestinian refugees return to the places from which they were driven out until some other ethnic or religious community can return to someplace else is irrational. Likewise, not letting those other people return to their places of origin until the Palestinians can return makes no sense. All that does is perpetuate the problem for everyone.

But let's suppose we tie the return for all of them together. Do you support the Right of 15,000 Jews to return to their former homes? Then you should be advocating for the 15,000 Palestinian refugees to return to their former homes in Israel.

The majority were not driven out--they left of their own accord ahead of the Arab invasion. Then they were not allowed to return when they refused to swear to non-violence. Effectively, they declared themselves enemy combatants, of course they weren't allowed in. Their choice, they don't get a right of return.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A barrage of 100s of rockets, including longer range ones reaching as far as Tel Aviv. Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib and the rest of the Squad must be rejoicing.

Squad Derangement Syndrome.

I think his criticism is right on target.

An immediate cease-fire would be heaven for Hamas and would ensure there would be another massacre like this soon. She is in effect calling for more dead Jews.

Technically attacking Hamas in the urban setting will kill more Jews too.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I find it confusing that Hamas would be in Qatar. It'd almost be as if they know they went too far... which would be really odd. Hamas won't give the hostages up without an exchange. Threatening them won't make any difference. Attacking them won't make any difference. If I was Israel, I'd find a lowish bar and provide that to them as a one-time deal. That also probably wouldn't work, but there is little doubt that it is in the hostages best interests to be released as soon as possible.

Thus showing you don't understand the situation.

Hamas military HQ used to be underneath the main hospital. They apparently deemed that not safe enough and relocated to Qatar instead. Hamas knew Gaza was going to get pounded when they launched the attack.

Unfortunately, Israel has a record of making lopsided deals for hostages. That came back and shot them in the foot here--there's no way they're getting them back without making the situation much worse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As a last resort if Qatar maintains their obstinance in refusing to arrest and extradite Hamas leaders who are responsible for the mass murder of more than 1000 people.
Assassinations are not necessarily wrong, nor bloodlusty. They are a tool. US engages in targeted killings of terrorists as well.

Assassinations are expedient but are not morally justified.

The problem is with the word "assassinate". That implies a political motive and is wrong.

What Derec appears to be favoring is killing combatants by stealthy means. Not all that different than our dropping a Hellfire on Taliban commanders.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. It seems most of it came along with Jews from Europe singing This Land is my Land.
Lacking any western news sources and not wanting to take as gospel the writings of Al Jazeera and the like, I've resorted to reading at the United Nations website. So far they don't seem to much favor Israel.
United Nations The Question of Palestine

The United Nations isn't remotely neutral.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

By injuring children? That is just barbaric.

Not intentionally. Sometimes children get injured or killed. But unlike with Hamas, I have not seen any evidence Israel targets children.

According to UNICEF, Isreal has now killed 750 Palestinian children and wounded about 2,450.

Oh, but, hey, they weren’t targeted! They’re simply collateral damage — hey, “sometimes children get injured or killed.” Shit happens, amirite?

And Hamas killed those children by using them as human shields. All of their stuff is in civilian buildings and Hamas doesn't permit evacuation if they know about an incoming strike.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Going back to what Jews did in Palestine, Israel does not have a leg to stand on by labeling Palestinian armed resistance terrorists.

Mencham Begin destined to be a PM of Israel was part of it.

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

King David Hotel = British military HQ. Valid target, not terrorism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, Hamas is part of the problem. So was the IRA in the UK or RAFC in Colombia (the Taliban in Afghanistan). Sometimes pragmatism is a stone cold bitch!

The we aren't negotiating with anyone tactic didn't work. It was an odd opportunity that might not have worked at all, but it was an opportunity. When in a position of leadership, it becomes harder to be obstinate (ignore Trump please), as your actions carry absolute weight with repercussions. But no one even tried. So it is was an aberration of history that provided the world a small chance, that went entirely unanswered.

There was no point in negotiating. The Palestinians never did their side of any agreement. Israel stopped making front-loaded agreements and it switched to demanding Israel make concessions in exchange for talks. That was also proven futile. It's not that Israel won't talk, it's that Israel won't make unbalanced agreements.

So I guess it is murder/defensive killing/taller electric fences for the next couple of decades.

This was rockets, paragliders and blowing holes in the wall.

