Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Toni]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "Humans can only ..." / X

Humans can only survive without water for about 3 days. Gaza has run dry.

The blockade on water, food, and electricity is an indiscriminate, collective punishment and a crime.

It is cruel and unjust. To save millions of people in Gaza - nearly half children - it must end. Now.

Yeah, Hamas could surrender.

But, no, they have plenty of water. It's the weak that won't have water.

You aren’t talking about the same ‘they.’ Hamas is not the Palestinian people

 

[laughing dog]

As a last resort if Qatar maintains their obstinance in refusing to arrest and extradite Hamas leaders who are responsible for the mass murder of more than 1000 people.
Assassinations are not necessarily wrong, nor bloodlusty. They are a tool. US engages in targeted killings of terrorists as well.

Assassinations are expedient but are not morally justified.

The problem is with the word "assassinate". That implies a political motive and is wrong.

What Derec appears to be favoring is killing combatants by stealthy means. Not all that different than our dropping a Hellfire on Taliban commanders.

Killing leaders if a political group is a political act. It is insane to claim otherwise.

 

[Swammerdami]

If someone had a time machine and an army they could prevent much of the conflict by forcing the Zionist immigrants to become part of Palestinian society and work their way up to prosperity, not steal every bit of productive farmland and every commercial enterprise they could get their hands on and force the local population into refugee camps. But we live in the real world where actions have consequences. The consequence of the hostile takeover of most of Palestine by mostly European immigrants, and the explicit racism and religious bigotry that is the foundation of the State of Israel, was war. The consequence of thwarting the establishment of a Palestinian State in a negotiated peace treaty, or securing equal rights and equal treatment for the people of Israel and Palestine regardless of race, ethnicity, and religion, is the ongoing violence and injustice of apartheid, oppression, insurgency, and terrorism.

Both sides have committed atrocities. Tracing historical details hardly matters since "Two four ten fifty a hundred wrongs don't make a right."

BUT I think the summary quoted above is VERY misleading. There are Arabs living in peace within Israel. "Apartheid" of Palestinians began in response to Wars of Annihilation started by Arab countries.

Sure, and that would award Israel to…the Jews. Of course it depends on how far one wants to go back, but if one goes back as far as one can, by most historical scholars reckoning, Israel is sitting pretty much where it first began.

We can go back further! The Torah itself details the conquest of Judaea and Israel from earlier Canaanites. This began with God directing Joshua to lay siege to the ancient city of Jericho. Egypt's Amarna Letters document Habiru conquests in Canaan.^* David killed Goliath, champion of the Philistines. "Philistine" and "Palestine" are cognates! (Though the Philistines were invading "Sea People.")

It's beside the point, but the DNA of Palestinians and Jews can be compared to try to make guesses about their ancient origins. When this is done, IIUC, the two groups are found to be . . . almost identical genetically!


* - The Jews' own origin myths make them -- or at least the Yahwists in the South -- shepherds from the East of the Jordan River. I conjecture the crossroads near present-day Petra may have been their very early power-base. But I've not Googled to see whether reputable historians come to a similar conclusion.

 

[Toni]

If someone had a time machine and an army they could prevent much of the conflict by forcing the Zionist immigrants to become part of Palestinian society and work their way up to prosperity, not steal every bit of productive farmland and every commercial enterprise they could get their hands on and force the local population into refugee camps. But we live in the real world where actions have consequences. The consequence of the hostile takeover of most of Palestine by mostly European immigrants, and the explicit racism and religious bigotry that is the foundation of the State of Israel, was war. The consequence of thwarting the establishment of a Palestinian State in a negotiated peace treaty, or securing equal rights and equal treatment for the people of Israel and Palestine regardless of race, ethnicity, and religion, is the ongoing violence and injustice of apartheid, oppression, insurgency, and terrorism.

Both sides have committed atrocities. Tracing historical details hardly matters since "Two four ten fifty a hundred wrongs don't make a right."

BUT I think the summary quoted above is VERY misleading. There are Arabs living in peace within Israel. "Apartheid" of Palestinians began in response to Wars of Annihilation started by Arab countries.

Sure, and that would award Israel to…the Jews. Of course it depends on how far one wants to go back, but if one goes back as far as one can, by most historical scholars reckoning, Israel is sitting pretty much where it first began.

