Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Toni]

Realistically, Israel did not have a choice. If their government had decided against war it would have been overthrown.

That is a delusional statement. It's not possible for Hamas to overthrow the Israeli government. Hamas has hand weapons and unguided rockets. Israel has tanks, artillery, guided missile systems, a very good missile defense system, a navy, and much more.

I think he means the government would have been overthrown by the Israeli people. No evidence for that, and anyway, right now the Israeli people are fed up with the war and the failure to rescue the hostages, so Netanyahu is in trouble anyway.

Doubtful. Both on your speculation of Loren's post and that the Israelis could overthrow their own government.

There is a difference between could and would.

 

[steve_bank]

Netanyahu lost power, then against the odds he manged to form a coalition to defeat moderates and return to power.

The Israeli system can be more chaotic than ours., but it appears to have fair elections.

In a fair election Trump may get re elected, similar to Netanyahu returning to power. Both men are corrupt.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Gaza and Hamas are not the same. This is not an opinion, it is an objective fact that you ignore.

If Loren allows that, then Israel becomes genocidal. He has to conflate them to justify indiscriminate mass murder.

The reality is that in a war the civilians suffer for the acts of their government. The government of Gaza picked a war with Israel. That's hell for their civilians but it doesn't make Israel's actions wrong. Same as the Russian civilians in Kursk are suffering.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Looks like their little commit genocide against 40000 civilians on the advice of an AI plan isn't working out very well for the hostages they're supposedly "rescuing" by those extreme measures. Who could have predicted?

Oh yeah, everyone. FUcking everyone predicted that.

40,000 civilians?

Only because Hamas pretends there are no combatants. That's actually 40,000 claimed dead. Israel claims 17,000 combatants, leaving 23,000 of those being civilians. And of that number we have 4,000 clearly fake entries.

And why do you blame AI for what happened to the hostages? It's patently obvious what happened to the hostages--Hamas executed them when it was apparent Israel was going to get them out.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're already saying killing in war isn't right or wrong though. So by your own argument it isn't necessarily wrong for Hamas to start a war and kill people.

There is a huge difference between a war of aggression and a defensive war. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Islamofascist Gaza and Nazi Germany both started wars of aggression. All civilian deaths are on them, not on countries defending themselves from that aggression.

I'm using your own words. You said war is hell, civilians die. Why is it wrong in one case but not the other?

We are blaming the side that started the war for the war dead.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm using your own words. You said war is hell, civilians die. Why is it wrong in one case but not the other?

You are either misunderstanding or misconstruing my words.
The difference is that one side started the war and the other is defending itself. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Is it because of the double standards the Ilk has about Israel?

Lmao dude, you made a general statement about war itself. You said "war is hell", what's so hard to comprehend about that?

Yes, we both have said that. War is hell. Yet you continue to cite examples of that hell as proof of wrongdoing when you're simply showing what happens in war. Especially war using human shield tactics.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

THE WAR WAS NOT STARTED BY GAZA OR BY THE PALESTINIANS. It was started by HAMAS. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

Got that?

The Palestinians don’t have to learn anything. Israel has to learn to stop treating the Palestinians the way Nazi Germany treated the Jews.

We know that. But the reality is that the civilians of a country suffer when it's leaders choose war even if they do not personally support the war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do you keep conflating Gazans with Hamas?

Are you unable to make the distinction between the people of Gaza and the political party ruling the Gaza Strip, or simply unwilling? I already showed you the numbers here:

https://iidb.org/threads/gaza-just-...-attack-on-israel.27714/page-150#post-1159609

And how exactly do you propose Israel deal with Hamas without hitting civilians in Gaza? I still have seen no meaningful reply to that cartoon of the Hamas fighter with a baby in their plate carrier. It's a horror you can't accept so you deny it's reality.

Also, why do you keep placing the burden of peacemaking solely on the Palestinians? Do you honestly think Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben Gvir, and their policies play no part in the continuing strife?

Because it's Hamas that chose the path of war. It's Hamas that won't meet Israel's non-negotiable condition for peace: release all the hostages.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Notably, the Allied powers in 1945 insisted on unconditional surrender from Germany, and not on the deaths of every member of the Wehrmacht.

The death penalty for surviving senior commanders who had committed war crimes was not extended to all soldiers, sailors, and airmen who fought.

Do you think they needed killing?

And where's the corresponding surrender? Hint: It hasn't happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There were atrocities and terrorism on both Arab and Jewish sides,

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The fact that this keeps being cited goes a long way towards showing they weren't the terrorists you proclaim them to be.