Understand now why Israel tends to shoot people approaching the border wall? Hint: The charges are never placed by those who look like combatants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It sounds that way to you because you only see Jews as victims.

I understand that a lot of people are feeling shock and grief right now, and that the first stages of grief are anger and denial. But our discussion has been going on for over 20 years, and I still hold to the position I took all those years ago: racism, religious bigotry, and blatant opportunism is the driving force in this conflict. The sooner the racists, bigots, and shameless opportunists are sidelined and a more just and fair, even-handed approach is implemented, the better.

Shock? Only at the scale.

And you're as wrong now as before--the driving force is terror money. Just look at it--there's no way Hamas could afford to do what it does if it was their own money. They're being funded big time by Tehran. Hamas and Tehran are on opposite sides of the Muslim divide, this isn't about religion. This is about Tehran causing trouble.

Hamas is as evil as the Irgun. It has massacred civilians and is using terror tactics to achieve its goals. It must be stopped.

Fatah has forsworn terrorism and violence to achieve its goals. If you want the violence end then advocate for rewarding Fatah with actual, genuine concessions, not just more exploitation and theft of resources.

Forsworn terrorism when a major budget item is paying the families of terrorists???

How much time must elapse before something can no longer be considered a cause for a certain course of action?

Operation Shield and Arrow happened on May 9th. Operation Revenge of the Free happened on May 10th. Do you believe that exchange of fire is part of the provocations that led to the current outbreak of open fighting, or do you think it doesn't qualify since it took place six months ago?

I think the current situation is because Iran wanted to disrupt the peace talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

I think Hamas doesn't give an actual fuck about what Iran wants.

Hamas most certainly gives a major fuck about what it's paymasters want.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "Humans can only ..." / X

Humans can only survive without water for about 3 days. Gaza has run dry.

The blockade on water, food, and electricity is an indiscriminate, collective punishment and a crime.

It is cruel and unjust. To save millions of people in Gaza - nearly half children - it must end. Now.

Yeah, Hamas could surrender.

But, no, they have plenty of water. It's the weak that won't have water.

 

[lpetrich]

And Hamas killed those children by using them as human shields. All of their stuff is in civilian buildings and Hamas doesn't permit evacuation if they know about an incoming strike.

It was Israel's armed forces that killed those children. Attacking human shields is a war crime. Both sides can be guilty of war crimes, however hard it is for some people to accept. They seem to think that only one side in a conflict can possibly be guilty of war crimes.  Human shield (law) - "The use of involuntary human shields does not release the other party from legal obligations to not target protected civilians or inflict excessive collateral damage."

 

[Arctish]

Th Israeli solution as declared by Israel is the complete destruction of Hamas, no more cease fires and negations. That can only be accomplished by the destruction of Gaza

The Palestinian Solution is "We'll Drive them into the sea!" Has been since the mid 1940s.
Tom

Do you have a link? IIRC the phrase in the 1940s was "We'll drive them back into the sea" and it was in reference to the Zionist immigrants arriving by the boatload who were armed, organized, engaging in acts of terrorism, and clearly intending to force non-Jews off the land they wanted for their proposed Jewish State. And wasn't the person who said that an Egyptian who had never lived in Palestine?

Where are these acts of terrorism you refer to?

Yes, they bombed a hotel. What's conveniently omitted from most reports of that is that it was British military HQ--a valid target, not terrorism.

I going out in a few minutes but when I get back later tonight I will link to a previous post where you and I discussed this. Maybe we can jump start your memory.

 

[steve_bank]

Going back to what Jews did in Palestine, Israel does not have a leg to stand on by labeling Palestinian armed resistance terrorists.

Mencham Begin destined to be a PM of Israel was part of it.

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

King David Hotel = British military HQ. Valid target, not terrorism.

The point is Jews armed themselves and attacked the Brits. Same reasons Palestinians arm themselves and attack Israel. The initial aggressor in today's conflict was Jews arming themselves and taking land by force forming modern Israel, land seizure continuing today.

Note civilians were killed in te bombing. There were other incidents by Jews we would consider atrocities, both Arabs and Jews.

The idea Israel is a blameless victim is Israeli conservative propaganda. Successfully used on American over decades. Now e we are seeing TV adds featuring old alleged Holocaust survivors to stoke syncopate.