We can go back further! The Torah itself details the conquest of Judaea and Israel from earlier Canaanites. This began with God directing Joshua to lay siege to the ancient city of Jericho. Egypt's Amarna Letters document Habiru conquests in Canaan.^* David killed Goliath, champion of the Philistines. "Philistine" and "Palestine" are cognates! (Though the Philistines were invading "Sea People.")

It's beside the point, but the DNA of Palestinians and Jews can be compared to try to make guesses about their ancient origins. When this is done, IIUC, the two groups are found to be . . . almost identical genetically!


* - The Jews' own origin myths make them -- or at least the Yahwists in the South -- shepherds from the East of the Jordan River. I conjecture the crossroads near present-day Petra may have been their very early power-base. But I've not Googled to see whether reputable historians come to a similar conclusion.

Yes, genetically, they are the same peoples. The cultural traditions are incredibly similar and of course, both follow Abrahamic religions. Islam, of course, is a newer religion than Judaism.

 

[Arctish]

If someone had a time machine and an army they could prevent much of the conflict by forcing the Zionist immigrants to become part of Palestinian society and work their way up to prosperity, not steal every bit of productive farmland and every commercial enterprise they could get their hands on and force the local population into refugee camps. But we live in the real world where actions have consequences. The consequence of the hostile takeover of most of Palestine by mostly European immigrants, and the explicit racism and religious bigotry that is the foundation of the State of Israel, was war. The consequence of thwarting the establishment of a Palestinian State in a negotiated peace treaty, or securing equal rights and equal treatment for the people of Israel and Palestine regardless of race, ethnicity, and religion, is the ongoing violence and injustice of apartheid, oppression, insurgency, and terrorism.

Both sides have committed atrocities. Tracing historical details hardly matters since "Two four ten fifty a hundred wrongs don't make a right."

BUT I think the summary quoted above is VERY misleading. There are Arabs living in peace within Israel. "Apartheid" of Palestinians began in response to Wars of Annihilation started by Arab countries.

It began much earlier, with the Jewish Agency for Palestine and Zionist thinking regarding the resident non-Jewish population.

Plan Dalet was obvious, intentional ethnic cleansing of the parts of Palestine Zionists wanted for their Jewish State.

Plan Dalet: Blueprint for the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine​

• From the earliest days of modern political Zionism, its advocates grappled with the problem of creating a Jewish majority state in a part of the world where Palestinian Arabs were the overwhelming majority of the population. For many, the solution became known as "transfer," a euphemism for ethnic cleansing.
• As far back as 1895, the father of modern political Zionism, Theodor Herzl, wrote: "We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
• By August 1937, "transfer" was a major subject of discussion at the Twentieth Zionist Congress in Zurich, Switzerland. Alluding to the systematic dispossession of Palestinian peasants (fellahin) that Zionist organizations had been engaged in for years, David Ben-Gurion, who would become Israel's first prime minister in 1948, stated:
  

  "You are no doubt aware of the [Jewish National Fund's] activity in this respect. Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out. In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the Arab fellahin." He concluded: "Jewish power [in Palestine], which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out this transfer on a large scale."

• In June 1938, Ben-Gurion told a meeting of the Jewish Agency: "I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it".

• 
  In December 1940, Joseph Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund's Lands Department, which was tasked with acquiring land for the Zionist enterprise in Palestine, wrote in his diary:
  

  There is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, and to transfer all of them, save perhaps for [the Arabs of] Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one [bedouin] tribe. And only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb millions of our brothers and the Jewish problem will cease to exist. There is no other solution.

Sure, and that would award Israel to…the Jews. Of course it depends on how far one wants to go back, but if one goes back as far as one can, by most historical scholars reckoning, Israel is sitting pretty much where it first began.

We can go back further! The Torah itself details the conquest of Judaea and Israel from earlier Canaanites. This began with God directing Joshua to lay siege to the ancient city of Jericho. Egypt's Amarna Letters document Habiru conquests in Canaan.^* David killed Goliath, champion of the Philistines. "Philistine" and "Palestine" are cognates! (Though the Philistines were invading "Sea People.")