The thing is the King David Hotel was a valid military target. Your poster boy for terrorism wasn't terrorism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Oh, and what about this Israeli minister, Loren? Starving two millions Gazans isn’t genocide? And he came right out and admitted that the only reason they aren’t doing just that is because the world won’t let them. So they are conducting a slower genocide instead, using bombs and bullets against innocent and defenseless civilians, a huge number of them children.

Siege is a valid tactic in war.

If you want to see actual genocide:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/09/sudan-darfur-kutum-massacre-rsf/

But it's Iran behind it so the world press basically ignores it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Zackly. “Exemplary fashion” doesn’t include killing 10x civilians per combatant.
Fucking Bibi is a war (and other) criminal and Israel will be paying s huge price for coddling him for years or decades to come.

Check your memory. 10x is the typical ratio. Gaza looks like about 1.4x by raw numbers 1.1x excluding the known bad data.

Who told you that Loren?
There’s no such thing as “bad data” on this level. If it’s bad it’s not data. But I’m sure categories can be manipulated to make some kind of irrelevant case for the “exemplary” nature of Bibi’s genocidal campaign to preserve his own freedom.

4,000 of the hospital records are a combination of clearly falsified data and real people who died before the war. I'm lumping them as "bad data" because not all of them are demonstrably fraud.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Zackly. “Exemplary fashion” doesn’t include killing 10x civilians per combatant.
Fucking Bibi is a war (and other) criminal and Israel will be paying s huge price for coddling him for years or decades to come.

Check your memory. 10x is the typical ratio. Gaza looks like about 1.4x by raw numbers 1.1x excluding the known bad data.

What is you unbiased source for this claim?

Quit it with the derailing. We have discussed this previously.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I also resent your claim that I am paying “lip service” to Hamas atrocities. I have and do fully condemn them.

Yet you blame Israel for the atrocity that Hamas engineered in Gaza and we are seeing play out. The atrocity they are using to try to get the world to stop Israel.

Israel is responsible for its choices it makes.

Realistically, Israel did not have a choice……

Nonsense. The gov’t of Israel had plenty of options besides the one it chose against the counsel of the army.

Yes, Hamas wanted war but since when should the gov’t of Israel hive Hamas anything it wants?

If "plenty of options" exist why has nobody been able to suggest a single reasonable one? Plenty of people are hostile to Israel and would speak up if they could make Israel look bad by doing so. Yet all those military professionals and not a peep.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

10 years ago I would have said the US should supply arms to Israel to prevent its being over run. Not so much today.

I used to think there was a moral obligation to help a Jewish state giivne the WWII persecution.

We haven't armed Israel out of the goodness of our hearts. We have armed Israel out of a desire to avoid them being pushed to their last resort.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Who has done better? Anywhere, anytime? Who has even come close to as low a civilian:combatant ratio in rooting forces out of a city that has not been evacuated?

Nobody, that's who.

Like I said, skull fuck the numbers doesn't change the fact that there are still hostages and Israel hasn't come close to ending Hamas.

In other words, pay no attention to unpleasant reality. They're Jews, therefore they're wrong.

 

[Elixir]

In other words, pay no attention to unpleasant reality. They're Jews, therefore they're wrong.

You misspelled "they're killing innocent people needlessly while failing to attain their stated objectives".
Leads one to suspect that their actual objectives are not as stated. Alternately, there's Einstein's definition of insanity...

 

[laughing dog]

Zackly. “Exemplary fashion” doesn’t include killing 10x civilians per combatant.
Fucking Bibi is a war (and other) criminal and Israel will be paying s huge price for coddling him for years or decades to come.

Check your memory. 10x is the typical ratio. Gaza looks like about 1.4x by raw numbers 1.1x excluding the known bad data.

What is you unbiased source for this claim?

Quit it with the derailing. We have discussed this previously.

Asking for a source is not a derail. Refusing to give a source is bad form. I asked because I have not seen any source that puts the ratio that low. Please produce the source for your claim. Otherwise your continued refusal suggests you pulled the numbers right out your ass.

 

[Elixir]

4,000 of the hospital records are a combination of clearly falsified data and real people who died before the war.

You examined them? All I'm asking for is where did you learn these amazing things.

 

[Elixir]

Oh, and what about this Israeli minister, Loren? Starving two millions Gazans isn’t genocide? And he came right out and admitted that the only reason they aren’t doing just that is because the world won’t let them. So they are conducting a slower genocide instead, using bombs and bullets against innocent and defenseless civilians, a huge number of them children.

Siege is a valid tactic in war.

If you want to see actual genocide:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/09/sudan-darfur-kutum-massacre-rsf/

But it's Iran behind it so the world press basically ignores it.

Or, it's 73 lives lost vs >40,000... but hey.. sand niggers, y'know?