It's beside the point, but the DNA of Palestinians and Jews can be compared to try to make guesses about their ancient origins. When this is done, IIUC, the two groups are found to be . . . almost identical genetically!

That is exactly my point. The indigenous population of Palestine includes Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze, and other religious groups. It is a violation of basic Human Rights to force them at gunpoint to go live somewhere else.

 

[Arctish]

Where are these acts of terrorism you refer to?

Yes, they bombed a hotel. What's conveniently omitted from most reports of that is that it was British military HQ--a valid target, not terrorism.

I going out in a few minutes but when I get back later tonight I will link to a previous post where you and I discussed this. Maybe we can jump start your memory.

Well here's a walk down memory lane.

You used to know what the Irgun was and what they did. And here's a list of known attacks they carried out. Blowing up bombs placed on buses, in train stations, in movie theaters, in crowded marketplaces, etc.

Should I dig up the thread on Netanyahu honoring the terrorists who bombed the King David hotel with a ceremony and placing a nice commemorative plaque, with one of the terrorists on hand to describe to the VIP guests how he and his fellow terrorists carried out their plan? Or do you think you might remember that one?

 

[bilby]

Islam, of course, is a newer religion than Judaism.

Nah, it's a newer version of the exact same religion.

Windows 11 is the same OS as Windows 95, just a newer version. Windows will never be Linux, in the exact same way that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam will never be Hinduism.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism are all just versions of a single (very stupid) idea. Like MS Windows, it's utter crap, but massively popular.

 

[TV and credit cards]

No. It seems most of it came along with Jews from Europe singing This Land is my Land.
Lacking any western news sources and not wanting to take as gospel the writings of Al Jazeera and the like, I've resorted to reading at the United Nations website. So far they don't seem to much favor Israel.
United Nations The Question of Palestine

The United Nations isn't remotely neutral.

I knew that was coming. No sooner did I type United Nations I thought, watch Loren come along and dismiss it (similar to your Wikipedia dismissal) as being biased or cherry picking events.
So I'm at a crossroad. Shall I continue on my current route of seeking information from sources like Wikipedia and the UN or do I look to Loren?
I don't know which way to turn.

 

[pood]

By injuring children? That is just barbaric.

Not intentionally. Sometimes children get injured or killed. But unlike with Hamas, I have not seen any evidence Israel targets children.

According to UNICEF, Isreal has now killed 750 Palestinian children and wounded about 2,450.

Oh, but, hey, they weren’t targeted! They’re simply collateral damage — hey, “sometimes children get injured or killed.” Shit happens, amirite?

And Hamas killed those children by using them as human shields. All of their stuff is in civilian buildings and Hamas doesn't permit evacuation if they know about an incoming strike.

Do you really believe that NO Palestinian children are being killed and wounded just because of the attack, and not because they are being used as human shields? You don’t think Israel has leveled buildings, and killed people, including children, where no Hamas terrorists are around? Why would Palestinians use Palestinian children as human shields? If Hamas knew about an incoming attack, don’t you think they themselves would evacuate to save their own lives? What you say makes absolutely no sense. Do you think Hamas believes that if it uses Palestinian children as human shields, it will deter Israel from attacking them? Why would they think that? It’s as apparent as the sun in the morning on a clear day that Israel doesn’t give a good goddamn about Palestinian children or ANY Palestinians, or indeed about anyone else in the world except themselves. Witness how for all these decades they’ve been playing Uncle Safm for suckers, as the U.S. continuously finances their atrocities.

 

[laughing dog]

The United Nations isn't remotely neutral.

It is more neutral than you.

And this is why they have a water shortage. They have diverted the pipes meant for wells that were approved into rocket-making. Is it any wonder that Israel doesn't give them replacements? Their water problems are self-inflicted.

Right now, the water shortage is due to Israel turning off the flow of water to Gaza.

 

[Rhea]

Israel has two paths to peace: suicide or turn Tehran into a parking lot and ask if anyone else wants to fund the terror. The status quo is clearly superior to either of these.

I find this post to be a disturbing and anti-human point of view.

The idea that utterly destroying - to dust - a city of 9 million people as either a laugh line, an acceptable hyperbole, or worse still a serious position fills me with disgust.


To be so callous about the lives of 9 million people because of who they have as a government, not to mention saying this knowing that there are ongoing protests against that government by people risking their safety and their lives to do so, and to still say, yeah, turn them into a parking lot appalls me.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Israel was clearly wrong to give a 24 hour deadline. A number of posters were very silent on this or even agreed to it. They've not quite yet catastrophically destroyed the north and seem to be delaying some, perhaps due to pressure of good people like the UN saying, "you are being too hasty." It's hard for me to understand how anyone here, especially atheists, could support Israel's previous position to go in within 24 hours, even though now even Israel has abandoned that position. Pregnant women, the sick, people in hospitals, very poor, or just stuck behind a car for 12 hours trying to get southward can be a hell of an issue. Most recently Israel decided to turn the water back on, but just to the south. It's probably an attempt to motivate more people to go southward and improve perceptions of their actions. Either way, stating that there was no water because the pipes were used for bombs or whatever cannot be true, if Israel can just flip a switch and make the water run. I wish that these changes, delays, and turning the water on were a good sign and I do hope that if Israel goes in, that hundreds of thousands more people can leave the north first.

 

[TomC]

The idea that utterly destroying - to dust - a city of 9 million people as either a laugh line, an acceptable hyperbole, or worse still a serious position fills me with disgust.

Considering the level of hyperbole going in this issue and discussion, picking that one to gripe about seems more than a bit biased to me.
Tom

 

[TomC]

It's hard for me to understand how anyone here, especially atheists, could support Israel's previous position to go in within 24 hours, even though no

I don't see why you find Israel's hardass negotiating position hard to understand.
Let's face it, 24 hour notice is 24 hours more than Hamas gave Israel. And as you've pointed out, Israel has already backed off the toughest parts.

One hour of utilities per hostage release could get the Palestinians a good bit of time.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

It's hard for me to understand how anyone here, especially atheists, could support Israel's previous position to go in within 24 hours, even though no

I don't see why you find Israel's hardass negotiating position hard to understand.
Let's face it, 24 hour notice is 24 hours more than Hamas gave Israel.

Using Hamas’s behaviour as the standard is setting a pretty low bar for morality for a country that self depicts itself as a beacon of ethics and morality.

Israel’s position is not hard to understand- “. We are going to destroy you” is simple to understand as a concept. So is revenge.

But rational people can wonder how this revenge will help the long and different path to real peace.

 

[TomC]

Israel’s position is not hard to understand- “. We are going to destroy you” is simple to understand as a concept. So is revenge.

I wonder if Rhea will find this hyperbole worth taking to task.
"If you don't stop assaulting civilians we will destroy you" isn't the same thing.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Israel’s position is not hard to understand- “. We are going to destroy you” is simple to understand as a concept. So is revenge.

I wonder if Rhea will find this hyperbole worth taking to task.
"If you don't stop assaulting civilians we will destroy you" isn't the same thing.
Tom

It isn’t. Since that is not the rationale for Israel’s stated policy, one wonders why you bring it up.

 

[Copernicus]

It's hard for me to understand how anyone here, especially atheists, could support Israel's previous position to go in within 24 hours, even though no

I don't see why you find Israel's hardass negotiating position hard to understand.
Let's face it, 24 hour notice is 24 hours more than Hamas gave Israel. And as you've pointed out, Israel has already backed off the toughest parts.

One hour of utilities per hostage release could get the Palestinians a good bit of time.
Tom

But, Tom, answer me this. Israel, unlike Hamas, is not a terrorist organization, is it? If not, what is the difference? Both sides seem to engage in terrorist acts against civilian populations.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Let's face it, 24 hour notice is 24 hours more than Hamas gave Israel.

Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing.

 

[TomC]

But, Tom, answer me this. Israel, unlike Hamas, is not a terrorist organization, is it? If not, what is the difference?

There's plenty of blame to spread around concerning this vat of simmering bad blood laced with bodies.

As created, the State of Israel was a huge disaster that reeks of Euro-Colonialism. The assault of 1948 kinda sealed the deal.

But no, the ugliness of this week's humanitarian disaster is not on Israel, mostly. Hamas picked it. Israel responded. Like it or not, Gazans wouldn't be without power and water if Hamas hadn't attacked last Saturday.
Tom